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Dear Bioware, A Comment on Military Protocol


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#226
Zulu_DFA

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Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Although I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the thread but doesn't everybody find it ridiculous that Garrus and Zaeed aim their sniper rifles at Thane in close quarters. If I know anything about weapons it's that Sniper Rifles are not close quarter weapons. The same goes for Overlord, when Garrus shoots that Geth in the Geth ship he shoots it in close quarters with a sniper rifle. It just looks stupid, it's not like it's COD and someone thinks he's great because he got a "no scope" with a sniper rifle at close quarters.


1. ME2 sniper rifles have effective range of ~75-80 meters, which makes them kinda close quarter weapons.

2. It's more natural to aim a sniper rifle at an apparent hostile 5 meters away (if it's already in your hands), than put it away and reach for the sidearm, thus giving the apparent hostile a green light to gun you down.

#227
Splinter Cell 108

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Although I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the thread but doesn't everybody find it ridiculous that Garrus and Zaeed aim their sniper rifles at Thane in close quarters. If I know anything about weapons it's that Sniper Rifles are not close quarter weapons. The same goes for Overlord, when Garrus shoots that Geth in the Geth ship he shoots it in close quarters with a sniper rifle. It just looks stupid, it's not like it's COD and someone thinks he's great because he got a "no scope" with a sniper rifle at close quarters.


1. ME2 sniper rifles have effective range of ~75-80 meters, which makes them kinda close quarter weapons.

2. It's more natural to aim a sniper rifle at an apparent hostile 5 meters away (if it's already in your hands), than put it away and reach for the sidearm, thus giving the apparent hostile a green light to gun you down.


Sounds like something that would never happen in reality. Imagine if SWAT did something as dumb as that. I think it's more possible for a hostile to be less intimidated by someone using a sniper rifle at close quarters than somone with a handgun.

#228
Elhanan

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While I was in US Army AIT, I happened to be shopping at the base shops; a strip-mall type of facility. I have always become nervous when encountering authority - one of those that auto-slows, and starts checking everything when the police are in their rear view mirror - and was trying to avoid meeting any higher ranking personel; just wanted some cheaper civie gear, and had several such items in hand.. But as my usual luck would have it, a Lt rounded the nearest corner, and I smartly fired a crisp salute... with my off hand.

Now Murphy must have been off duty that weekend, for the Lt did not catch it, but I certainly did. My adreneline kicked in, and I bolted into the nearest cafeteria for a fast drink of water, and a few quickened breaths of air after my narrow escape with the front leaning rest position.

Thanks for the post, the good pair of eyes, and the moment of humorous reflection for this ME newbie on Day 1.

#229
Zulu_DFA

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Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Although I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the thread but doesn't everybody find it ridiculous that Garrus and Zaeed aim their sniper rifles at Thane in close quarters. If I know anything about weapons it's that Sniper Rifles are not close quarter weapons. The same goes for Overlord, when Garrus shoots that Geth in the Geth ship he shoots it in close quarters with a sniper rifle. It just looks stupid, it's not like it's COD and someone thinks he's great because he got a "no scope" with a sniper rifle at close quarters.


1. ME2 sniper rifles have effective range of ~75-80 meters, which makes them kinda close quarter weapons.

2. It's more natural to aim a sniper rifle at an apparent hostile 5 meters away (if it's already in your hands), than put it away and reach for the sidearm, thus giving the apparent hostile a green light to gun you down.


Sounds like something that would never happen in reality. Imagine if SWAT did something as dumb as that. I think it's more possible for a hostile to be less intimidated by someone using a sniper rifle at close quarters than somone with a handgun.


I mean while you fiddle with your guns the hostile can gun you down, then strike a cigarette and gun you down once more. You don't want to give him a chance for that. That's why you point at him the piece you have in your hands at the moment.

As for the SWAT, the SWAT snipers have near zero probability to get into close quarters combat. And the SWAT men that go in close quarters combat never carry sniper rifles. That's called "Tactics".

#230
Splinter Cell 108

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Although I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the thread but doesn't everybody find it ridiculous that Garrus and Zaeed aim their sniper rifles at Thane in close quarters. If I know anything about weapons it's that Sniper Rifles are not close quarter weapons. The same goes for Overlord, when Garrus shoots that Geth in the Geth ship he shoots it in close quarters with a sniper rifle. It just looks stupid, it's not like it's COD and someone thinks he's great because he got a "no scope" with a sniper rifle at close quarters.


1. ME2 sniper rifles have effective range of ~75-80 meters, which makes them kinda close quarter weapons.

2. It's more natural to aim a sniper rifle at an apparent hostile 5 meters away (if it's already in your hands), than put it away and reach for the sidearm, thus giving the apparent hostile a green light to gun you down.


Sounds like something that would never happen in reality. Imagine if SWAT did something as dumb as that. I think it's more possible for a hostile to be less intimidated by someone using a sniper rifle at close quarters than somone with a handgun.


I mean while you fiddle with your guns the hostile can gun you down, then strike a cigarette and gun you down once more. You don't want to give him a chance for that. That's why you point at him the piece you have in your hands at the moment.

As for the SWAT, the SWAT snipers have near zero probability to get into close quarters combat. And the SWAT men that go in close quarters combat never carry sniper rifles. That's called "Tactics".



Of course in a life and death situation people react differently. Either way there is a big chance that hostile will gun him down. Sniper rifles are innacurate at close range. What if he misses, then what? I know that a SWAT sniper is never going to go close quarters but they are supposed to be trained for anything. What if the terrorists, opposing force or whatever are trained, don't you think they would know how to take down a sniper. Is the sniper going to go at it Rambo and just try and take down the terrorists with his sniper rifle at close quarters. There's a reason for them to have sidearms. If anything like that was never expected then why waste resources providing sidearms for snipers. What are they going to do with them? Snipe someone with a pistol? Of course not.

Modifié par Splinter Cell 108, 26 juin 2010 - 02:31 .


#231
Elhanan

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First, 'weapon'; not 'gun'. And fiddling with either during combat is always a poor choice, and would likely get you shot.

Secondly, smoking breaks lighting restrictions, and can also get one shot. As taught to me, watch someone light up at dusk sometime.

Finally, no expert at all, but I was trained to fire a rifle from the hip should the worst ever occur; prepare for any eventuality.

#232
atheelogos

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Old thread is old

#233
atheelogos

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

This thread is delightful. So I'm pulling a Lazarus trick at it.

It will probably get locked

#234
Guest_KEffect72_*

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I thought this thread had died a while back.

#235
TheKillerAngel

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There's no real reason for people to change the tradition of saluting in a certain style - I don't see that happening. Furthermore, at least for the Alliance crew that you work with, they definitely have origins from Western (quite likely US/NATO) militaries. Even if it is X years in the future, if the precedent for saluting a certain way has been deeply ingrained, I don't see it changing much.




#236
Christmas Ape

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Nerd rage takes all forms, I guess.

#237
Twisted-Indoctrine

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Eh from my point of view dude had no head dress and was in battle dress for security purposes.



While in battledress we'd never be devoid of a helmet except for special circumstances, (I'd say monitoring a relatively unknown Synthetic Intellect with currently undisclosed moties constitutes a special circumstance) and even so would be voided of salutary protocal. Standing at attention would be courtesy but not an expectation in such a situation. At that particualr moment you arein the presence of a potential enemy threat and betraying the rank of those around you could get someone killed (snipers are one of the leadign influences is the protocal decisions to drop the salute ritual while in enemy scenarios).



It's hard to say really, the left hand is a little of guard catching but it could perhaps be chalked up to absolute nerves in that case. The man isin the presence of one of the greatest potential threat organic life let alone humanity has ever encountered and he's alone in a room with it. It's a synthetic mobile form easily capable of feats well beyond a humans body to endure, basically it could without warning and well beyond the human mind and body's ability to react snap his neck and throw his crumpled body across the room like a ragdoll before immediately attempting to breach the AI core remotely. Not much you can do against a threat like that wen you're alone ina room with it. Were I an officer I could forgive nerves in that case - though I'd likely mention the error I don't think a harsh reprimand would be suitable given the situation - he's the bravest man on the damned ship in the most immediately difficult situation, all things considered.

#238
KitsuneRommel

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Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Although I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the thread but doesn't everybody find it ridiculous that Garrus and Zaeed aim their sniper rifles at Thane in close quarters. If I know anything about weapons it's that Sniper Rifles are not close quarter weapons.


Meh. My ME1 adept used ONLY sniper rifles. Later on you don't even need to zoom to hit in CQ.

#239
Neotribe

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Seriously? It's not as if our contemporary alliances' member forces standardize all of their culture and tradition. Things like standardization/compatibility of ammunition, ordnance and support/logistical systems are a lot more important than the styles or protocols governing salutes, uniforms, and the like.  It's a lot more important for you to be able to chamber the same ammunition I'm carrying than it is for our salutes to look the same.   It's a lot more important for weapon lugs and hardpoints to mate cleanly than for rank structures and courtesies to do so. 

Image IPB


More at http://usmilitary.ab...fo/a/salute.htm .


Also, as to the hybridization of infantry and naval terminology, as well as admixture of styles, I think we can go so far as to allow for some of that having happened when the Terran military structure was streamlined with planetary political unification and transformation into a spacefaring military. For instance, it might have become acceptable to refer to a spacefaring infantryman as a "trooper," "soldier" or "Marine" (the first two being acceptable generics after service mergers) with "sailor" being left by the wayside (too specifically oceanic, perhaps.)  OTOH, some writers posit that military inertia and rivalry would be strong enough to carry the traditional service divisions to the stars--witness the plays on interservice rivlary that appear in Starship Troopers or Babylon 5, just to name two.

The OP's call for better versimilitude is appreciated even by a civvie like me, but at the same time I would expect some things to be different (though still grounded in familiar traditions) in a united Terran space force.  Such as disappearance of certain details like a cover being required for utility dress.  It occurs to me that submariners are probably the closest thing we have to spacers in military service today. Do they wear their covers while standing a watch on patrol? And if so, was it that way in the earlier days of the sumbarine service when everyone was covered in grease and sweat? Granted, the Normandy is a lot closer to a nuclear boomer than a diesel WWI II boat.  And what about their equipment operators who wear headsets of some kind? Can they salute w/o a cover? (Did I say all that right?) It seems like over time such details could easily be eroded/reshaped by the shift from planetary to space operations and the characterstics, patterns and exigencies of such operations.

Protocols governing combined operations would be anyone's guess, but ME doesn't really have to deal with that kind of neurotically detailed backstory unless they want to turn it into an MMO. In the current games, you operate as a SPECTRE or Cerberus operative--both essentially paramilitary operations (one hegemonic, one private) that operate outside of both Alliance and Council standard military hierarchies.

Modifié par Neotribe, 26 juin 2010 - 11:17 .


#240
ilikeicehockey

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well the thing is Cerberus is not a military organization. They're more of a human mercenary splinter group. Thus their military standards might not be what you expect.

#241
FuturePasTimeCE

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ilikeicehockey wrote...

well the thing is Cerberus is not a military organization. They're more of a human mercenary splinter group. Thus their military standards might not be what you expect.

the alliance is a military... soooo mr. sheppard still works for them as a spectre and all... so yeah.

I bet the alliance be having some great food service in the future bro...


totally wish that starfleet alliance food replicator was real... i'd be one fat ass commander guy at the citadel station...

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 26 juin 2010 - 11:16 .


#242
Neotribe

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Try not to slap the [SPACEBAR] quite so quickly. The SPECTREs work for the Council, not the Alliance. They are a typical Hollywoodized hybridization of a intel agency,  secret police, covert action force and paramilitary org. They are not a standard unit in any Citadel or Terran military outfit. (i.e. Alliance command, C-Sec or combined-species Council Fleet.)

Modifié par Neotribe, 26 juin 2010 - 11:26 .


#243
Bron Avery

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I don't like the military cause it makes people single minded, or only know how to take orders. Anyone who says other wise has ether not been in the military and never knew someone in the military or is an unintelligent person in the military who can't see what has happened to them. I not saying OP knows this, and I am not saying it's not necessary to have an army. I will say that I take orders from no man, unless I have no reason to oblige, I will now hide behind a flame-shield.

On topic, It is incorrect, and I agree with OP entirely.




Edit: One more thing, the point about
civilians saluting, is correct factually, but you don't get the
point. The only character who does it is a stupid kid, and that is
mainly just adding to that.. If it offends you, then I do not believe
your a solider.

Modifié par Bron Avery, 26 juin 2010 - 11:31 .


#244
FuturePasTimeCE

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Neotribe wrote...

Try not to slap the [SPACEBAR] quite so quickly. The SPECTREs work for the Council, not the Alliance. They are a typical Hollywoodized hybridization of a intel agency,  secret police, covert action force and paramilitary org. They are not a standard unit in any Citadel or Terran military outfit.

well thurr... I guess sheppard commander the spectre is above the space alliance military... the space alliance military to me is above Cerberus... so yeah... 

M E 1: more significance in rank > M E 2:huh:

#245
FuturePasTimeCE

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Bron Avery wrote...

I don't like the military cause it makes people single minded, or only know how to take orders. Anyone who says other wise has ether not been in the military and never knew someone in the military or is an unintelligent person in the military who can't see what has happened to them. I not saying OP knows this, and I am not saying it's not necessary to have an army. I will say that I take orders from no man, unless I have no reason to oblige, I will now hide behind a flame-shield.

On topic, It is incorrect, and I agree with OP entirely.

it's best to join a retarded organization that cutthroat it's own members instead (as in kill off their own employees/members? coincidental )... like the greek cerberus... it's great to always end up in bloodshed within it's own containment (like cerberus' project overlord going wrong thanks to cerberus, remember seeing all of those dead bodies throughout the level...or prior before hand with the  coincidental collectors attacks while investigating them... nice) vs. somehow getting into spontaneous conflict related to the military that you agreed to be apart of and likely expected to see from time after time.

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 26 juin 2010 - 11:32 .


#246
Neotribe

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When Shepard joined the SPECTREs he became dual-hatted--he was both an Alliance officer and a SPECTRE agent. He has the option of downplaying Alliance interests and ignoring the chain of command and military SOP when operating as a SPECTRE, but at the price of offending or disappointing certain members of the Alliance who would prefer he remain loyal to the Alliance despite his newfound license. This tension plays out in a few minor plot-points in ME1.

Cerberus is a private interest -- a human-centrist splinter group, an elite cabal, or possibly a dissident/insurgent organization, depending upon how you want to look at it. Cerberus does not recognize the final authority of the Alliance or the Terran leadership (whatever that is) to dictate policy, and does not trust the Council to act in humanity's interests either.

Modifié par Neotribe, 26 juin 2010 - 11:36 .


#247
Bron Avery

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FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Bron Avery wrote...

*snip*

it's best to join a retarded organization that cutthroat it's own members instead (as in kill off their own employees/members)... like the greek cerberus... it's great to always end up in bloodshed within it's own containment (like cerberus' project overlord going wrong thanks to cerberus, remember seeing all of those dead bodies throughout the level) vs. somehow getting into spontaneous conflict related to the military that you agreed to be apart of and likely suspected to see from time after time.




Are you cereal? (Cookie if get reference) I do not want to risk
my life, and being forced into it does not float my boat ether. If
you wish to risk your life along with giving away what little
freedoms we as just regular civilians hardy have, then that is your
chose. I would rather keep my life and my dignity.

#248
FuturePasTimeCE

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Neotribe wrote...

When Shepard joined the SPECTREs he became dual-hatted--he was both an Alliance officer and a SPECTRE agent. He has the option of ignoring the chain of command and military SOP as a SPECTRE, but at the price of offending or disappointing certain members of the Alliance. This tension plays out in a few minor plot-points in ME1.

Cerberus is a private interest -- a human-centrist splinter group, an elite cabal, or possibly a dissident/insurgent organization, depending upon how you want to look at it. Cerberus does not recognize the final authority of the Alliance or the Terran leadership (whatever that is) to dictate policy, and does not trust the Council to act in humanity's interests either.

but I say you had less complications and or problems working for the alliance military (mass effect 1) than you have with Cerberus (mass effect 2) having "interests" in you and all (and you working for them)










#249
FuturePasTimeCE

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Bron Avery wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Bron Avery wrote...

*snip*

it's best to join a retarded organization that cutthroat it's own members instead (as in kill off their own employees/members)... like the greek cerberus... it's great to always end up in bloodshed within it's own containment (like cerberus' project overlord going wrong thanks to cerberus, remember seeing all of those dead bodies throughout the level) vs. somehow getting into spontaneous conflict related to the military that you agreed to be apart of and likely suspected to see from time after time.




Are you cereal? (Cookie if get reference) I do not want to risk
my life, and being forced into it does not float my boat ether. If
you wish to risk your life along with giving away what little
freedoms we as just regular civilians hardy have, then that is your
chose. I would rather keep my life and my dignity.

right... because your life is much more safer working for Cerberus a Private Interest Group than knowing you're working for the military (knowing there are risk factors involved)

#250
chessplayer209

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It's been said before in this thread but whatever I'll say it again... the military force portrayed in Mass Effect is not the US Military ... it's a different organization that may well have its own protocol. This is a non-issue.