266 réponses à ce sujet

[SuperMedbh]

It's true, we all have our areas of expertise and wince when we see how they're depicted in popular media. I'm a costume buff, and don't get me started on historical movies (bras in a "medieval" Dragon Age? C'mon, guys)



That said, I bet the Alliance navy has different standards, as different species have different traditions. For example:



Turians salute, but they never call "ten-hut", as they're constantly at attention. Just ask Garrus.



Krogan respectfully wait until you salute first, so they can take that moment to disembowel you.



Asari salute like William the Marshal did. Why William? Oh....some things about my maiden years should remain private.



The Hanar salute with their front tentacles and a spray of ultraviolet light. Blasto salutes however that one desires, when that one desires.



(hopefully some of you can come up with some that are actually funny )

[Darth_Trethon]

Shin Yodama wrote...

I hear you War Axe, it just jarred with me when I saw it (and he does it all the time) because my country's military doesn't.

Do you guys have training for leaving the military ways behind you when leaving the military? We have a bit in the US, it's minor...only a couple of weeks but they are there to essentially inform us that once out we need to be able to function in the civilian world and snapping at everything outside of the protocol you used to follow is not the way to go.

I see too many former military people still act like what they were ordered to do and their former status bears relevance on those around them.

[WarAxe7]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Shin Yodama wrote...

I hear you War Axe, it just jarred with me when I saw it (and he does it all the time) because my country's military doesn't.

Do you guys have training for leaving the military ways behind you when leaving the military? We have a bit in the US, it's minor...only a couple of weeks but they are there to essentially inform us that once out we need to be able to function in the civilian world and snapping at everything outside of the protocol you used to follow is not the way to go.

I see too many former military people still act like what they were ordered to do and their former status bears relevance on those around them.

I don't know why you're trying to be peacably inquisitive with us.  I still think you are the resident troll who would not relent his position even if Commander Shepherd herself (I play FemShep) were to land at your parents' house, waltz up to your bedroom, kick open your door leaving a boot print on the Twilight poster, and tell you, "Yes, Darth, in the future we still salute with the right hand... because it's tradition."

That being said... yes, many former military people carry around much of the experience, leadership, and discipline they learned.  You don't think it "bears relevence on those around them"???   Employers would disagree with you.

[StowyMcStowstow]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

WarAxe7 wrote...


Darth_Trethon... you are an idiot.  I can tell you right now you have never served in any military, and that you have no idea whatsoever about military history around the world and throughout the ages... nor do you probably have a girlfriend... or a job.  I hope you fall in a pool of lava and die.

175 years ago militaries were saluting with the right hand... not just today.  ANd it's been every civilized military across the world... not just the US.  No surpise, though, to people with IQ's above 28... because almost every single military tradition and protocol today has been handed down from the previous generations... who got them from previous generations... back nearly as far as we can attest.  And these will passed forward as they have been.

Idiot.

All I see is a lot of personal attacks directed at angering me and diminishing me and not enough argument. Humanity is the new kid on the playground joining an already established interspecies military protocol that would be nothing like humanity's. Then things are completely different in space where you are dealing with a lot of new dangers and threats than you do on the ground or sea on earth. As such humanity would be forced to change a lot of things to adapt to the new interspecies protocol and be able to communicate with friendly forces of other species and to adapt to entire new sets of threats.

Yeah... no.

You entire theory is based on the theory that space causes us to change protocol. No, it wouldn't. Shepard was on an Alliance vessel in the first game, and a Cerberus vessel in the second game. BOTH are indepaendent of the Citadel, and both are EXTREMELY independent of the Turians, Salarians, or Asaris military protocols. What you are saying is that humanity's military in its entirety changed to become more like everyone elses. That makes no sense whatsoever, especially in Mass Effect 2, where Shepard isn't even Alliance. And it makes even LESS sense because it was already established in ME 1 that the Alliance = Earth, and it has already been established in this topic that militry protocol of most countries is somewhat similar, and also that none of them salute with their left hand. If a new species were to adapt to interspecies protocol, wouldn't it be added into the current military protocol? Between other species, it makes sense, but when dealing with humans in the same military as you, it doesn't make sense to change what works. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

On top of that, the part about changing to fit new dangers in space? If something  worked 200 years ago when we were fighting in open battlefields with muskets and cannons, why would it make sense that it would change, when we are still using the same protocols today? Sure, some protocols might be bypassed for efficiency and safety's sake  (esp. in combat situations), but your point of changing simply because we are now in space does not hold any water. Speaking of water, it IS a Navy, and a space ship is basically a submarine with laser cannons.  

[tango jack]

I salute the OP for his attention to detail and he is probably right about the things he says when it comes to military protocol however there are somethings that are required when telling a story in visual media. In these areas a modocom of inaccuracy are OK and attention to reality can actually detract from the story telling and emotional delivery that you are trying to get across to the viewer.

Example: Miranda saluting to Shepard was to show a tranferance of loyalty and respect to Shepard and away from Cerberus even though she was not actually required to do it but it helped the audience to quickly understand something that may have take many lines of dialogue to do.

I suppose its about the storys message and impact rather than every little detail and why many devs talk about authenticity over realism as something can be basically authentic to most viewers and expedite the story in a timely fashion without being slowed too much by small things.

I,m not saying anything against the OP here as I was in the Army so I know he is reasonbly correct about what he is saying but its just that those things and many others cannot be catered for completely as its the story that is the most important thing in a visual media which has to be paced correctly and enjoyed by the masses.

This post was very interesting to read anyway and I learned something about U.S military protocol so to the OP thanks for that.

Tango

Modifié par tango jack, 02 avril 2010 - 01:55 .

[Darth_Trethon]

Employers look for people who can be on time, do their job, lead where requried WITHOUT the stick up their behind.



It's true they take into consideration military service BUT go in there and act like you did in the military and you'll be back on the street in no time. In the civilian world you don't yell at those around and you don't fight like you used to because you don't have the authority, right or leaders that can look the other way without getting fired themselves. In the civilian world you don't have as much right through rank and you need to be able to lead more through charisma.



The point-rank system for picking up rank through E-5 is a complete joke.

[chem light]

Nice thread. Bump. One more tiny thing. I notice both Kaidan and Ash refer to themselves as "soldiers," but they're Marines. I'm in no way hating on the army, but at least in the US, if you call a Marine a soldier, you're going to get a bad reaction. Just a little factoid.

[Darth Drago]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

..Humanity is the new kid on the playground joining an already established interspecies military protocol that would be nothing like humanity's. Then things are completely different in space where you are dealing with a lot of new dangers and threats than you do on the ground or sea on earth. As such humanity would be forced to change a lot of things to adapt to the new interspecies protocol and be able to communicate with friendly forces of other species and to adapt to entire new sets of threats.

The saluting soldier has a rifle with no sling in his right hand if I remember correctly. An explanation could simply be that saluting became acceptable with both hands to diminish the risk of a stray shot in a spaceship not to mention that changing the weapon holding hand at a moment's notice would be awkward at best. A stray shot on earth or sea might get one person killed but a stray shot on a spaceship can destroy it and kill everyone aboard in any number of ways.

-Last I checked the human Alliance, just like each of the other races have their own separate military. They are not Star Trek Federation like where different races serve full time on starships. The same unified human military protocols would be enforced in Alliance ships. Changes based on space travel will not change basic military traditions like saluting. They will not have a need to adapt anything since each race has their own military. The only thing they will need to adjust to is the customs, military or otherwise of each of these races.

As for the rifle caring person saluting, he still likely did it wrong.

“When armed with a rifle, two different levels of formality are available when saluting. The most formal method is called "present arms"; the rifle is brought to the vertical, muzzle up, in front of center of the chest with the trigger away from the body. The hands hold the stock close to the positions they would have if the rifle were being fired, though the trigger is not touched. Less formal salutes include the "order arms salute" and the "shoulder arms salutes." These are most often given by a sentry to a low-ranking superior who does not rate the full "present arms" salute. In the "order arms salute," the rifle rests on its butt by the sentry's right foot, held near the muzzle by the sentry's right hand, and does not move. The sentry brings his flattened left hand across his body and touches the rifle near its muzzle. When the rifle is being carried on the shoulder, a similar gesture is used in which the flattened free hand is brought across the body to touch the rifle near the rear of the receiver.” -from the wiki page I had a lint to earlier.

[Darth_Trethon]

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

Yeah... no.

You entire theory is based on the theory that space causes us to change protocol. No, it wouldn't. Shepard was on an Alliance vessel in the first game, and a Cerberus vessel in the second game. BOTH are indepaendent of the Citadel, and both are EXTREMELY independent of the Turians, Salarians, or Asaris military protocols. What you are saying is that humanity's military in its entirety changed to become more like everyone elses. That makes no sense whatsoever, especially in Mass Effect 2, where Shepard isn't even Alliance. And it makes even LESS sense because it was already established in ME 1 that the Alliance = Earth, and it has already been established in this topic that militry protocol of most countries is somewhat similar, and also that none of them salute with their left hand. If a new species were to adapt to interspecies protocol, wouldn't it be added into the current military protocol? Between other species, it makes sense, but when dealing with humans in the same military as you, it doesn't make sense to change what works. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

On top of that, the part about changing to fit new dangers in space? If something  worked 200 years ago when we were fighting in open battlefields with muskets and cannons, why would it make sense that it would change, when we are still using the same protocols today? Sure, some protocols might be bypassed for efficiency and safety's sake  (esp. in combat situations), but your point of changing simply because we are now in space does not hold any water. Speaking of water, it IS a Navy, and a space ship is basically a submarine with laser cannons.  

The alliance is essentially protecting the citadel now as the other forces suffered greatly and in terms of the mayday signal, that occured long before Shepard joined cerberus back when he was a Spectre and answering to the Council. So that DOES bear relevance on interspecies relations. Your entire post alliance part doesn't bear relevance on the error that was brought to complaint.

As for the rifle part...that applies bith with/without the alliance. At any rate some of the interspecies protocols are sure to rub off onto rogue organizations if only to blend in. Especially Cerberus that is powerfull enough to threaten the council and can infiltrate any organization. Blending in would be high priority for them.

[Darth_Trethon]

Darth Drago wrote...


-Last I checked the human Alliance, just like each of the other races have their own separate military. They are not Star Trek Federation like where different races serve full time on starships. The same unified human military protocols would be enforced in Alliance ships. Changes based on space travel will not change basic military traditions like saluting. They will not have a need to adapt anything since each race has their own military. The only thing they will need to adjust to is the customs, military or otherwise of each of these races.

As for the rifle caring person saluting, he still likely did it wrong.

“When armed with a rifle, two different levels of formality are available when saluting. The most formal method is called "present arms"; the rifle is brought to the vertical, muzzle up, in front of center of the chest with the trigger away from the body. The hands hold the stock close to the positions they would have if the rifle were being fired, though the trigger is not touched. Less formal salutes include the "order arms salute" and the "shoulder arms salutes." These are most often given by a sentry to a low-ranking superior who does not rate the full "present arms" salute. In the "order arms salute," the rifle rests on its butt by the sentry's right foot, held near the muzzle by the sentry's right hand, and does not move. The sentry brings his flattened left hand across his body and touches the rifle near its muzzle. When the rifle is being carried on the shoulder, a similar gesture is used in which the flattened free hand is brought across the body to touch the rifle near the rear of the receiver.” -from the wiki page I had a lint to earlier.

Completely different weapons, wouldn't handle like your average M-16 A2 standard issue service rifle.

Signifficantly shorter, fatter and contract. You don't do present arms with them....period.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 02 avril 2010 - 02:04 .

[Shin Yodama]

Last I checked, Ash's specialisation was labeled 'Soldier' - I remember investing several points in it.



But I hear ya Chem Light, she does get called Marine by Shepard on first encounter, and I believe she refers to herself as a marine too. So, it's not perfect, but it is a damn enjoyable game.

[SuperMedbh]

chem light wrote...

Nice thread. Bump. One more tiny thing. I notice both Kaidan and Ash refer to themselves as "soldiers," but they're Marines. I'm in no way hating on the army, but at least in the US, if you call a Marine a soldier, you're going to get a bad reaction. Just a little factoid.

Good catch.  I live in a Navy/Marine town, actually, and I know that one (the Marine in question was polite about it, though).  But Ash probably isn't a Marine, she's a Chief, which is a senior enlisted rank in the Navy.

[Shin Yodama]

People, please don't feed the Troll.

[StowyMcStowstow]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Darth Drago wrote...


-Last I checked the human Alliance, just like each of the other races have their own separate military. They are not Star Trek Federation like where different races serve full time on starships. The same unified human military protocols would be enforced in Alliance ships. Changes based on space travel will not change basic military traditions like saluting. They will not have a need to adapt anything since each race has their own military. The only thing they will need to adjust to is the customs, military or otherwise of each of these races.

As for the rifle caring person saluting, he still likely did it wrong.

“When armed with a rifle, two different levels of formality are available when saluting. The most formal method is called "present arms"; the rifle is brought to the vertical, muzzle up, in front of center of the chest with the trigger away from the body. The hands hold the stock close to the positions they would have if the rifle were being fired, though the trigger is not touched. Less formal salutes include the "order arms salute" and the "shoulder arms salutes." These are most often given by a sentry to a low-ranking superior who does not rate the full "present arms" salute. In the "order arms salute," the rifle rests on its butt by the sentry's right foot, held near the muzzle by the sentry's right hand, and does not move. The sentry brings his flattened left hand across his body and touches the rifle near its muzzle. When the rifle is being carried on the shoulder, a similar gesture is used in which the flattened free hand is brought across the body to touch the rifle near the rear of the receiver.” -from the wiki page I had a lint to earlier.

Completely different weapons, wouldn't handle like your average M-16 A2 standard issue service rifle.

Signifficantly shorter, fatter and contract. You don't do present arms with them....period.

Why the f**k not? A service rifle is a service rifle is a service rifle. the standard AR would be about as big as what, an M4? and a bit fatter? It is a bit taller and more full. no magazine, and that's it. Unless it is on his back, in which case he should be saluting with his right hand.

Protecting the Citadel has nothing to do with how the Alliance conducts their protocols in their own ships. maybe in dealing with other species, but not ON THEIR OWN VESSEL.

[Darth_Trethon]

Shin Yodama wrote...

People, please don't feed the Troll.

You just can't get over the fact that things change. You youself admitted that the OP got things wrong in terms of your military and yet you defend that nothing would change in a multispecies community with completely different weapons and equipment. In the ME universe you literally had the ground pulled from under your feet, humanity's traditions would change a lot faster as we'd have to deal on 24/7 basis with aliens. Arguments for things like "present arms" with ME weapons is ridiculous at best and arguments about Cerberus not caring for interspecies protocol would be dead wrong....especially for an organization that broke off from the alliance and has a high capability for infiltration.

[Digifi]

I'll throw this out there. My customs and courtesies were so ingrained that if I had a free hand, it was always my right hand so that I could properly greet others. Many human greetings are right handed, shakes, salutes, obscene gestures so I'm good with the original suggestion that all salutes should be right handed.



Cerberus is rogue, true, but they are also human centric. And these aren't infiltrators on this ship, they are your crew so it would follow that they would do things in a human way as a celebration of humanity and in support of Cerberus' goals.



I guess in the end neither way of thinking about it is totally "correct". What is correct is whatever Bioware decides to do going forward and while some of us think it would be cool to honor some common traditions, by no means is anybody saying that they have to (and I'm certainly NOT suggesting that they patch it for ME2, that would be a waste of resources). Although, if the only people who happen to care that the salute is left handed are military types, and Bioware has no overriding cannon reason for left hand saluting, then what would be the harm in checking that box and making them all right handed in ME3?

[chem light]

SuperMedbh wrote...

chem light wrote...

Nice thread. Bump. One more tiny thing. I notice both Kaidan and Ash refer to themselves as "soldiers," but they're Marines. I'm in no way hating on the army, but at least in the US, if you call a Marine a soldier, you're going to get a bad reaction. Just a little factoid.

Good catch.  I live in a Navy/Marine town, actually, and I know that one (the Marine in question was polite about it, though).  But Ash probably isn't a Marine, she's a Chief, which is a senior enlisted rank in the Navy.

Yeah, I've kind given up figuring out the in game rank structure.  I think they smushed the Navy and Marine Corps together.  They were like, let's see...E-7 in the Navy: Chief.  E-7 in the Marine Corps: Gunnery Sergeant.  And....Gunnery Chief! 

Anywho, it's a totally minor thing and I don't even know if it carries outside the States.  

[Schroing]

The Alliance isn't an American organization.

[Darth_Trethon]

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

Why the f**k not? A service rifle is a service rifle is a service rifle. the standard AR would be about as big as what, an M4? and a bit fatter? It is a bit taller and more full. no magazine, and that's it. Unless it is on his back, in which case he should be saluting with his right hand.

Protecting the Citadel has nothing to do with how the Alliance conducts their protocols in their own ships. maybe in dealing with other species, but not ON THEIR OWN VESSEL.

It's shorter and contracts......automatically......we don't have specifics on what causes the contraction but you don't see any present arms in ME.....it should be reasonable that with the COMPLETELY 1000% different weapons the rules changed.....that should be enough. The magazines are gone and now there are heat sinks that don't go where you are used to see M-16 magazines go. hell there can be a billion reasons for why you can't do present arms with completely different weapons that magically contract and extend and stay attached to your back only by some mysteryous force....magnetic?.....ME field? all kinds of explanations. Things changed.

[chem light]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Completely different weapons, wouldn't handle like your average M-16 A2 standard issue service rifle.

Signifficantly shorter, fatter and contract. You don't do present arms with them....period.

*grins*  As long as we're being picky, the A2 is going by the wayside.  Most units have gone to M-16 A4 or the M-4 now.

And now I have a really funny picture in my head of a parade deck of future Marines  trying to do manual of arms with the collapsible Mass Effect wpns.  People accidently deploying them at the wrong times and hitting themselves in the face...somebody being a smart alec and calling, "fix bayonets."  Oh yeah.  THat would be HILARIOUS!  

Modifié par chem light, 02 avril 2010 - 02:26 .

[Darth_Trethon]

Schroing wrote...

The Alliance isn't an American organization.

That's what I've been saying since this thread started but they're as reasonable as a brick wall.

[Darth_Trethon]

chem light wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Completely different weapons, wouldn't handle like your average M-16 A2 standard issue service rifle.

Signifficantly shorter, fatter and contract. You don't do present arms with them....period.

*grins*  As long as we're being picky, the A2 is going by the wayside.  Most units of and M-16 A4 our the M-4 now.

And now I have a really funny picture in my head of a parade deck of future Marines  trying to do manual of arms with the collapsible Mass Effect wpns.  People accidently deploying them at the wrong times and hitting themselves in the face...somebody being a smart alec and calling, "fix bayonets."  Oh yeah.  THat would be HILARIOUS!  

Hehehehehe yeah I deffinitely hear that.

[xI extremist Ix]

I guess things are a little different in the FAE.

[Grizzly46]

chem light wrote...

Nice thread. Bump. One more tiny thing. I notice both Kaidan and Ash refer to themselves as "soldiers," but they're Marines. I'm in no way hating on the army, but at least in the US, if you call a Marine a soldier, you're going to get a bad reaction. Just a little factoid.

But they both belong to the Alliance, which is not the US, but the humanity... Besides, there is another difference: today, on earth, you have, army, airforce and navy (to which most marine/amphibious forces belong). The Alliance Navy is a space navy, and thus it flies higher and further than the airforce, and it certainly don't sail as a water navy.

To the OP: I catched that blasted left-handed salute as well and that really sucked, but I must have missed those civilian salutes. But great job bringing it up: I think this is just part of a somewhat larger issue, namely having some basic facts in the game. I want gravity to work as on earth, I want light and sound to function as it should according to the physics and so on - otherwise, we could just ask the developers to smoke some pot and dream up something really wacky sci-fi. But I don't want something really wacky - I want sci-fi with the fundamentals in sci being the rule and not the exception. And for me other basics belong in that cathegory, including military protocols. Thank you.

[Nikblock]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Schroing wrote...

The Alliance isn't an American organization.

That's what I've been saying since this thread started but they're as reasonable as a brick wall.

Well you're acting like a know it all and being really rude.

Maybe thats why no wants to take you seriously.