266 réponses à ce sujet

[chem light]

The left handed salute isn't just against a particular military's protocol. If memory serves, the salute was originally meant to signal that one was unarmed and did not intend to fight you. ('Cause back in the day everyone was right handed 'cause the left was evil.)

[CrazyShuba]

I know what you mean. It's something small that only certain people would get bothered by.

It's kinda like when I'm watching a T.V. show or a movie, and I see a drummer holding his sticks the wrong way or puts them in his back pocket, or tries to play a marching snare with unwrapped sticks.

Just...ughhh.

[chem light]

CrazyShuba wrote...

I know what you mean. It's something small that only certain people would get bothered by.
It's kinda like when I'm watching a T.V. show or a movie, and I see a drummer holding his sticks the wrong way or puts them in his back pocket, or tries to play a marching snare with unwrapped sticks.
Just...ughhh.

I like to mitigate inaccuracies by making them into a drinking game.  Plop in an old episode of JAG, one of the recent military movies, and grab a shot glass.   Makes customs and courtesies fun!

[Lightice_av]

I don't think that the Systems Alliance would resort to reinventing the wheel just because it is a newly formed body. It would probably take some sort of "best practices" approach and regiment things along those lines. The most familiar military protocols arguably belong to the US Military, so it might be inclined to adopt those policies instead of making up their own.

Arguably nothing. The novels imply that the United States doesn't even exist any more in its current form in the Mass Effect universe. India is the new leading world power in this universe. Also, quite often when a new organization is being founded, it deliberately distances itself from its predeccessors by creating new standards and forms.
Also, military customs change like fashions; a bit over hundred years ago it was perfectly common for officers to have unique tailor-made uniforms for example. The idea that they wouldn't change in the next hundred years is absurd.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 02 avril 2010 - 04:14 .

[TheSeventhJedi]

Not to be a bosh'tet, because I respect where you're coming from, but I know exactly what you mean.  Seeing things done wrong, like say, using an apostrophe to pluralize a word, is just grating to someone who knows better.  Everyone's an expert at something, but no one's an expert at everything.

Also:  social.bioware.com/brc/683119

[Kid_SixXx]

Lightice_av wrote...

Arguably nothing. The novels imply that the United States doesn't even exist any more in its current form in the Mass Effect universe. India is the new leading world power in this universe. Also, quite often when a new organization is being founded, it deliberately distances itself from its predeccessors by creating new standards and forms.

Sadly, that information is only relevant to people who have read the Mass Effect novels.  Not everyone who plays the game has or wishes to have that frame of reference.

And which organizations are you talking about?  Are they miltiary in nature or are you just making a sweeping generalization that I should assume to be true? 

Lightice_av wrote...

Also, military customs change like fashions; a bit over hundred years ago it was perfectly common for officers to have unique tailor-made uniforms for example. The idea that they wouldn't change in the next hundred years is absurd.

Catering to the whims of command staff and the common practice of knowing which hand to salute with are two different animals.

What is absurd is the assumption that well established protocols and policies would change just for the sake of change.  The recent move to a modular force known as DoD Transformation has occurred because the nature of the enemy has changed (ie. more skirmishes on multiple fronts against enemies with a multi-national presence) and the equipment needed to fight such enemies has changed and not because anyone just woke up out of the blue and thought "Y'know, I think we should use Brigades instead of Divisions today." 

The Systems Alliance might have experienced that sort of structural transformation in present day ME2 since the primary threat against them post First Concact war came from fragmented antagonists like the Terminus Systems but once again they face more unified threats such as the Reapers and the Collectors. 

Just because the enemy is different doesn't automatically mean that protocols themselves would change.  You'd salute with the same hand you always did, regardless of who you were shooting at during that particular war.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 02 avril 2010 - 05:17 .

[Lightice_av]

Sadly, that information is only relevant to people who have read the Mass Effect novels. Not everyone who plays the game has or wishes to have that frame of reference.



And which organizations are you talking about? Are they miltiary in nature?

Nevertheless they're a valid part of the canon. And the assumption that every nation in the future has to follow in the footsteps of the United States is patently absurd, with or without that frame of reference.

And yes, military organizations have changed throughout the years in their customs in many ways, not to mention that different countries vary greatly in that regard. This shouldn't be news to anybody. The salute in its modern form isn't exactly old habit in and itself.

What is absurd is the assumption that well established protocols and policies would change just for the sake of change.

Protocols and policies established by one nation that may no longer have the influence it once had. Politics is a very good reason to adapt different customs - for example, since the Systems Alliance consists of dozens of nations, adapting the military customs of one of them would imply that they are in charge in ways that the rest of the member states would not appreciate. A fair compromise would be to adapt entirely new military protocol that doesn't exactly match with any of the member nations, for example.

[aries1001]

I 'm very much in favor of doing things right e.g. paying attention to all the little details in a game, or book, or movie. This ads credibility as well as believability to the game, or movie or book. And little these things like these should be as correct as possible, I find.

[the_one_54321]

Adding my +1 for accuracy in details!

[GOYAFIDO]

Hey as long as you know which end of the knife the bullets go in, you are GTG.



Hooah!

[Kid_SixXx]

Lightice_av wrote...

Nevertheless they're a valid part of the canon. And the assumption that every nation in the future has to follow in the footsteps of the United States is patently absurd, with or without that frame of reference.

1.  I concur that not having a frame of reference doesn't mean that the reference doesn't exist.

2. Thanks to treaty organizations like NATO and such, most military protocols for coalition nations tend to be unified anyway so no one really "follows" the US. 

In the present day, the US military actually strives to be a weird hybrid of the Dutch and the private sector, at least when it comes to logistics since the Dutch model is one of the better Performance Based Logistics systems implemented for their military.

Any any logistician knows that the logistical model to envy doesn't belong to the military.  It belongs to FedEx.

Lightice_av wrote...

Protocols and policies established by one nation that may no longer have the influence it once had. Politics is a very good reason to adapt different customs - for example, since the Systems Alliance consists of dozens of nations, adapting the military customs of one of them would imply that they are in charge in ways that the rest of the member states would not appreciate.

If the military practices of the one nation were the most effective for the most part then why would the other nations balk?

There is no such thing as second place in a war, so one would imagine that the other nations would readily adhere to practices adopted from the nation with the most successful military with a few minor tweaks thrown in for sake of circumstance especially if debate over such political claptrap kept the Systems Alliance military from accoomplishing what you'd assume to be their primary goals (aka to win wars and provide security for colonies).

As it relates to the canon, present day ME2 may have India as the primary roleplayer in Terran affairs but that doesn't mean that historically the Indians would have the best track record for their military.  If the ME canon is an offshoot of the real world, then historically that nation whose military has fared better in recent history would still be the US regardless of present-day quagmires.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 02 avril 2010 - 05:53 .

[Darth_Trethon]

So everything changes including weapons, technology, dangers, threats, environments and EVERYTHING else and yet some still argue on and on about how things wouldn't change......that's pretty ________ <----fill-in appropriate word for not very smart.



There a hundred billion reasons why things would change.

[Lightice_av]

2. Thanks to treaty organizations like NATO and such, most military protocols for coalition nations tend to be unified anyway so no one really "follows" the US.

SImilar but not identical. And NATO is a US lead organization in any case, so it's still a case of following - would NATO continue to exist in its current form if the US lost its political significance or broke up?

If the military practices of the one nation were the most effective for the most part then why would the other nations balk?

There is no such thing as the most effective way to salute. We're not talking about combat tactics here, but formalities.

[xDarkicex]

Lightice_av wrote...

I think the issue is overblown, because Cerberus (and even those former Alliance) are not from the United States of America Military, but are of the Systems Alliance.

So I think it is disrespectful you would be calling anothers followed Military code of conduct "wrong".

Amen. It's amazing how people keep forgetting that the military in this game does not belong to the United States of America, but to a worldwide coalition with its own traditions and customs that by no means directly coincide with the US military.

Once again another great point as I already said world wide alliance, also for the person saying all other nations would adopt the US military code because its the best, well first WTF? second wouldn't that mean we would adopt the turian style, which is already being shown In ME1 with the normandy adopting a turian style commend deck.

Maybe turians don't care about the same things humans do, like saluting with the left or right hand maybe they are mostly left handed, Just a thought.

[Mikinori]

Stanley Woo wrote...
I feel just as strongly about the way computers and the internet are portrayed in media, and get a little annoyed when things work as if by magic.

I feel the same way when it comes to IT in media. I understand the need in some shows or movies to keep it interesting and simple for people who do not work in IT but in some cases it's so far-fetched or ridiculous that it breaks the immersion for me.

I remember some movie or show I've seen a while ago where someone placed a credit card sized device on top of the MONITOR in some office to bypass the company firewall. Seeing things like these seriously hurts the movie's(and movie makers) credibility in my eyes.

In my opinion, it's all the little details like the ones mentioned in the OP that contribute to increasing the immersion and credibility of the movie or game.

To the OP: I have very little knowledge about military protocols but I totally understand how you feel and appreciate the information you shared and will surely pay more attention to that in my next play through. 

[SimonTheFrog]

Hm.... i somehow don't see the relevance of discussing whether right hand or left hand salute is appropriate or not.

It's fiction, so it's up to the writers to decide that.



But i agree that the characters on the Normandy and on the other ships and planets should have a rule-set of behavior and stick to it. I don't care if Cerberus invents new rules of behavior or adapts US marines protocols or the ones from the Indian army, just as long as it's not inconsistent from NPC to NPC. Apart from that, i never really got the feeling i'm in a military operation in the first place. Not even back in ME1, where everyone actually wore uniform on board and behaved more military than not (the saluting guys at the doors etc.), but it didn't really "feel" like military service because the dialogs both with superiors and the normal staff were very casual. Obviously this is even less so in ME2, which i consider to be intended. Shepard is the leader of a gang of semi criminals funded by a semi criminal organization. Everybody just tries to be as cool as possible

Generally i felt that the constant saluting of Jacob felt very out of place as nobody else in the room seemed to care about protocols at all. Also his eyes turn funny every time he does it



It looks as if the designer weren't really sure themselves just how "military" Cerberus should feel.



So, anyway, it would strengthen the immersion and maturity of the game if military protocols were consistently implemented, even if the protocols would differ from what we know on earth today. That is, if the games wants the player to "feel" as being part of a military operation and that Shepard is taking his service seriously.

[kromm71]

Darth_Trethon wrote...


There a hundred billion reasons why things would change.

Ugghh!  And I told you a trillion times to stop exaggerating.

[Aztag09]

I haven't really thought about that. but know that you mention it, there were some instances where it had me thinking. Being a pilot had me play a lot of attention to Joker's actions, and while the mayday call is a little tweaked than the normal one, all the other instances have been on target or close to the real instance like the first time we go to the Citadel in ME1

[Bluerall]

Agree that the left handed salute is awful

as far as civilian salutes go bleh, heads of states, govenors and high ranking civilians do salute

saw it mentioned about the right hand being used dating back to showing if armed or not

that explantion was taught by the US army back when I was in as to why the US is one of the few nations that uses palm down cause the US never lost a war supposedly

[xDarkicex]

Whats wrong with a civilian doing a salute, and is it still bad if they do it exactly the way its supposed to be done?

[Schroing]

Bluerall wrote...

that explantion was taught by the US army back when I was in as to why the US is one of the few nations that uses palm down cause the US never lost a war supposedly

lol

[Roelandtstorme]

"as far as civilian salutes go bleh, heads of states, govenors and high ranking civilians do salute"

With respects, Bluerall (cool name by the way), I don't believe they do. I "suspect" that heads of state can salute if they were former military but I don't think so. I can't remember a time when any did. I seem to remember a minor contraversy in the 70s about it, but my interest in such things is as pale as my memory of those days. I could be wrong, but I seem to have something smushy running around in my head about it.

By the way, since a "Salute" with the right hand is literally constant in every human civilization that has a salute, the introduction of "This ain't the US" while quaint and geo-political, is irrelevent to this discussion. No one even mentioned the US until one or two complained that they did. Of course, that's not really a fair thing to say with our very own resident troll having a panic attack over everything mentioned no matter how trivial, so I apologize for reiterating it.

I will say this: Some believe that you just need to "shut up, bend over and take it." Eat whatever you are fed. Ask no questions, don't "complain," don't "whine." Be a mindless sheep and obey your betters (or them whenever they vent). If you don't like onions and won't eat the onion rings in front of you, you are evil and MUST be burned at the stake, or at least silenced! Some will even try and rally support and start a riot in order to linch you if possible. They believe you onion haters are all that is screwed up with this world.

Well, I beg to disagree. When exposed to mass media, it is our responsibility to provide the writers and designers with feedback. This tells them what we like (so they can keep making what people buy) and what we don't (so they won't waste money making what no one buys). In fact, we love it when you do. It helps to make us better at our craft. Who except those like our resident troll of mediocrity doesn't want to excel at what we love? If you are against critique...if you think anyone who didn't like Swamp Thing II should be shot, you are really a strange person. In fact, you are a hypocrite because you are criticizing someone elses critique, and should, by your own flawed logic, be silenced. Accept the fact that everyone is entitled to their opinion and the world is a better place when people are free to share it.

This ain't Hitler's Germany...it's a Bioware game forum. Relax and enjoy. You might learn something, or...get this...if you're reasonable, you might teach US something. How cool would that be?

Modifié par Roelandtstorme, 02 avril 2010 - 08:42 .

[noobzor99]

I would just like to note that the soldier in question is a member of Cerberus, and as such all protocols are forfeit.

[Schroing]

Roelandtstorme wrote...

By the way, since a "Salute" with the right hand is literally constant in every human civilization that has a salute, the introduction of "This ain't the US" while quaint and geo-political, is irrelevent to this discussion.

You know what would be nice for this?
A source.

I will say this: Some believe that you just need to "shut up, bend over and take it." Eat whatever you are fed. Ask no questions, don't "complain," don't "whine." Be a mindless sheep and obey your betters (or them whenever they vent). If you don't like onions and won't eat the onion rings in front of you, you are evil and MUST be burned at the stake, or at least silenced! Some will even try and rally support and start a riot in order to linch you if possible. They believe you onion haters are all that is screwed up with this world.

Yeah, like, say...the military!
Oh, wait.

[xDarkicex]

just pulled this off of wiki but seems it might have something to do with it.



Canadian military

Much as the British salute, described above, the Canadian military salutes to demonstrate a mark of respect and courtesy for the commission and/or higher rank of other members. Salutes are not performed if a member is not wearing a headdress; instead they are to stand at attention. A lack of a cap badge, a sign of a new and untrained recruit who has not yet learned to salute, is generally treated as an individual without headdress.