237 réponses à ce sujet

[Ultrazennn]

What you're probably seeing, is people that have been around pre and post EA.

EA take great developers, with great reputations, that they have earned through countless years of hard work, and throws them into the meat grinder that is a major game publisher.

Signing with EQ is akin to any movie cliche of a big faceless company, that only cares about profit, and will shove anything out the door if the schedule demands it.

Bioware used to be a company that had pretty meticulous QA, and much like blizzard used to be, only realeased quality content.  EA means those days are over. 

I'll bet you money that many heated conversations have taken place between the bean counters at EA, and the heads of QA at Bioware.

Game developers are for the most part, comitted people that love gaming, and work way too hard and long.  Publisher are people owned by former shoe salesmen who's wife inherited money, and decided to get into the game business because they read somewhere it made a lot of money.

This is what you get when you make a deal with the devil, there are consequences.

Peoples anger however is probably misplaced.

[Wishpig]

I will admit... I've followed many games that were either working for EA or were bought by EA. I have noticed a pretty damn big trend towards shady/stupid business moves (whether its charging just a bit too much or allowing us to install a game like... five times only). It's to the point where I just accept it.

[Obtusifolius]

Ultrazennn wrote...

What you're probably seeing, is people that have been around pre and post EA.

EA take great developers, with great reputations, that they have earned through countless years of hard work, and throws them into the meat grinder that is a major game publisher.

Signing with EQ is akin to any movie cliche of a big faceless company, that only cares about profit, and will shove anything out the door if the schedule demands it.

Bioware used to be a company that had pretty meticulous QA, and much like blizzard used to be, only realeased quality content.  EA means those days are over. 

I'll bet you money that many heated conversations have taken place between the bean counters at EA, and the heads of QA at Bioware.

Game developers are for the most part, comitted people that love gaming, and work way too hard and long.  Publisher are people owned by former shoe salesmen who's wife inherited money, and decided to get into the game business because they read somewhere it made a lot of money.

This is what you get when you make a deal with the devil, there are consequences.

Peoples anger however is probably misplaced.

Very well said

[SphereofSilence]

Ultrazennn wrote...

What you're probably seeing, is people that have been around pre and post EA.

EA take great developers, with great reputations, that they have earned through countless years of hard work, and throws them into the meat grinder that is a major game publisher.

Signing with EQ is akin to any movie cliche of a big faceless company, that only cares about profit, and will shove anything out the door if the schedule demands it.

Bioware used to be a company that had pretty meticulous QA, and much like blizzard used to be, only realeased quality content.  EA means those days are over. 

I'll bet you money that many heated conversations have taken place between the bean counters at EA, and the heads of QA at Bioware.

Game developers are for the most part, comitted people that love gaming, and work way too hard and long.  Publisher are people owned by former shoe salesmen who's wife inherited money, and decided to get into the game business because they read somewhere it made a lot of money.

This is what you get when you make a deal with the devil, there are consequences.

Peoples anger however is probably misplaced.

On the other hand, EA's financial strength can greatly benefit the development of better games under Bioware.

[AOPotter]

SphereofSilence wrote...


On the other hand, EA's financial strength can greatly benefit the development of better games under Bioware.

Quite the opposite actually. EA's financial strength will make sure that we will never again see a great game from Bioware. There are two reasons for that:

1. If you pump big money into a game you want big profits. You can only have big profits if it is a product for the masses. And for the masses to buy it it must be trivial, easy, without anything that is demanding or needing a higher thought-process. Point in case: combat in Mass Effect 2. 

2. The big money that developers get from EA is not spent on improvements to the game but on presentation of the game. Because presentation sells and only a minority of gamers actually cares about things like choices, consistent storyline, bugtesting etc. Again example ME2: with the money they spent on Martin Sheen they could have hired gamedesigners to make the decisions of the first game into actual gameplay instead of a lousy email.
 We see the same with Dragon Age Awakenings: instead of having your choices from the original game carry over they just gave the personal stories of our wardens the middle finger. Like: "Oh - I was dead and now i am feeling better!" or "I wanted to go after Morrigan but this keep is as good as the woman I love!" or "Whynne? Didn't I cut your head off?" or "Where is my imprinted dog?". They could have spent money on gamedesigners to make all these choices mean something and be represented correctly in the gameworld. Instead the spent it on marketing and little else. (The bug-testing team for example apparently just had enough funding for one guy and his guide dog.)

[Taritu]

Review numbers on Awakenings are lower than on DA:O.



Premise, in other words, is not entirely correct. People outside the forums recognize this is not as good a game as the original.



Next.

[Masticetobbacco]

AOPotter wrote...

SphereofSilence wrote...


On the other hand, EA's financial strength can greatly benefit the development of better games under Bioware.

Quite the opposite actually. EA's financial strength will make sure that we will never again see a great game from Bioware. There are two reasons for that:

1. If you pump big money into a game you want big profits. You can only have big profits if it is a product for the masses. And for the masses to buy it it must be trivial, easy, without anything that is demanding or needing a higher thought-process. Point in case: combat in Mass Effect 2. 

2. The big money that developers get from EA is not spent on improvements to the game but on presentation of the game. Because presentation sells and only a minority of gamers actually cares about things like choices, consistent storyline, bugtesting etc. Again example ME2: with the money they spent on Martin Sheen they could have hired gamedesigners to make the decisions of the first game into actual gameplay instead of a lousy email.
 We see the same with Dragon Age Awakenings: instead of having your choices from the original game carry over they just gave the personal stories of our wardens the middle finger. Like: "Oh - I was dead and now i am feeling better!" or "I wanted to go after Morrigan but this keep is as good as the woman I love!" or "Whynne? Didn't I cut your head off?" or "Where is my imprinted dog?". They could have spent money on gamedesigners to make all these choices mean something and be represented correctly in the gameworld. Instead the spent it on marketing and little else. (The bug-testing team for example apparently just had enough funding for one guy and his guide dog.)

this is so true.
EA's financial resources will do nothing but make Bioware fat and lazy, and corrupt itself over the motive of making only money.

Bioware will NEVER make great games like it used to, overprice its games and DLCS, and spend more time advertising these overpriced games and DLCs as well as "community" events to improve their publicity. If Bioware screws up, EA can just bail us out right? They need to stop hanging on their lifeline, pull their heads out of their asses and do something with their money

[Harcken]

To each his own, yet, it's not really receiving "praise," to be honest. Most reviews awarded it a 7-8 saying it's the same as "DA:O" just shorter and more rushed. Praise is more like: "This game heralds a new age of RPGs, breaking boundaries, and advancing the industry."

[terrordactyl1]

I've really enjoyed Awakening personally - 8/10 if I were a reviewer.



9/10 - If it didn't have so many bugs

10/10 - If it had no bugs and was a reasonable price.

[Wishpig]

SphereofSilence wrote...
 (The bug-testing team for
example apparently just had enough funding for one guy and his guide
dog.)

This made me laugh! I get an image of a blind guy sitting at a computer stroking his chin with his guide dog at his side, "See any bugs boy? Huh, huh? See any bugs... go get 'um!"

Meanwhile the computers not even on.

I think the problem was they didn't give themselves enough time for bug testing. Bug testing for a PC is HARD! So many factors that your head can explode if you think to hard about it. But bug testing for the PC, 360, and PS3... in a few months... jesus! Must be the most frustrating job in the world.

Modifié par Wishpig, 04 avril 2010 - 07:17 .

[Mintyone]

@the bioware poster

Its more than a little late to be taking the high ground, when you v shown yourself to be a hypocritical **** that refuses to even acknowledge the tons and tons of negative criticism and very well argued accusations of being a bunch of moneygrabbing sellouts.

Start acknowledging peoples concerns in the negative threads, as well as the fanboy ones, and perhaps your claims of being serious about anything other than the short-term bottom line would be believable.


incredible.

Edit: It really is ironic that you bring up face-to-face communication vs online. You really think ignoring peoples anger at being f-ing ripped off would be wise if they were actually withing striking distance? Hypocrites.

Modifié par Mintyone, 04 avril 2010 - 07:43 .

[WARDEN9652]

^^ perhaps you didnt read this entire thread, it has already been stated that people agree negative criticism is good, even by the op i believe, so go take some anger pills and chill out (we will be here when you get back:D)

[Xandurpein]

Masticetobbacco wrote...

Bioware will NEVER make great games like it used to, overprice its games and DLCS, and spend more time advertising these overpriced games and DLCs as well as "community" events to improve their publicity. If Bioware screws up, EA can just bail us out right? They need to stop hanging on their lifeline, pull their heads out of their asses and do something with their money

I have been a fan of bioware since BG1 back in the old days and I can tell you that in my opinion Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 are easily the best game they have EVER produced (BG2 included). Yes Awakening was rushed and definitly needed more QA before it was launched, but saying Bioware will never make games liked they used to, because one expansion is a bit rushed, is just hogwash as far as I'm concerned.

[Wishpig]

Mintyone wrote...

@the bioware poster

Its more than a little late to be taking the high ground, when you v shown yourself to be a hypocritical **** that refuses to even acknowledge the tons and tons of negative criticism and very well argued accusations of being a bunch of moneygrabbing sellouts.

Start acknowledging peoples concerns in the negative threads, as well as the fanboy ones, and perhaps your claims of being serious about anything other than the short-term bottom line would be believable.


incredible.

Edit: It really is ironic that you bring up face-to-face communication vs online. You really think ignoring peoples anger at being f-ing ripped off would be wise if they were actually withing striking distance? Hypocrites.

Lol, Warden is right, read a thread before you make really hostile. Although to be fair... it's gotten pretty long and it's easy to overlook posts.

The general theme of the thread is...

criticism = good

rude unhelpfull criticism = bad

The bioware poster I think your refering too is Gaider right? He himself said that the team takes negitive criticism to heart. Granted you can't prove it, but he responds frequently enough in this forum for me to think he does care about the community more so then most devs out there.

Keep in mind he is a dev. When someone calls him a money grubbing hypocrit he's not going to respond. Getting in a flame war with the community would almost certainly land him in s*** with corporate. Better to rise above and ignore the name calling.

[micheal001]

I wasn't sure if I was going too buy the new expansion (waking) because I dislike DLC. I didn't mind Dragon Age but was worried that the expansion would have DLC and interup the game play or quest line. But in the end I bought it ....and.....I felt I was left hanging even now the dark spawn and such have all been wipen clean. 

Dragon Age series I have found didn't carry alot of immersion too character growth or too main quest lines at least not the same as I found with NWN or BG. The waking expansion I saw as a simple grind too finish the end with or without any connection too npc characters that decided too join the Grey Wardens.

Your given command of lands and a castle but are limited too fuctions. Some of the same voice overs were given too the characters in the expansion. No real surprises happened takes place in the Dragon Age series everything is sort of mundane.

Wouldn't it have been awesome too have had a darkspawn in your keeps prison or come across a carven on the road. Maybe having a sect of necromancers working with the dark spawn. Anything but traviling from point too point and grinding out the quest line.

Over all for me Dragon Age is "ok" but NWN bets Dragon Age hands down

[Yrkoon]

Wishpig wrote...
.

The general theme of the thread is...

criticism = good

rude unhelpfull criticism = bad

You mean, that's the   general opinions of a  handful of people on this thread.  You seem to have ignored or dismissed all the rest of us.


I, for one, see no need to play the part of the advice-giving critiquer.  I've done it for years.  Made me feel  "good" about myself,  but  ultimately produced  no results.  Bioware/EA doesn't pay me  to "help" them out. And that being the case, when they  release some turd DLC or rushed  expansion, despite  knowing full well what the fan wants, they're going to get the unhelpful side of me.  (aka.   consumer outrage.  What an alien concept!)  Ditto  with the slow-coming patches, and moronic, overhyped "epic community events", and April fools  gag-gift addons that they have the audacity to try and   charge their  loyal community for..

People continue to advocate  the diplomat approach, as if we're sitting in an office talking to a human being across the room from us.  We are NOT.  We're trying to get through to a massive corporation.  You don't "construtively criticise' a sightless,  faceless entity.  You light a fire under its ass  until it takes notice.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 avril 2010 - 09:14 .

[Yrkoon]

Mintyone wrote...

@the bioware poster

Its more than a little late to be taking the high ground, when you v shown yourself to be a hypocritical **** that refuses to even acknowledge the tons and tons of negative criticism and very well argued accusations of being a bunch of moneygrabbing sellouts.

Start acknowledging peoples concerns in the negative threads, as well as the fanboy ones, and perhaps your claims of being serious about anything other than the short-term bottom line would be believable.


incredible.

Edit: It really is ironic that you bring up face-to-face communication vs online. You really think ignoring peoples anger at being f-ing ripped off would be wise if they were actually withing striking distance? Hypocrites.

Well said.

[David Gaider]

Mintyone wrote...
@the bioware poster

Its more than a little late to be taking the high ground, when you v shown yourself to be a hypocritical **** that refuses to even acknowledge the tons and tons of negative criticism and very well argued accusations of being a bunch of moneygrabbing sellouts.

Start acknowledging peoples concerns in the negative threads, as well as the fanboy ones, and perhaps your claims of being serious about anything other than the short-term bottom line would be believable.


incredible.

Edit: It really is ironic that you bring up face-to-face communication vs online. You really think ignoring peoples anger at being f-ing ripped off would be wise if they were actually withing striking distance? Hypocrites.

Case in point.

Yrkoon wrote...
I, for one, see no need to play the part of
the advice-giving critiquer.  Bioware/EA doesn't pay me  to "help" them
out. And that being the case, when they  release some turd DLC or rushed
 expansion, they're going to get the unhelpful side of me. 
(aka.   consumer outrage.  What an alien concept!)  Ditto  with the
slow-coming patches, and moronic, overhyped "epic community events", and
April fools  gag-gift addons that they have the audacity to try and  
charge their  loyal community for..

People continue to advocate 
the diplomat approach, as if we're sitting in an office talking to a
human being across the room from us.  We are NOT.  We're trying to get
through to a massive corporation.  You don't "construtively criticise' a
sightless,  faceless entity.  You light a fire under its ass  until it
takes notice.

If it makes you feel better, by all means.

Modifié par David Gaider, 04 avril 2010 - 09:12 .

[Basher of Glory]

David Gaider wrote...
...
There are a lot of thoughtful, discerning folks who come to the forums -- sometimes to offer their thoughts, sometimes to offer their criticism or their praise. Regardless of which it is, if it is politely offered and intelligent it will be received as gladly as if someone had offered it to us in real life. That is one's opportunity to be persuasive when it comes to the developers -- and persuasion is the opportunity that the forums offer you, even if some (or many?) people approach the idea with a much greater sense of entitlement. And, of course, some people don't come here intending to be persuasive at all.
...

In all modesty I claim for myself to be counted as one of these "thoughtful, discerning folks". Since about eight years (right after NWN 1 was released) I'm a member of BIO-boards and always tried to stay polite and constructive. Nevertheless, I also tried not to become a so called "fanboy".

In my younger history as member of the new social board my posts were mainly about gameplay-questions and general discussions, like the choices one has to make. DA:O was my personal highlight of RPGs since years.

Since the release of Awakening this has changed. I ignored the board entirely during my first run through the game. After I finsihed it, I checked here to see what I missed respectively what I did the wrong way.
To my utter astonishement I had to realize, that most of the stuff I considered as "I have done it wrong" happened because of bugs, glitches, elusive design descisions - or it was simply not implemented. I spare us the details for now, as they are posted frequently, in countless threads, by many different users.

All these threads have one thing in common: The request for feedback, which was ENTIRELY ignored.

I play PC-games since about 20 years and am rather used to faulty products, not least because in most cases some patches did the job. Thus, I'm not "angry" because of a bug. I'm not "angry" because the next patch is not available the next day. There is just one thing which makes me angry: Sheer ignorance of a manufacturer whose product I purchased.
Some words of you, Mr. Gaider or any other person in charge would have been sufficient, such as
"we know about it and we will fix it". Many so called "whiner-threads" would have never been created.

Now you enter this thread and tell us about social interactions:
"My impression is that many people on the internet come to think that the
laws of social interaction are different here than in real life"
Your conclusion:
"Yet it is supposed to be different here? Of course it isn't."

With this conclusion you are very right. But that applies for both sides. Just to ignore people days and weeks and then show up in a "positive" thread... well, that's a sign.

It's not up to me to lecture you, but perhaps it's worth to check this:
http://en.wikipedia....xcellence_Model

Not so long ago I considered BioWare as an "excellent organization" and I DO hope, that it will be one again.

[David Gaider]

Baher of Glory wrote...
With this conclusion you are very right. But that applies for both sides. Just to ignore people days and weeks and then show up in a "positive" thread... well, that's a sign.

It's not up to me to lecture you, but perhaps it's worth to check this:
http://en.wikipedia....xcellence_Model

Not so long ago I considered BioWare as an "excellent organization" and I DO hope, that it will be one again.

If one is to base our excellence or lack thereof on how much we come to these forums to answer every concern or question, then sure. We don't do that, however, and never have. If you choose to look upon our lack of communication as us not doing anything at all, then so be it.

As for what is going to be done to address the concerns that are raised here, I'll leave that to the folks whose responsibility it is. So you're not going to see me running to threads to assuage anyone's concerns because I personally have no info to offer. I'm sure that when more info is available from the team, you'll hear about it then.

And since I am now apparently being singled out as a target, I think I'll just leave this thread alone and go back to work. I've made my point, for what it's worth (which doesn't seem to be much, not that I really expected it to).

[darkshadow136]

David Gaider wrote...

There are a lot of thoughtful, discerning folks who come to the forums -- sometimes to offer their thoughts, sometimes to offer their criticism or their praise. Regardless of which it is, if it is politely offered and intelligent it will be received as gladly as if someone had offered it to us in real life. That is one's opportunity to be persuasive when it comes to the developers -- and persuasion is the opportunity that the forums offer you, even if some (or many?) people approach the idea with a much greater sense of entitlement. And, of course, some people don't come here intending to be persuasive at all.

For those who fit into the category of offering their thoughtful praise and criticism, it is appreciated -- and read by more people at Bioware than you might think, even if few of them are eager to wade into the mire to actually post (and even if we are never able to take it all in -- we do have jobs, after all). But if anyone is concerned, rest assured that we don't take the rage personally. We understand that fans are fans because they're passionate about what they love -- even if also occasionally a little deranged.

Well said David. I for one am more than happy to praise the good points of the content you guys put out. But at the same time share my opinion in the form of constructiive criticism so your teams are not only aware of what your customers didn't like , but also so in  the future you can bring us even better products. Because in the end if you give us a better procduct we are more pleased , and Bioware as company increases their success.

Oh and by the way David Happy Easter.

Modifié par darkshadow136, 04 avril 2010 - 09:29 .

[Wishpig]

Yrkoon wrote...

People continue to advocate  the diplomat approach, as if we're sitting in an office talking to a human being across the room from us.  We are NOT.  We're trying to get through to a massive corporation.  You don't "construtively criticise' a sightless,  faceless entity.  You light a fire under its ass  until it takes notice.

I certainly see what you mean, but I wouldn't call them a faceless enity... I mean a dev, one of the top devs, just responded to you. We can put a voice, if not a face to bioware.

Although, I guess I do see EA as a faceless entity, just not bioware.

It all comes down to numbers (aka $$$), as I'm sure you'd agree. Lets take ME2 for example, ME2 has recieved intense flaming on these threads, and yet has sold extremely well, and has been recieved extremely well overall. Now a dev behind ME2 comes onto the ME2 forums, knowing ME2 was a HUGE success. Who do you think he's going to pay attention too (if anyone), the rude loud mouthed poster or the polite poster who explains what they didn't like and why it didn't work. The money speaks more then either poster and chances, knowing his game did well, he's hardly gonna take someone who says it sucks seriously. Knowing the 3rd game needs to be improved, he MAY pay some attention to the wel thought out and less angry post.

Modifié par Wishpig, 04 avril 2010 - 09:38 .

[Boredmad]

Yrkoon wrote...

Wishpig wrote...
.

The general theme of the thread is...

criticism = good

rude unhelpfull criticism = bad

You mean, that's the   general opinions of a  handful of people on this thread.  You seem to have ignored or dismissed all the rest of us.


I, for one, see no need to play the part of the advice-giving critiquer.  I've done it for years.  Made me feel  "good" about myself,  but  ultimately produced  no results.  Bioware/EA doesn't pay me  to "help" them out. And that being the case, when they  release some turd DLC or rushed  expansion, despite  knowing full well what the fan wants, they're going to get the unhelpful side of me.  (aka.   consumer outrage.  What an alien concept!)  Ditto  with the slow-coming patches, and moronic, overhyped "epic community events", and April fools  gag-gift addons that they have the audacity to try and   charge their  loyal community for..

People continue to advocate  the diplomat approach, as if we're sitting in an office talking to a human being across the room from us.  We are NOT.  We're trying to get through to a massive corporation.  You don't "construtively criticise' a sightless,  faceless entity.  You light a fire under its ass  until it takes notice.

How do you even remotely believe that name calling, bashing, and other forms of rude unconstructive criticism actually gets Bioware’s attention. Bioware likely ignores such criticism I know I would. Anger and discontent over various issues is well warranted and criticism from the fans is one way Bioware can be made aware of this, but when that criticism is rude and unconstructive do you honestly believe it gets through. Bioware is run by people not robots how do you yourself react to rude unconstructive criticism I doubt you take it well or even react to it.

Constructive criticism is more likely to get developer attention without it being ignored especially if there are a significant amount of the community giving similar criticism. When threads regarding various topics of criticism are bogged down with unconstructive criticism be it flaming, bashing, or name calling it goes unheard any constructive criticism within the thread buried by a sea of immature ranting.

[Yrkoon]

Wishpig wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

People continue to advocate  the diplomat approach, as if we're sitting in an office talking to a human being across the room from us.  We are NOT.  We're trying to get through to a massive corporation.  You don't "construtively criticise' a sightless,  faceless entity.  You light a fire under its ass  until it takes notice.

I certainly see what you mean, but I wouldn't call them a faceless enity... I mean a dev, one of the top devs, just responded to you.

You mean he singled me out </victim card>

  That's fine, But I'm  neither talking to, or about David... at all.  Unlike most people, I'm actually aware that he doesn't work in QA, nor is  he responsible for the vast majority of the specific gripes that people have had  recently  (Awakenings being rushed and bugged;   content-less DLCs  etc) 

Although, I guess I do see EA as a faceless entity, just not bioware.

To be sure.  But really,  what's the point in seperating the two?  Can Bioware do ANYTHING that EA doesn't want them to do?

[Gaius Octavian]

"OMGAH BIOWARE WON'T DO WHAT I WANT THEM TO WAHHHH I'M GONNA CRY CUZ ITS ALL ABOUT ME :[[["

Stop whining like decrepit old women, you don't own Bioware and they have every right to ignore your posts full of fail and crying.

Modifié par Gaius Octavian, 04 avril 2010 - 09:44 .