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[Herr Uhl]

Gilsa wrote...

How do you get that she barely sees her child? I thought she just couldn't take him out of the nursery.

Ask her if you can see him IIRC.

[Gilsa]

Oh, btw, just to amuse ya, if it's a male DC that is talking to her, he can proposition her. =p

Unna: "Obviously, they bred anyway, but their children can't possibly deserve the same protections as those who were legitimately born."
M!DC: "Then I guess you're not looking for a quick tumble?"
Unna: "Get away from me. I'll tell my father you tried to violate me!" (shocked, horrified)
Unna: "I would sooner lie with a nug!" (indignant)

Modifié par Gilsa, 06 mai 2010 - 10:23 .

[Herr Uhl]

Yes, I like that option.

[Sarah1281]

Gilsa wrote...

How do you get that she barely sees her child? I thought she just couldn't take him out of the nursery.

She gets 'visitation', right? She gets to visit her son. How much do you think they're going to indulge a casteless when it comes to the King's only heir? And as he gets older it's only going to get worse as no one's going to want a casteless influencing the mind of the potential future King of Orzammar and his association with her (even if she's technically a part of his House) won't do him any favors. It's different if she's of a noble House herself in a DC game but otherwise...if she's not the one taking care of the child then she doens't need to be spending a great deal of time with him. I suppose they could let her in to the nursery to see him whenever she wanted but that doesn't sound very likely.

[Gilsa]

Y'know, it's absurd, but I like the option of trying to get a shag with Felsi, even knowing she'll shoot you down. It's just nice to find a dwarf you can have that kind of dialogue with.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The dwarves don't have slavery, just rigid caste. But, exceptional individuals who made a major impacf on society in some great way can become paragons, regardless of caste, or lack of. Casteless belong to no one, though, not even their society. They are similar to homeless and squatters living in the heart of urban decay.



the Tevinter enslaved human and elf alike, slavery was a huge part of their economy and function. The original imperium could be compared in many aspects to ancient Rome. The height of civilization, an empire that spanned Thedas and left many ruins and relics of it's former glory, built upon slavery, valuing both polytheism but also philosophy and discovery.



So, Tevinter in it's glory days was more than likely similar to rome, with Ferelden and Orlais being similar to Gaul/Britannia of it's time. Though they did some terrible things, I doubt they were any more evil or nefarious than the Romans were.

[Gilsa]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Gilsa wrote...

How do you get that she barely sees her child? I thought she just couldn't take him out of the nursery.

She gets 'visitation', right? She gets to visit her son. How much do you think they're going to indulge a casteless when it comes to the King's only heir? And as he gets older it's only going to get worse as no one's going to want a casteless influencing the mind of the potential future King of Orzammar and his association with her (even if she's technically a part of his House) won't do him any favors. It's different if she's of a noble House herself in a DC game but otherwise...if she's not the one taking care of the child then she doens't need to be spending a great deal of time with him. I suppose they could let her in to the nursery to see him whenever she wanted but that doesn't sound very likely.

Well, I would assume that this is while Bhelen is vying for the throne. Don't you think he'd improve the situation once he's king and let his casteless woman get more rights to her child?

Edit: I mean, she gets to be an ambassador for the coronation ceremony. Seemed like that was an improvement on her situation.

Modifié par Gilsa, 06 mai 2010 - 10:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thanks Gilsa, for the conversation about the Servant caste.


I've been having thoughts on Paragon Aeducan and how in many ways, he is similar to Loghain Mac Tir.

Aeducan was never interested in leading and commanding but circumstances basically forced him to. The same can be said about Loghain, if you read the Stolen Throne, as he didn't sem to be enthusiastic about joining Maric's rebels and rising through the ranks at first.

Aeducan compeltely bypassed the Assembly, basically not giving a **** about what they say and unilaterally did what he thought was right. Loghain somewhat tried to do this in Origins.

And, Aeducan was obsessed with the Empire's security and is said to have been very melancholic and on the verge of depression. Same can be said about Loghain, who is obsessive about Ferelden's security and is on the verge of depression and melancholy in Origins.

Now as much as I like Loghain and think he is a great man, I am not saying he is necessarily Aeducan's equal. From what we know, Aeducan seems more impressive, as he was supremely succesful, while Loghain was not (in Origins at least). Still, success and failure do not exclude other similarities (they do afffect how people percieve them however, as one of them is seen as a hero and the other is seen, mostly, as a villain).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 mai 2010 - 10:33 .

[Costin_Razvan]

We know very little of Aeducan himself though, mind you Knight.

OT: You really like the Illusive Man don't you?

Some more pics of Paragon Duran.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 mai 2010 - 10:36 .

[Gilsa]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Thanks Gilsa, for the conversation about the Servant caste.


I've been having thoughts on Paragon Aeducan and how in many ways, he is similar to Loghain Mac Tir.

Aeducan was never interested in leading and commanding but circumstances basically forced him to. The same can be said about Loghain, if you read the Stolen Throne, as he didn't sem to be enthusiastic about joining Maric's rebels and rising through the ranks at first.

Aeducan compeltely bypassed the Assembly, basically not giving a **** about what they say and unilaterally did what he thought was right. Loghain somewhat tried to do this in Origins.

And, Aeducan was obsessed with the Empire's security and is said to have been very melancholic and on the verge of depression. Same can be said about Loghain, who is obsessive about Ferelden's security and is on the verge of depression and melancholy in Origins.

Now as much as I like Loghain and think he is a great man, I am not saying he is necessarily Aeducan's equal. From what we know, Aeducan seems more impressive, as he was supremely succesful, while Loghain was not (in Origins at least). Still, success and failure do not exclude other similarities (they do afffect how people percieve them however, as one of them is seen as a hero and the other is seen, mostly, as a villain).

Yes, I see the parallels.  While he saved the dwarves with his action, he considered it a defeat. I imagine it couldn't have been easy dooming the other thiags with the collasping of the tunnels -- he did what was necessary to survive. Loghain has made the same choices, especially with the alienage, imo.

[tmp7704]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

the Tevinter enslaved human and elf alike, slavery was a huge part of their economy and function.

Don't forget the part slavery was there also to ensure cheap, convenient and large enough supply of blood for the Tevinter mages who ruled the empire. Which goes quite beyond regular slavery and close to human sacrifices practiced by american cultures of old.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
OT: You really like the Illusive Man don't you?

I do yes. He is the Bioware character that I identify with the most  (though I don't drink nor smoke).


@ Gilsa, yes exactly.

The Assembly was failing to take action, because not one House was willing to sacrifice its thaig and the Dwarves simply could not defend all of them.
Paragon Aeducan made sacrifices and did what was necessary to win, and he never felt good about it. I see a lot of Loghain in this.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 mai 2010 - 10:42 .

[Sarah1281]

Gilsa wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Gilsa wrote...

How do you get that she barely sees her child? I thought she just couldn't take him out of the nursery.

She gets 'visitation', right? She gets to visit her son. How much do you think they're going to indulge a casteless when it comes to the King's only heir? And as he gets older it's only going to get worse as no one's going to want a casteless influencing the mind of the potential future King of Orzammar and his association with her (even if she's technically a part of his House) won't do him any favors. It's different if she's of a noble House herself in a DC game but otherwise...if she's not the one taking care of the child then she doens't need to be spending a great deal of time with him. I suppose they could let her in to the nursery to see him whenever she wanted but that doesn't sound very likely.

Well, I would assume that this is while Bhelen is vying for the throne. Don't you think he'd improve the situation once he's king and let his casteless woman get more rights to her child?

Edit: I mean, she gets to be an ambassador for the coronation ceremony. Seemed like that was an improvement on her situation.

I think she's only an Ambassador in a DC ending. By that point the Broscas have been promoted to warriors and are being considered made nobility. If she's just a random noble hunter to the man who happened to become King, why would she be allowed to do this? Bhelen's not going to do something that controversial so early and without any gain to himself.

And why would the situation improve once Bhelen's King? Is he worried that there are spies in the Palace who will announce to everyone that Rica can see Endrin whenever she wants and thus weaken his claim? Bhelen's the one who ultimately decides how much time she can spend with Endrin as he's the head of House Aeducan and can overrule everyone else.

[Gilsa]

Aye, the houses didn't want to use their own soldiers for the safety of the other houses. They all wanted the other houses to lose their own soldiers and get weaker while theirs grew in strength. History was repeating itself when you give the order to march on to Denerim and you stop to chat with the dwarf captain.



Dwarf commander: "And? What word have we from Orzammar? Has House Klaret sent their men or haven't they?" (irritable)

Dwarf soldier 1: "They're stalling. Which is as good as a no." (annoyed by this fact)

Dwarf soldier 2: "House Klaret's feud with House Rumold has flared up again since their son died in that Deep Roads business. So naturally they're pleading the need for self-defense." (he says this as if it's obviously a lie)

Dwarf commander: "Hmph! Fine time to start with that nonsense again. I've half a mind to--oh, evening to you, Grey Warden. I didn't realize you were still up and about." (grumbling -- and then he suddenly notices the grey warden, to whom he speaks friendly)

PC: "Is there a problem with the dwarven forces?"

Dwarf commander: "Nothing that can be dealt with now, I'm afraid. Just one of the houses being thicker than the stone that made them." (it's not important)

Dwarf commander: "Once all of this Blight business is done, there will be a reckoning in the Assembly." (this is both a promise and said with a sigh of resignation to the fact)

Dwarf soldier 2: "They're probably half-hoping we'll all wind up dead. That way, they'll have one of the strongest forces left in Orzammar." (grumbled)

Dwarf soldier 1: "Enough to face the darkspawn all on their own, I suppose? That's exactly the kind of half-arsed thinking that got us into the mess after Endrin passed." (annoyed by the idea there's going to be more trouble)

(IF: PC is dwarf) Dwarf soldier 2: "It was our good fortune that you decided to return home when you did, Grey Warden. For all that you needed our help, I expect we needed yours more." (begrudging compliment)

[Sarah1281]

They never change...I want to be there for that 'reckoning'...

[Costin_Razvan]

You mean where Bhelen decides to slaughter House Klaret for treason?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

They never change...I want to be there for that 'reckoning'...

If Bhelen and anvil preserved...well you can guess what sort of reckoning that would be.

Actually, Dain Aeducan doesn't mind sending his own opposition in Ferelden (and elves), to Bhelen and the anvil....Too bad Branka is a crazy **** who ruined the plan!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 mai 2010 - 11:07 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The only thing that makes me destroy the anvil in most playthroughs is that crazy **** Branka. If I had the option to kill her, kill Caridin, then return to Orzammar and point the way for the city's more stable smiths and engineers, that puppy would be pumping out metal men, day and night.



However, letting Branka have her toy was like, for me, letting a paranoid schitzophrenic love-child of Mengle have unfettered and unsupervised access to the entire U.S. stockpile of chem, bio, and nuke weapons.



otherwise, I have no problem with the anvil.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The only thing that makes me destroy the anvil in most playthroughs is that crazy **** Branka. If I had the option to kill her, kill Caridin, then return to Orzammar and point the way for the city's more stable smiths and engineers, that puppy would be pumping out metal men, day and night.

However, letting Branka have her toy was like, for me, letting a paranoid schitzophrenic love-child of Mengle have unfettered and unsupervised access to the entire U.S. stockpile of chem, bio, and nuke weapons.

otherwise, I have no problem with the anvil.

I agree that Branka is mad, but I thought about it this way.

Branka can be killed or is going to die eventually. The anvil on the otherhand can't be replaced (or it's extremily hard to achieve, even Branka, who is a genius despite everything, didn't come close to building something like it).

So from this perspective, I chose to keep the Anvil. A risk, but worth it in my opinion. I have always been fascinated with the Dwarven Empire and the only way to restore it seems to be with the anvil.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 mai 2010 - 11:18 .

[Cuddlezarro]

I would have loved a kill Branka but spare the anvil option...oh well i still spare the damnt hing any ways (and lie to shale about it since I actually like her)

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

The only thing that makes me destroy the anvil in most playthroughs is that crazy **** Branka. If I had the option to kill her, kill Caridin, then return to Orzammar and point the way for the city's more stable smiths and engineers, that puppy would be pumping out metal men, day and night.

However, letting Branka have her toy was like, for me, letting a paranoid schitzophrenic love-child of Mengle have unfettered and unsupervised access to the entire U.S. stockpile of chem, bio, and nuke weapons.

otherwise, I have no problem with the anvil.

I agree that Branka is mad, but I thought about it this way.

Branka can be killed or is going to die eventually. The anvil on the otherhand can't be replaced (or it's extremily hard to achieve, even Branka, who is a genius despite everything, didn't come close to building something like it).

So from this perspective, I chose to keep the Anvil. A risk, but worth it in my opinion. I have always been fascinated with the Dwarven Empire and the only way to restore it seems to be with the anvil.  

Yes, which is the main reason why I've personally been in favor of keeping the anvil, in theory. I would like the dwarves to get their army of golems back and go on a righteous crusade of darkspawn ass kicking from here to Kal Shirok.

However, my problem is Branka being the only person with exclusive access to the anvil, the sole producer of golems, who can control them all, and thus, have her own army of near-indestructable murder machines at her command. And then one day she wakes up on the wrong side of the bed and sends them marching against the last remnants of dwarven civilization. I found the ending where I picked Bhelen and kept the anvil to be disturbing...her fortress guarded by an army of golems. Made me worry alot about the future of the dwarves.

Even worse, what if she figures out a way to imortality by making herself a golem with free will?

Now, if they come up with a DLC later where whoever you poicked to rule orzammar has become worried about Branka, and sends you on a mission to assasinate her....then I'd probably keep it around. Because I know I could go back and wrest it from her nutty claws later.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I found the ending where I picked Bhelen and kept the anvil to be disturbing...her fortress guarded by an army of golems. Made me worry alot about the future of the dwarves.

It is less disturbing than Harrowmont / anvil ending, as he wasn't bothered to do anything.
Bhelen on the otherhand made usage of the anvil illegal (I bet it's temporary though) and went on the offensive. For now, Bhelen has succesfully contained Branka (though not defeated her). In Harrowmont's ending, it's the surface world that had to do his dirty work (they just contained her as well) and their relations with Orzammar became at an all time low.

As long as Branka is contained and she can't take living beings, her army's numbers would not increase.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Even worse, what if she figures out a way to imortality by making herself a golem with free will?

Definately a possibility. Still killable though. So in the larger picture and the long run, the anvil is worth it imo.
The golems are powerful yes, but they are not invinsible. Bhelen did manage to contain her and put her at bay.

And the way I RP it, Dain Aeducan is willing to commit Ferelden's ressources and manpower to assist his brother in retaking the anvil.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 mai 2010 - 11:37 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Yes, that is a good way to look at it. Sort off off-screen in-your-head rp'ing on maybe working on contingency plans.



the Harrowmont/anvil ending is the absolute worst, because Harrowmont is completely useless, and if branka came marching with her golem army to Orzammar's gates, he'd put the issue up in the assembly to decide whether or not they should take action against a living Paragon.



I still wish I could have killed both Branka and Caradin, personally, and let Orzammar's brightest figure the thing out themselves. That would make me much warmer and fuzzier, for sure.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I still wish I could have killed both Branka and Caradin, personally, and let Orzammar's brightest figure the thing out themselves. That would make me much warmer and fuzzier, for sure.

I nominate Garin!





I freakin love this guy.

In all seriousness though, if it were compeltely up to me and if I was sure Orzammar hade smiths who can operate this thing, I would have made the Anvil a joint venture between the Legion of the Dead and Bhelen. The Legion, while they do not care much about politics, still respect the authority of the king. And Bhelen doesn't have to worry about the Legion of the dead, due to their apolitical nature.

The thing however is to make sure someone coul operate the anvil. Part of my reasoning of maintaining the anvil is to provide golems  pronto to defeat the 5th blight. Long term consideratons, while important, are second in priority.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 mai 2010 - 11:44 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
I still wish I could have killed both Branka and Caradin, personally, and let Orzammar's brightest figure the thing out themselves. That would make me much warmer and fuzzier, for sure.

I nominate Garin!





I freakin love this guy.

In all seriousness though, if it were compeltely up to me and if I was sure Orzammar hade smiths who can operate this thing, I would have made the Anvil a joint venture between the Legion of the Dead and Bhelen. The Legion, while they do not care much about politics, still respect the authority of the king. And Bhelen doesn't have to worry about the Legion of the dead, due to their apolitical nature.

The thing however is to make sure someone coul operate the anvil. Part of my reasoning of maintaining the anvil is to provide golems  pronto to defeat the 5th blight. Long term consideratons, while important, are second in priority.

Damn skippy! I'll even make him a new sandwich so he can stop looking for his old one, if he promises to oversee the golem manufacturing.

It's very much a short-term/long-term arguement, one that has many paralells in the real world, whith dire consequences for either thinking more for the short term, or long term. Sometimes, those big gambles pay off, sometimes, you end up in deeper sh*t than you started out with. Could go either way.