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[soignee]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Edit: Besides, I do plan on coming back, remember? I'm not just going to abandon Orzammar to Harrowmont and his really old age.

What you plan on doing doesn't really matter. The game makes it clear that the Warden doesn't have any importance in the grand scheme of things beyond the end of the game, for at least 6 months, then she/he disappears again.

So, you have to meta-game in order to be a good Aeducan?

this! You just don't know, do you? Until the epilogue card flashes by.

[Costin_Razvan]

A good Aeducan doesn't kill members of their own House to put a puppet Harrowmont on the throne that they plan to replace, just out of sheer spite! Bhelen had his reasons. You were either incompetent or would have killed him.

And no you don't need to metagame to be a good Aeducan. A good Aeducan serves Orzammar first and foremost, choosing Bhelen is that, for at least he makes the point he will change the caste system, and considering what he pulled out in the past, it's quite possible he is able to.

Besides isn't Sarah metagaming against Bhelen by deciding against him just out of what he MIGHT say when you meet him?

soignee: Get that fanfiction chapter please!

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 mai 2010 - 12:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
All of his support were the same people he bribed for the DN exile in the first place and literally no one else sided with him. That is one way to gain support but I wasn't convinced the Assembly liked him and without that he was going to have a lot of difficulty (and they kept trying to kill him so he dissolved them which you can't really predict). And she knew she'd do better than Harrowmont (hard not to) but whether Bhelen could actually live up to the potential he showed with his Xanatos Gambit was really anyone's guess until the epilogue.

Not all the Assembly liked him. But it's clear he had 50% of them on his side and that's no small feat.

Bribery doesn't work just like that. You need to be credible to be able to bribe. The fact that Bhelen could bribe meant he acquired control over ressources (with no one noticing), made himself credible and acquired the trust of 50% of the Assembly (over his two siblings, one of which was the rising star) and only 2 years back, everyone considered him a child. That's really not to be underestimated.

By the time you arrive, the Assembly was 50/50 split (hence the deadlock), so you can't argue that the Assembly didn't like Bhelen, because half of it did.

While it wasn't knowable that he would be awesome, there defiantely were lots of signs of his awesomeness, so it's not really guessing he would be good, but rationally determining that he has big potential.

[Herr Uhl]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

A good Aeducan doesn't kill members of their own House to put a puppet Harrowmont on the throne that they plan to replace, just out of sheer spite! Bhelen had his reasons. You were either incompetent or would have killed him.

And no you don't need to metagame to be a good Aeducan. A good Aeducan serves Orzammar first and foremost, choosing Bhelen is that, for at least he makes the point he will change the caste system, and considering what he pulled out in the past, it's quite possible he is able to.

You don't kill Bhelen, Bhelen commits suicide by assembly.

[Sarah1281]

He didn't win his way just through bribing people. Many supported him out of spite for Trian, and others just because they thought he was a better choice for house Aeducan.



Either way. It is very selfish to kill members of your own house, and not side with Bhelen based on the assumption his changes will not survive, when the epilogue is quite clear in that manner.

We don't know that people supported him out of spite or because they thought he'd be best. Why would they? He made sure not to appear more than adequate while he was setting his betrayal up so if people did think he was great it wouldn't have worked and you can bet Trian's detractors supported the sibling they saw being awesome: the DN. The only ones we saw support him not out of bribery were members of House Aeducan who knew with Trian and you gone he was the best hope and merchants who wanted greater ties to the Surface and think Bhelen is more likely to do that (you know who has GREAT ties with the Surface? You. And the Ferelden monarch owes you everything).



Oh, like Bhelen's 'I want to be king now so die siblings!' wasn't selfish? Not to mention they made it MORE than clear I wasn't a member of House Aeducan at the time so this is just like if I'd been an exiled Helmi instead.



And Bhelen kept his progressive tendencise on the DL so unless you listened to Harrowmont's crier on the 'Bhelen hates tradition' front you have no reason to believe he'll make any changes at all, let alone ones that will last.

[Costin_Razvan]

And Bhelen kept his progressive tendencise on the DL so unless you listened to Harrowmont's crier on the 'Bhelen hates tradition' front you have no reason to believe he'll make any changes at all, let alone ones that will last.

Speak with the merchant near Dusttown. He informs you what Bhelen plans to do. Seriously I was able to discover what Bhelen planned to do on my first DN playthrough, it's not too hard.

 Oh, like Bhelen's 'I want to be king now so die siblings!' wasn't selfish? 

It's not selfish to do so when your eldest brother is a gigantic fool who would never have taken the throne, and the second eldest child is either an incompetent or would have killed him, and it's not selfish to do so because you want to save Orzammar.

To give an analogy. Was Loghain selfish for letting Cailan die at Ostagar and then proclaiming himself regent because he did not feel anyone else could lead Fereldan?

The better question is: What makes you siding against him not selfish? Your siding against your House, killing your brother, cousin etc.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 mai 2010 - 12:44 .

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

A good Aeducan doesn't kill members of their own House to put a puppet Harrowmont on the throne that they plan to replace, just out of sheer spite! Bhelen had his reasons. You were either incompetent or would have killed him.

And no you don't need to metagame to be a good Aeducan. A good Aeducan serves Orzammar first and foremost, choosing Bhelen is that, for at least he makes the point he will change the caste system, and considering what he pulled out in the past, it's quite possible he is able to.

Besides isn't Sarah metagaming against Bhelen by deciding against him just out of what he MIGHT say when you meet him?

It wasn't just spite and Harrowmont was only up there as a placeholder for a little while to stop Bhelen from becoming king. He wasn't there long enough to really matter. We don't know Bhelen wants to change the caste system and why should we believe the civil war that's liable to cause would help Orzammar? 

And I always meet with Bhelen. He spitefully insults me the entire conversation and convinces me that him as king will not be in my best interest.

And Bhelen's Assembly support won't back him when he tries to take their power, which is why he has all those problems with them.

@Knight: I'm not saying what he did was easy or unimpressive but he simply cannot bribe half the Assembly whenever he wants something done and I wasn't convinced he could get his goals accomplished without bankrupting his House.

[Costin_Razvan]

@Knight: I'm not saying what he did was easy or unimpressive but he simply cannot bribe half the Assembly whenever he wants something done and I wasn't convinced he could get his goals accomplished without bankrupting his House.

You know. I am just done with the bullcrap argument that my character can't know this or that. That's just idiotic, and I had enough of it from Alistair fangirls. If you want to RP like that, then by all means, but seriously stop arguing like that.

The fact of the matter is that Bhelen does become a good King, while Harrowmont denies letting troops into Orzammar. And he is king with you heir to House Aeducan, ( NOT THE THRONE ), so until he dies months later ( presumably by the time Awakening starts ) you can't even start to try and claim the Throne for yourself.

So yeah, believe what you will. I am sticking with facts.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 mai 2010 - 12:48 .

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And Bhelen kept his progressive tendencise on the DL so unless you listened to Harrowmont's crier on the 'Bhelen hates tradition' front you have no reason to believe he'll make any changes at all, let alone ones that will last.

Speak with the merchant near Dusttown. He informs you what Bhelen plans to do. Seriously I was able to discover what Bhelen planned to do on my first DN playthrough, it's not too hard.

I heard that too but how is random merchant supposed to be a trusted source of information? Where did he hear this? Was he just assuming it? I can't believe if he did hear about it from a Bhelen rep that he'd go around sharing it when he says 'and Bhelen doesn't want people to know but...' 

 Oh, like Bhelen's 'I want to be king now so die siblings!' wasn't selfish? 

It's not selfish to do so when your eldest brother is a gigantic fool who would never have taken the throne, and the second eldest child is either an incompetent or would have killed him, and it's not selfish to do so because you want to save Orzammar.

To give an analogy. Was Loghain selfish for letting Cailan die at Ostagar and then proclaiming himself regent because he did not feel anyone else could lead Fereldan?

So you're incompetent because you don't kill Bhelen? There isn't much need to if he's not planning a giant Xanatos Roulette as no one really cares about him and Trian's still in the picture. You can kill Trian and even if you don't that just means you weren't stupid enough to confess to Bhelen your intentions ahead of time but it doesn't mean you weren't going to.

[soignee]

let me attempt some sleep and then I'll write the next chapter, boxercise kicked my ass and my mind is like glooping out of my earrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Herr Uhl]

soignee wrote...

let me attempt some sleep and then I'll write the next chapter, boxercise kicked my ass and my mind is like glooping out of my earrrrrrrrrrrrrr

No!

[Costin_Razvan]

"Throws cookies at Sten."



PC: Get her!

Sten: It shall be done. "Grabs soignee kicking and screaming back towards her PC to write."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
@Knight: I'm not saying what he did was easy or unimpressive but he simply cannot bribe half the Assembly whenever he wants something done and I wasn't convinced he could get his goals accomplished without bankrupting his House.

You're right, he could intimidate the Assembly. And as we've seen, Bhelen commands great loyalty from warriors and other houses. The entire Silent Sisters order is loyal to Bhelen for instance. The Aeducans stand with him...etc.
In addition to his deals with surface merchants and granting casteless rights, which are hinted at, would grant him a powerful base in terms of financial ressources and manpower. 
Bhelen's crier criticizes Harrowmont for kicking casteless in the street and for not respecting anyone under his position. That's pretty revolutionary as no one in Orzammar would think kicking a casteless to be a crime. And that implies that the castless are in fact persons to be respected.  
 
All in all, Bhelen had the most tools at his disposal to deal with the Assembly as he saw fit. Not so for Harrowmont.
So it was pretty clear for Dain who was the better ruler.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 mai 2010 - 12:52 .

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

@Knight: I'm not saying what he did was easy or unimpressive but he simply cannot bribe half the Assembly whenever he wants something done and I wasn't convinced he could get his goals accomplished without bankrupting his House.

You know. I am just done with the bullcrap argument that my character can't know this or that. That's just idiotic, and I had enough of it from Alistair fangirls. If you want to RP like that, then by all means, but seriously stop arguing like that.

The fact of the matter is that Bhelen does become a good King, while Harrowmont denies letting troops into Orzammar. And he is king with you heir to House Aeducan, ( NOT THE THRONE ), so until he dies months later ( presumably by the time Awakening starts ) you can't even start to try and claim the Throne for yourself.

So yeah, believe what you will. I am sticking with facts.

I know he doesn't name you heir to the throne but if he's such a crap king then should you not mysteriously disappear it isn't unreasonable that you could get it back.

And if you cannot realistically base your King decision on the epilogue. If your character has no way of knowing the future then unless you metagame it cannot be part of the decision. Why is that so frustrating? There is every indication that Bhelen will be a stronger king than Harrowmont but not that he'll be the savior of the dwarven race.

[soignee]

GIVING IN TO SLEEEEPPPP tomorrow morning I write I promise, set the alarm and everything.

[Costin_Razvan]

Whoever said he would be savior of the Dwarven Race? The fact alone Harrowmont is a very weak king while Bhelen is a strong should be enough as a decision.

If you want to disregard the epilogue when you are making the decision in your own personal game, then by all bloody means. I sincerely don't care.

However don't use that as an argument.

soignee: 

Sten: No. ( brandishes sword, pointing it at Zevran's neck )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 mai 2010 - 12:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
If you want to disregard the epilogue when you are making the decision in your own personal game, then by all bloody means. I sincerely don't care.

However using that as an argument is beyond annoying.

Obviously when you are truly RPing a character, you should not think of the epilogues and use whatever facts your character (not you) has in front of his / her face.
 
Sarah is not claiming that Bhelen is a bad king. She is saying it wasn't clear for her character that Bhelen is a good king. What's so annoying about that?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 mai 2010 - 12:58 .

[Sarah1281]

If you want to disregard the epilogue when you are making the decision in your own personal game, then by all bloody means. I sincerely don't care.

However using that as an argument is beyond annoying.

Using 'I am not physic and cannot read epilogue cards' as a basis for a decision is annoying? It's really the definition of RP.

I don't even remotely think Harrowmont would make a better king, just that Bhelen's epilogue comes out a lot stronger then is shown in-game (ignoring the one year-long coup) as you only see hints and if he were really smart he would have accepted Harrowmont's rule, built up his support more, waited until Harrowmont died of 'natural causes' and became king then instead of committing suicide.

Oh, and the Silent Sisters only support him because the Aeducans are the current ruling House accordig to the SS's translator.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 19 mai 2010 - 12:59 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Sarah is not claiming that Bhelen is a bad king. She is saying it wasn't clear for her character. What's so annoying about that?

About as annoying as arguing against Loghain haters, who claim their characters don't know he is honest about redemption.

Seriously, there is proof, and we both have listed it, yet she continues saying it's not enough...

But let me do a recap:

He murdered Trian by hiring castless thugs, and then blaming you for it. At the spot no one even suspected him of doing it, ( Dace could be considered, but I bet he was hand in hand with him ). The fact he was able to mask his trail of hiring the thugs is a mark of his genius.

Then he convinced half the entire assembly to turn against the favored child of Endrin. After Endrin died he convinced House Aeducan to support him wholeheartedly( and knowing Dwarven Politics, it wans't just because he was Endrin's only remaining child." 

He brings in a castless family under his wing even while Rica didn't have a born child. ( Crier mentions this if I am not mistaken )

He was upfront about wanting to change things, as proven by what the merchant says. ( who doesn't have a reason to lie. )

He is determined to take whatever measures to combat the Blight, while Harrowmont merely says he will do what he can, not whatever must be done.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 mai 2010 - 01:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
I don't even remotely think Harrowmont would make a better king, just that Bhelen's epilogue comes out a lot stronger then is shown in-game (ignoring the one year-long coup) as you only see hints and if he were really smart he would have accepted Harrowmont's rule, built up his support more, waited until Harrowmont died of 'natural causes' and became king then instead of committing suicide. 

I definately agree. Bhelen's attempted coup was very uncalled for. I think he was genuinely frustrated at that point and his nerves just exploded.

Sarah1281 wrote...
Oh, and the Silent Sisters only support him because the Aeducans are the current ruling House accordig to the SS's translator.

It's not really important how. The point is, he has an entire military order at his side.

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Sarah is not claiming that Bhelen is a bad king. She is saying it wasn't clear for her character. What's so annoying about that?

About as annoying as arguing against Loghain haters, who claim their characters don't know he is honest about redemption.

Seriously, there is proof, and we both have listed it, yet she continues saying it's not enough...

With Loghain there is no proof he's serious about redemption and you either think the risk is worth it or you don't.

There is no proof Bhelen will be a good king as the proof only occurs once he is. There are hints that you may or may not encounter during the game, depending on if you feel the need to poll everyone you meet on who they want as King.

[Herr Uhl]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Sarah is not claiming that Bhelen is a bad king. She is saying it wasn't clear for her character. What's so annoying about that?

About as annoying as arguing against Loghain haters, who claim their characters don't know he is honest about redemption.

Seriously, there is proof, and we both have listed it, yet she continues saying it's not enough...

She isn't saying that he is bad. Her character doesn't know if he is the best choice.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Seriously, there is proof, and we both have listed it, yet she continues saying it's not enough...

There never is enough proof in politics and that's why DA is brilliant. It's never really clear.
 
Yes, there is proof that Bhelen is great. But, there is the fact that he is very young, so inexperienced in administration, while the codex for Harrowmont says he is experienced in this field.
Social reforms might lead to a civil war, if he isn't strong enough to keep order. 
Acting in a not so diplomatic manner with a DN might be interpretted as hostil;e intentions (I don't)....etc.

So it wasn't crystal clear that Bhelen was the good choice. It was heavily hinted at.  

[Costin_Razvan]

I definately agree. Bhelen's attempted coup was very uncalled for. I think he was genuinely frustrated at that point and his nerves just exploded.

I think that was when the writers just wanted to get rid of him. What do you think would have happened the second moment you left Orzammar if Bhelen had a sense of mind?

An all out assault with his followers on Harrowmont in the throne room. Or perhaps just a tad bit of poison in his first meal.

 So it wasn't crystal clear that Bhelen was the good choice. It was heavily hinted at.  

Obviously not. But I would stick with what Zevran says about Harrowmont, that is by far the most convincing argument to side with Bhelen.

"So is this to be your king? A man who cannot even get his own troops to fight."

You can say he is an assassin, but an assassin who knows the workings of the political system very well. So do you really want a king who cannot even get troops to fight? Especially when you are recruiting an army for the Blight? 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 mai 2010 - 01:12 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Knight. I have a curiosity: Did your DN kill Trian?