11146 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And I agree, a Bhelen one would be quite cool.
If I was good at drawing (I suck), I would have definately drawn something to honor the savior of the Dwarves.

How long do you think Bhelen will be on the throne before people start calling him that? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And I agree, a Bhelen one would be quite cool.
If I was good at drawing (I suck), I would have definately drawn something to honor the savior of the Dwarves.

How long do you think Bhelen will be on the throne before people start calling him that? 

His reforms will be providing both short term and logn term benefits.
If anything goes according to plan, then Bhelen's status as savior would be acknowledged early in his rule, which would be later cemented by his legacy.

The epilogue does say many consider him as a visionary, dragiing Orzammar to modernity.

[Costin_Razvan]

Or Bioware could just screw with him...it's a possibility "sighs"



Off-Topic: Knight, considering how you have defended Loghain tooth and nail, I am surprised you are not defending TIM on the ME 2 forums.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Off-Topic: Knight, considering how you have defended Loghain tooth and nail, I am surprised you are not defending TIM on the ME 2 forums.

I did, in two threads (one of which was about the collector base). Then I got bored. The ME forum is too hectic and the community is not as mature as this one.

One TIM thread had the very very first comment resort to Hitler, so no thank you.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 mai 2010 - 11:38 .

[Sarah1281]

I like TIM but I'm not sure my Akuze-survivor will be able to give him the Cerberus Base after finding out Cerberus was behind THAT mess in ME1. He really should have offered up some sort of explanation for that...

Edit:

Or Bioware could just screw with him...it's a possibility "sighs"

If they do return to Orzammar in the future they are going to need to keep most of it the same no matter who is King so I'm thinking little Endrin will be King and either a lot of Bhelen's reforms will be repealed to fit with the Harrowmont ending or Endrin proves his father's son and goes crazy with the reforms if Harrowmont was King to fit the Bhelen ending.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 23 mai 2010 - 11:46 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea I almost forgot about the ME "origins" (because they are mostly irrelevent). But yes I can understand a Akuze survivor not trusting Cerberus at all. And yes, we should have been able to question Cerberus on this and its other activities in ME1. But a simple answer might be, Bioware was not intending for Cerberus to have such an important role initially, so designed them to be mysterious inexplicable villains for boring sidequests in ME1.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 mai 2010 - 11:52 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't think Cerberus was behind Akuze. I mean certainly they used Tombs for research, but there is no damned evidence they lured the Thresher Maws there.

One TIM thread had the very very first comment resort to Hitler, so no thank you.

I just had the urge to punch something for the stupidity of that statement.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea I almost forgot about the ME "origins" (because they are mostly irrelevent). But yes I can understand a Akuze survivor not trusting Cerberus at all. And yes, we should have been able to question Cerberus on this and its other activities in ME1. But a simpel answer might be, Bioware was not intenting for Cerberus to have such an important role, so deisgned them to be mysterious villains for boring sidequests in ME1.

I'd pretty much forgotten as well since haven't played ME1 for so long but then I got that email from the only other survivor who I had managed to talk down about how he now wants to kill me for working with Cerberus - creepy much? - and even if Cerberus at large wasn't responsible like it's possible they weren't supporting everything that happened to Jack, as far as Shepard knows based on the evidence available they are behind it and so it really should have been addressed.

[Costin_Razvan]

So Sarah. with the fate of the Galaxy you would just destroy the base out of spite?

That's just petty....I mean Bhelen is one thing, but that's just...

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 23 mai 2010 - 11:53 .

[Herr Uhl]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So Sarah. with the fate of the Galaxy you would just destroy the base out of spite?

That's just petty....

You are assuming that Cerberus is the only way.

And TIM saying that he knew nothing about the experiments reminds me of Xanatos.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
I'd pretty much forgotten as well since haven't played ME1 for so long but then I got that email from the only other survivor who I had managed to talk down about how he now wants to kill me for working with Cerberus - creepy much? - and even if Cerberus at large wasn't responsible like it's possible they weren't supporting everything that happened to Jack, as far as Shepard knows based on the evidence available they are behind it and so it really should have been addressed.

True, but TIM does not have to be responsable. As we know from ME2, after EDI is not longer blocked, that Cerberus is divided into task oriented cells (tasks set by TIM), with a large degree of autonomy and freedom for them to get the job done.

This however does not exclude the possibility that TIM did know everything about their activity and let them do it. But we do have one example were it's clear a Cerberus cell did somethign without TIM's knowldge (Jack's facility). Unless you believe that TIM set false evidence for this, but I think that's unlikely.

So if TIM did not know about Jack's case, it's also possible he didn't really know about the other cases.

[Costin_Razvan]

You are assuming that Cerberus is the only way.

Pardon me if I would rather stick with Cerberus, who is the only organization in the whole galaxy who has done something about the situation. TIM might have known more then he was letting on, or he might not have, but the fact of the matter is that Cerberus did something about the Collectors.

Loghain/Alistair/Anora, Bhelen/Harrowmont, Branka/Caridin are all viable choices, where you can find some good reason for both sides.

But to destroy the base, you have to be freaking retarded. At the very least it provides solid evidence that you can show to the Council....which of course they will ignore with their heads crammed up their asses, but still. Even more it adds insight into reaper tech.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 24 mai 2010 - 12:02 .

[Gilsa]

I'm sorry, was saving the council in ME1 a big earth shattering decision? Did it have ramifications across ME2? No. Some dialogues were changed, but the ME2 played out the same way. Whether you save the base or not in ME2 is not a big game-changer. The objectives are going to be the same in ME3 regardless of whether TiM got the finger or not. We'll still save the galaxy and get a big freaking red or blue planet behind us as the music swells. Game over.

[Costin_Razvan]

Did it have ramifications across ME2? No

On the main plot? No it does not ( since you are fighting in the Terminus systems ). On the larger scale, yes it does. Humanity is treated with mistrust by most of the alien species in the galaxy, a new war might begin between Turians and Humans.

You just threw whatever stability the galaxy had out of the window. Despite the fact I hate the Council, I save their asses because of the stability they bring in the Galaxy.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 24 mai 2010 - 12:07 .

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
I'd pretty much forgotten as well since haven't played ME1 for so long but then I got that email from the only other survivor who I had managed to talk down about how he now wants to kill me for working with Cerberus - creepy much? - and even if Cerberus at large wasn't responsible like it's possible they weren't supporting everything that happened to Jack, as far as Shepard knows based on the evidence available they are behind it and so it really should have been addressed.

True, but TIM does not have to be responsable. As we know from ME2, after EDI is not longer blocked, that Cerberus is divided into task oriented cells (tasks set by TIM), with a large degree of autonomy and freedom for them to get the job done.

This however does not exclude the possibility that TIM did know everything about their activity and let them do it. But we do have one example were it's clear a Cerberus cell did somethign without TIM's knowldge (Jack's facility). Unless you believe that TIM set false evidence for this, but I think that's unlikely.

So if TIM did not know about Jack's case, it's also possible he didn't really know about the other cases.

I know, which is why I wanted to hear him deny involvemet. He's spent two years and a ridiculous amount of money bringing Shepard back and since no one in the first game shut up about how she's an Akuze survivor he had to have known as well. If he's not responsible or even if he were why not make sure to clear the air so she doesn't assume his silence is an admission of guilt? 

So Sarah. with the fate of the Galaxy you would just destroy the base out of spite?

That's just petty....I mean Bhelen is one thing, but that's just...

The Bhelen thing was only partially out of spite and he was the one who started being spiteful.

As for Shepard...metagaming-wise, the universe will probably be saved no matter what and I haven't reached that decision again and the last time I played was the week it came out so I'll need to look at the decision agan. Without that, I don't know that we'll need the Collector Base to destroy the Repears although it would probably help and I haven't forgotten all the **** Cerberus pulled in the first game which make me uncertain that they can be trusted with it. It's also blatantly obvious that Cerberus went through a great deal of trouble to find non-xenophobic non-Cerbrus-fanatics (except Miranda but there was a reason for that) people to staff the crew and to seek out people that I was familiar with like Joker and the Doctor. Not to mention making the ship look exactly the same...they were going for effect. Clearly they were going though a great deal of effort trying to get me to trust them so their lack of obvious evil in this game doesn't mean that they've changed since the first one.

I don't know, I'll have to see what happens once I get there.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
 Humanity is treated with mistrust by most of the alien species in the galaxy, a new war might begin between Turians and Humans.

Humans are treated with mistrust with or without the council. And a Turian human war is unlikely in either cases, but the Turians did illegally and secretly steal and reverse engineer reaper technology.

But there are changes in details yes. A human controlled council has much better security and lower crime rates, but decreased rights. In addition, if you listen to the news, the System's Alliance is a lot mroe active and aggresive in dealing with Batarians. Also, the treaty limiting the Alliance military is repelled completely.

[Sarah1281]

Oh, the Turians want a war? That's a far cry from talking about paying more reparations...

[Costin_Razvan]

Oh, the Turians want a war? That's a far cry from talking about paying more reparations...

The Turians are massing ships and ignoring the previous treaties, should you leave the Council to die.

 Humans are treated with mistrust with or without the council

True enough, but going by the Codex you see that humanity is respected for saving the Council, while if the Council dies there are far more people who hate them.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 24 mai 2010 - 12:16 .

[Herr Uhl]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh, the Turians want a war? That's a far cry from talking about paying more reparations...

The Turians are massing ships and ignoring the previous treaties, should you leave the Council to die.

Well, considering that humans came there, what 30 years (I have no idea to be honest) ago, and now pretty much run the show, preparing for something like that is pretty reasonable.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
It's also blatantly obvious that Cerberus went through a great deal of trouble to find non-xenophobic non-Cerbrus-fanatics (except Miranda but there was a reason for that) people to staff the crew and to seek out people that I was familiar with like Joker and the Doctor. Not to mention making the ship look exactly the same...they were going for effect.

I disagree. All of the crew are Cerberus loyalists (up until they become loyal to Shepard). I do not get the impression that they are fake and sent only to reassure us. Every single one of them is an expert in his / her field and naturally, are sent to help Shepard in his mission. They all worked for Cerberus for many years and are experts. So why can't they be proper Cerberus agents? Probably because people are already "convinced" that Cerberus is xenophobic and speciest, which I do not believe is the case.
 
As for the Normandy's looks, that's because it was Cerberus who pressured the Alliance into building the first Normandy in the first place and they had its design (and probably contributed to it). And they upgraded it.

People are way too suspicious about Cerberus. TIM could have vvery easily put a fake memory chip or any mental alteration to Shepard or even a bomb (as per Miranda's request) that would not have necessitated all this supposed fakness, but he did not.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2010 - 12:18 .

[Sarah1281]

I'm not saying that they aren't loyal or are faking and I'm not saying that Cerberus is completely xenophobic but we've seen that there are plenty of people in Cerberus who are and I'm willing to bet that TIM carefully screened who he put on the ship and anyone who might make Shepard suspicious of Cerberus again wasn't going to make the cut.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not saying that they aren't loyal or are faking and I'm not saying that Cerberus is completely xenophobic but we've seen that there are plenty of people in Cerberus who are and I'm willing to bet that TIM carefully screened who he put on the ship and anyone who might make Shepard suspicious of Cerberus again wasn't going to make the cut.

I think talent was the primary factor in considering recruitment.
Maybe they also made sure the idiots within Cerberus (and there are some as Miranda says) didn't make the cut. But I think talent comes first.

If Cerberus has many people like that, then I trust it well enough in the war against the Reapers and beyond (with some reservations).
 

[Costin_Razvan]

Or simply TIM selected the best people for the job. Professional soldiers, as is your crew, will always put aside their own feelings regarding some people, for the good of the mission. It is what is drilled into them.

You follow your orders, with no hesitation and sure as hell no questioning, that is how the modern military works.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 24 mai 2010 - 12:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
You follow your orders, with no hesitation and sure as hell no questioning, that is how the modern military works.

Cerberus does not work that way. Each cell is given enough autonomy and freedom to do as they see fit, in the process of getting a certain task done.

TIM does not order Shepard around. He simply guides him and gives directions.  

[Costin_Razvan]

Each Cell has an operative which leads it though, and they make all the calls. I wasn't referring to those in the higher chain of command, like Miranda, but towards the grunts that make up most of your ship's crew.

 TIM does not order Shepard around. He simply guides him and gives directions.  

Shepard is not actually part of Cerberus, he is working with them, not for them.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 24 mai 2010 - 12:35 .