11146 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

But he's also a polite one and if they were both equally competent then you'd be hard-pressed to find many people who would go for the obviously soulless one which is why it's too bad that he's not.

[Costin_Razvan]

Bhelen is also polite, not to the DN maybe ( but I think that's just his surprise at seeing his brother/sister standing with him. ) but to the others he is just as polite as Harrowmont.

The difference is that there are no rumors regarding Harrowmont, while there ones with Bhelen. And Dulin is FAR more polite then Vartag is.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 mai 2010 - 07:31 .

[Kryyptehk]

Bah, I know I'm probably too late to be posting this, but I care not! lol

Modifié par Kryyptehk, 26 mai 2010 - 07:33 .

[soignee]

he's not polite to the DC I don't think, unless your DC is a brainless thug and eats up the compliments.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nothing indicates that Bhelen is mean with Rica and it's entirely possible that he is nice. In fact, he initially appeared to be a very nice kind of guy, who likes to joke around and make fun of Trian. Of course that depends on how you define being nice (I think one can be both ruthlessly devious and nice at the same time, depending on the person involved).

I don't know. It seems to me that Bhelen is nice enough with Rica, at least for the moment. And Bhelen is polite and has charm, except when talking to a DN, the reason I believe is an attempt at provocation. But we might never know.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mai 2010 - 07:34 .

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Bhelen is also polite, not to the DN maybe ( but I think that's just his surprise at seeing his brother/sister standing with him. ) but to the others he is just as polite as Harrowmont.

The difference is that there are no rumors regarding Harrowmont, while there ones with Bhelen. And Dulin is FAR more polite then Vartag is.

I refuse to believe that Vartag didn't immediately run off and inform Bhelen that his sibling was back and that he was testing them to see if they really did plan on working for them the minute they went off to go find Lady/Lord Dace and Lord Helmi and that's if he didn't already hear about it. Going down to the Deep Roads and saving Lord Dace's expedition before coming back had to have taken a few hours so he should have had some time to recover from that shock.

And yeah, I will never understand why Bhelen couldn't have chosen a more personable ruthless second.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nothing indicates that Bhelen is mean with Rica and it's entirely possible that he is nice. In fact, he initially appeared to be a very nice kind of guy, who likes to joke around and make fun of Trian. Of course that depends on how you define being (I think one can be both ruthlessly devious and nice at the same time, depending on the person involved).
I don't know. It seems to me that Bhelen is nice enough with Rica, at least for the moment. And Bhelen is polite and has charm, except when talking to a DN, the reason I believe is an attempt at provocation. But we might never know.

I like to think that Bhelen truly loves Rica. And she goes on and on about how nice he is, so it isn't inconcievable that even if he didn't really love her, that he would still be nice to her.

But Bhelen eases tension in between the classes, which I would think is because he wants to be with Rica, besides just wanting to make babies with her.

[Sarah1281]

But Bhelen eases tension in between the classes, which I would think is because he wants to be with Rica, besides just wanting to make babies with her.

Well, that and he wants to throw them at the darkspawn to take back land. It's good for the dwarves but not necessarily out of the kindness of his possibly non-existent heart.

[BigBad]

The position of second is an important one in dwarven society. If you are the second to a high-profile and powerful figure, then you yourself are by association a high-profile and powerful figure, albeit less so than your lord. For a powermonger like Bhelen, he's probably planning ahead. Should all his plans come to fruition and he becomes the absolute power in Orzammar, his greatest threat will be his second, who shares almost all of his own power. So . . he picks the dwarf who is most loyal and indebted to him, one who isn't too subtle and who probably won't make many allies. It's a preventative measure.

[Kryyptehk]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But Bhelen eases tension in between the classes, which I would think is because he wants to be with Rica, besides just wanting to make babies with her.

Well, that and he wants to throw them at the darkspawn to take back land. It's good for the dwarves but not necessarily out of the kindness of his possibly non-existent heart.

Why would that be a bad thing? Being part of the dwarven army would give the casteless jobs and a paycheck. And would help the dwarves push back the darkspawn.

[Sarah1281]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

But Bhelen eases tension in between the classes, which I would think is because he wants to be with Rica, besides just wanting to make babies with her.

Well, that and he wants to throw them at the darkspawn to take back land. It's good for the dwarves but not necessarily out of the kindness of his possibly non-existent heart.

Why would that be a bad thing? Being part of the dwarven army would give the casteless jobs and a paycheck. And would help the dwarves push back the darkspawn.

I didn't say it was a bad thing. In fact, I said it was a good thing. I just don't feel he's doing it out of love for Rica.

[soignee]

See I'm writing it that Bhelen and even Harrowmont know every move you make in the city, and you're being watched. There's no privacy, at all, they even know what you had for breakfast I'm betting. Both of them are using you, despite Origin, to get what they want.

And I agree Vartag was a nobody. pobably a struggling noble family in need of a leg up and grateful for anything Bhelen throws his way.

[soignee]

Oh and I like to think Bhelen loves Rica, but is reluctant to show it. Doesn't seem to be a proclaiming sort, really.

[Costin_Razvan]

Well, that and he wants to throw them at the darkspawn to take back land. It's good for the dwarves but not necessarily out of the kindness of his possibly non-existent heart.

We all know that you don't consider Bhelen to have a soul. I consider that naive.

Why? Would someone with a soul not do the things he did? That's just foolish thinking. I would do everything he has done without a second thought, and even more, and I have a soul, thank you very much.

People who talk about morality and are considered to be the good guys, don't stick with doing good stuff just for others. They do it for themselves, so they can sleep easily at night. Those that do the crap things in life. the pragmatists and the like, are not people who have a clear conscience and sleep well at night. ( unless they are complete bastards like Jarvia, but Bhelen isn't like that since he is doing this for betterment of the dwarves, not juts his ambitions )

P.S. Soignee, this is his greeting towards a DC.

Bhelen: Welcome to your new house, little sister. My Rica tells me you won the Grey Warden's attention at last year's Proving. ( VO: Warm, welcoming. )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 mai 2010 - 07:51 .

[soignee]

Jarvia's a complete bastard? Greedy, yes. Stupid for being greedy, but she is what Dust Town made her. I reckon Missa/DC would've been Jarvia if things were different. (I will ignore the whole starving in the cell thing, obviously.)

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Well, that and he wants to throw them at the darkspawn to take back land. It's good for the dwarves but not necessarily out of the kindness of his possibly non-existent heart.

We all know that you don't consider Bhelen to have a soul. I consider that naive.

Why? Would someone with a soul not do the things he did? That's just foolish thinking. I would do everything he has done without a second thought, and even more, and I have a soul, thank you very much.

People who talk about morality and are considered to be the good guys, don't stick with doing good stuff just for others. They do it for themselves, so they can sleep easily at night. Those that do the crap things in lfe. the pragmatists and the like, are not people who have a clear conscience and sleep well at night. ( unless they are complete bastards like Jarvia, but Bhelen isn't like that since he is doing this for betterment of the dwarves, not juts his ambitions )

I don't literally mean he lacks a soul. Do dwarves even have souls in Thedas? They don't pass through the Fade. I don't happen to believe in the concept of souls anyway.

I don't think there is really any evidence one way or another about how, exactly, Bhelen is doing all of that for. Yes, he does end up improving things (at least until his death and then who knows what willhappen) but all of that also increases his own power so it could really go either way.

Although if you were a 'good guy' and that didn't end up making a mess of things like in Orzammar then what does it matter if you're doing it truly for other people or so you don't feel guilty for not doing it? You're still helping people. In the same vein, it really doesn't matter why Bhelen does his reforms if they help Orzammar I just don't see him wtih altruistic motives.

[Sarah1281]

soignee wrote...

Jarvia's a complete bastard? Greedy, yes. Stupid for being greedy, but she is what Dust Town made her. I reckon Missa/DC would've been Jarvia if things were different. (I will ignore the whole starving in the cell thing, obviously.)

Yeah, she was kind of a moron. If no one cares when she goes after casteless and she's been quite successful doing so and she only feels secure taking on anyone else because there isn't a King...well sooner or later Harrowmont would drop dead of old age if things couldn't be settled sooner and she'd have to face the consequences of pissing off the entire city.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 I just don't see him wtih altruistic motives.

Is there any kind of political leader with purely altruistic motives? The great leaders who actually made a difference at least?

It's not black and white. One can still do something out of self interest and considerations of the interests of the whole. One can project his self interest to that of the whole and vice versa. And that's what I think Bhelen is. He is not purely selfless, nor is he purely selfish.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mai 2010 - 07:57 .

[soignee]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

P.S. Soignee, this is his greeting towards a DC.

Bhelen: Welcome to your new house, little sister. My Rica tells me you won the Grey Warden's attention at last year's Proving. ( VO: Warm, welcoming. )

I know, I got the Bhelen toolset conversations open now. I take the VO directions with a grain of salt, to be honest, as EJ has mentioned. They're just stage directions, doesn't mean the tone is accurate. It may be warm and welcoming, but I don't believe it. He practically ladles on the platitudes/patronisation.

[Costin_Razvan]

Or he is simply grateful for the help you have given him...

 Is there any kind of political leader with purely altruistic motives? The great leaders who actually made a difference at least?

It's not black and white. One can still do something out of self interest and considerations of the interests of the whole. One can project his self interest to that of the whole and vice versa. And that's what I think Bhelen is. He is not purely selfless, nor is he purely selfish.

That is what made Augustus and Caesar, the greatest  romans to ever live.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 mai 2010 - 08:06 .

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Or he is simply grateful for the help you have given him...

 Is there any kind of political leader with purely altruistic motives? The great leaders who actually made a difference at least?

It's not black and white. One can still do something out of self interest and considerations of the interests of the whole. One can project his self interest to that of the whole and vice versa. And that's what I think Bhelen is. He is not purely selfless, nor is he purely selfish.

That is what made Augustus and Caesar, the greatest  romans to ever live.

I'm really not saying that I'm expecting a great altruism from him or the other politicians and I know it isn't practical. I just take issue with all the people who say that Bhlene 'practically sells his soul to the Archdemon so he can marry the woman he loves.' That wasn't in this thread but I've seen that line of thinking before. I believe he does what he does first for power, then for Orzammar, and Rica might maybe factor into it a little at the end.

[soignee]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Or he is simply grateful for the help you have given him...

Nope, he's a politician. Not saying all politicians are silver tongued bastards, but honey catches more flies then vinegar.

[Costin_Razvan]

I believe he does what he does first for power, then for Orzammar, and Rica might maybe factor into it a little at the end.

And I believe he does it for all those things in equal measure.

 Nope, he's a politician. Not saying all politicians are silver tongued bastards, but honey catches more flies then vinegar.

Really? He seemed genuine to me when he thanks you for the help you give him. Or are you just a cynical bastard again?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 26 mai 2010 - 08:13 .

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I believe he does what he does first for power, then for Orzammar, and Rica might maybe factor into it a little at the end.

And I believe he does it for all those things in equal measure.

And his motives really don't matter so much in the end. Still, the fact that there are people who believe he had Trian killed and sets the DN up to be killed so he can take the throne and generally be all sorts of nasty Orzammar politican ruthless and then goes about turning society on his head simply so he can marry Rica even though that is only a possibility if you're the DC and she becomes a noble...ugh. If that were his sole motive for everything I would lose all respect for him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I believe he does what he does first for power, then for Orzammar, and Rica might maybe factor into it a little at the end.

And I believe he does it for all those things in equal measure.

Same here.

And Sarah, I do not believe that Bhelen's story with Rica is romance tragedy with Bhelen fighting against fate and prejudice to be with his love. Bhelen would find the prospect amusing.
But it has little to do with power. What does Rica offer him? Other than a bad reputation I mean?

Bhelen's alliance with the casteless is not purely self interested as it makes little sense. Practically no one in Orzammar thinks what's happening to the casteless is bad. Practically all castes despise the casteless. So if anything, he would weaken his position instead of strengthening it as he would earn the ire of all castes (hence why he only subtly hints at reform). 

His reforms towards the casteless are for long term considerations (both for his rule and Orzammar's future) and not his own short term benefit.