11146 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

He got together with Rica for the same reason any noble became involved with a noble hunter: he wanted a son. The reason Rica likes him so much is, at least initially if you hear her go on about him in the DC origin, is that he treats her like a person. That is HUGE given she's casteless but not necessarily 'OMG, I love you' huge. Bhelen may fall for her later but the reason he sought out a noble hunter was so he could have a son and he's hardly the only noble to do so though traditional quarters do not approve.



Bhelen doesn't just grant the casteless rights. He uses rights as a means to bribe them into fighting darkspawn and reclaiming land. Since now non-nobles and warriors can fight darkspawn it takes away some of the prestige which likely weakens their position. None of it has to be about wanting to improve thier lot (and if you listen to what he says about Mardy then it implies that he really isn't any more personally concerned than Lord Dace was about the Surface Dwarves) and it doesn't appear to weaken him any.

[KnightofPhoenix]

It's the noble hunters who want a son. The nobles usually want to have fun and it's a risk. If they give birth to a daughter, they have to abandon her and consider her scum. And it doesn't explain why Bhelen showers Rica with gifts. Bhelen could have easily married a girl of some powerful house to secure an alliance, would have been very useful. Since the Assembly was 50/50, had he ensured the loyalty of one house, via marriage, he would have become king. So why didn't he do it? Because I believe his feelings to Rica are genuine.

There is no rights without responsabilities, of course. The Casteless would have to earn their rights. But that's definately improving their lot. By saying that the Casteless are in fact persons who can be worthy of respect and can have honor, that alone is a huge improvement to their condition. What I meant about the initial comment is that it's not in Bhelen's interests to be allied with the casteless when he wasn't king, and yet he subtly hinted at reform.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 mai 2010 - 08:47 .

[Sarah1281]

Showering with gifts seems to be a common noble thing in regards to noble hunters. It's been awhile since I've played DC but someone (Rica maybe?) was talking about all the gifts her fellow noble hunters were getting and how one of them even got a dress or something despite not having borne a son. And why not? If they can afford it they might as well throw a few baubles their mistress' way. That kind of thing happens IRL as well even if the wealthy man doesn't love the woman he's sleeping with.



Part of it might be just having fun on the nobles part but they also want to increase the strength of their House (and the population is shrinking) by having a son. It's really more of a risk on the noble hunter's part because if there is a daughter the nolbe can wash his hands of the baby and possibly of her while the mother is either stuck with a child she really can't afford and has to get back into shape to try again or she has to abandon the baby to die.

[Costin_Razvan]

Bhelen accepts Rica into his household, before they even conceive a son. It takes nine months for a child to be born, and you are gone on year, and Rica tells you just as you are about to leave that she found someone who will take care of her.

[soignee]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's the noble hunters who want a son. The nobles usually want to have fun and it's a risk. If they give birth to a daughter, they have to abandon her and consider her scum.

And that they need more nobles.

And it doesn't explain why Bhelen showers Rica with gifts. Bhelen could have easily married a girl of some powerful house to secure an alliance, would have been very useful. Since the Assembly was 50/50, had he ensured the loyalty of one house, via marriage, he would have become king. So why didn't he do it? Because I believe his feelings to Rica are genuine.

There is no rights without responsabilities, of course. The Casteless would have to earn their rights. But that's definately improving their lot. By saying that the Casteless are in fact persons who can be worthy of respect and can have honor, that alone is a huge improvement to their condition. What I meant about the initial comment is that it's not in Bhelen's interests to be allied with the casteless when he wasn't king, and yet he subtly hinted at reform.

This is true, but his conversations with even the dwarf commoner do not reveal this.

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Bhelen accepts Rica into his household, before they even conceive a son. It takes nine months for a child to be born, and you are gone on year, and Rica tells you just as you are about to leave that she found someone who will take care of her.

I thought she said he found her an apartment? Remember, the DC origin is still a week before the DN one and she didn't live in the Palace then and flees when she sees you. Besides, since he's not the head of House Aeducan yet and I can't see Endrin approving I don't think she was living at the Palace until after Little Endrin was born which was only shortly before the King died. I think Rica said Little Endrin was a month old and someone said that the succession question had been going on for three weeks.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Part of it might be just having fun on the nobles part but they also want to increase the strength of their House (and the population is shrinking) by having a son. It's really more of a risk on the noble hunter's part because if there is a daughter the nolbe can wash his hands of the baby and possibly of her while the mother is either stuck with a child she really can't afford and has to get back into shape to try again or she has to abandon the baby to die.

True. Stil, I think Bhelen would have been better off if he married a noble and secured an alliance with her house.

@ Soignee. Lots of things are not said in the game and it's open to speculation.  

[Kryyptehk]

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...
Part of it might be just having fun on the nobles part but they also want to increase the strength of their House (and the population is shrinking) by having a son. It's really more of a risk on the noble hunter's part because if there is a daughter the nolbe can wash his hands of the baby and possibly of her while the mother is either stuck with a child she really can't afford and has to get back into shape to try again or she has to abandon the baby to die. [/quote]
  [/quote]

To be completely honest, I'm pretty sure they abandon babies they don't want in the Deep Roads. I wonder how much the population has suffered because of this practice? Though I imagine they don't count casteless children as real people.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Part of it might be just having fun on the nobles part but they also want to increase the strength of their House (and the population is shrinking) by having a son. It's really more of a risk on the noble hunter's part because if there is a daughter the nolbe can wash his hands of the baby and possibly of her while the mother is either stuck with a child she really can't afford and has to get back into shape to try again or she has to abandon the baby to die.

True. Stil, I think Bhelen would have been better off if he married a noble and secured an alliance with her house.

@ Soignee. Lots of things are not said in the game and it's open to speculation.  

I'm actually a little curious about that as well. He is really young and only a year before the origins he was conidered a child plus he was only third-in-line for the throne so before becoming an only child his prospects wouldn't have been the greatest so it's not hard to see why he wouldn't be married then. Plus, the DN is two years older than him and Trian for and neither of them are married although Trian is getting ready to propose to Lady Helmi.

In the year that follows that he probably should get married but if he didn't think anyone would oppose his ascension then he might not have thought he needed to and was planning to wait and see which House he could benefit the most from marrying a member of. Given the rumors about him being invoved with Trian's death and how Jaylia was going to marry him I can't imagine they'd be too pleased with him but he might be able to smooth that over by marrying one of them.

[soignee]

[quote]Kryyptehk wrote...



[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...
Part of it might be just having fun on the nobles part but they also want to increase the strength of their House (and the population is shrinking) by having a son. It's really more of a risk on the noble hunter's part because if there is a daughter the nolbe can wash his hands of the baby and possibly of her while the mother is either stuck with a child she really can't afford and has to get back into shape to try again or she has to abandon the baby to die. [/quote]
  [/quote]

To be completely honest, I'm pretty sure they abandon babies they don't want in the Deep Roads. I wonder how much the population has suffered because of this practice? Though I imagine they don't count casteless children as real people.

[/quote]

oh of course not. Just dust in the wind, obviously. *plays the duster blues on a broken harmonica*

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...
Though I imagine they don't count casteless children as real people.

They don't count any casteless as people. They are effectively nothing. 
I forgot what the Shaper said about the casteless precisely, but he said that the casteless are non-persons or something to that effect.

[Sarah1281]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Part of it might be just having fun on the nobles part but they also want to increase the strength of their House (and the population is shrinking) by having a son. It's really more of a risk on the noble hunter's part because if there is a daughter the nolbe can wash his hands of the baby and possibly of her while the mother is either stuck with a child she really can't afford and has to get back into shape to try again or she has to abandon the baby to die.

 
To be completely honest, I'm pretty sure they abandon babies they don't want in the Deep Roads. I wonder how much the population has suffered because of this practice? Though I imagine they don't count casteless children as real people.

They can't always do that, though, as having a casteless child who can't work as a thug and, in recent times, a noble hunter is such a drain on already limited finances that they would pretty much all be unwanted and yet there are quite a lot of casteless running around.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 26 mai 2010 - 09:11 .

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
Though I imagine they don't count casteless children as real people.

They don't count any casteless as people. They are effectively nothing. 
I forgot what the Shaper said about the casteless precisely, but he said that the casteless are non-persons or something to that effect.

They aren't in the records, thus they don't exist.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
Though I imagine they don't count casteless children as real people.

They don't count any casteless as people. They are effectively nothing. 
I forgot what the Shaper said about the casteless precisely, but he said that the casteless are non-persons or something to that effect.

That's what I meant, I was just specifying the casteless children. I wonder how that works after Bhelen relaxs the caste system?

[Kryyptehk]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Part of it might be just having fun on the nobles part but they also want to increase the strength of their House (and the population is shrinking) by having a son. It's really more of a risk on the noble hunter's part because if there is a daughter the nolbe can wash his hands of the baby and possibly of her while the mother is either stuck with a child she really can't afford and has to get back into shape to try again or she has to abandon the baby to die.

 
To be completely honest, I'm pretty sure they abandon babies they don't want in the Deep Roads. I wonder how much the population has suffered because of this practice? Though I imagine they don't count casteless children as real people.

They can't always do that, though, as having a casteless child who can't work as a thug and, in recent times, a noble hunter is such a drain on already limited finances that they would pretty much all be unwanted and yet there are quite a lot of casteless running around.

I'm not sure what you mean? Them being a drain on the family is why they would get rid of children that do not rise their status. But when Noble Hunters get older, they may keep a child or two to make them thugs or noble hunters (a la DC's mother)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
Though I imagine they don't count casteless children as real people.

They don't count any casteless as people. They are effectively nothing. 
I forgot what the Shaper said about the casteless precisely, but he said that the casteless are non-persons or something to that effect.

That's what I meant, I was just specifying the casteless children. I wonder how that works after Bhelen relaxs the caste system?

We have a few indications.
Bhelen's crier criticizes Harrowmont for kicking casteless in the street and showing no respect.  Which seems to indicate that Bhelen does believe the casteless ought to be respected or can be respected.

Also, the epilogue says that the casteless get a lot more right (they had none before) after they fight. And that's a huge deal, as before, the casteless were seen as so worthless and they weren't even worthy to bear arms and fight, and thus cannot possibly have any sort of honor. This shows that Bhelen believes or at least grants the Casteless an opportunity to have honor and to fight and die for it. 

In addition, he relaxed Caste restrictions as a whole, though to what extent is never clarified. But that can only be a good thing for the casteless in particular, and to every dwarf in general.  

[Herr Uhl]

Kryyptehk wrote...

That's what I meant, I was just specifying the casteless children. I wonder how that works after Bhelen relaxs the caste system?

I don't think that they will be entered in the records. I thought that he mainly let them fight, there wasn't very much more.

If there is something that I'm missing, point it out. I'm going to go and lay down for a while.

[Sarah1281]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Part of it might be just having fun on the nobles part but they also want to increase the strength of their House (and the population is shrinking) by having a son. It's really more of a risk on the noble hunter's part because if there is a daughter the nolbe can wash his hands of the baby and possibly of her while the mother is either stuck with a child she really can't afford and has to get back into shape to try again or she has to abandon the baby to die.

 
To be completely honest, I'm pretty sure they abandon babies they don't want in the Deep Roads. I wonder how much the population has suffered because of this practice? Though I imagine they don't count casteless children as real people.

They can't always do that, though, as having a casteless child who can't work as a thug and, in recent times, a noble hunter is such a drain on already limited finances that they would pretty much all be unwanted and yet there are quite a lot of casteless running around.

I'm not sure what you mean? Them being a drain on the family is why they would get rid of children that do not rise their status. But when Noble Hunters get older, they may keep a child or two to make them thugs or noble hunters (a la DC's mother)

 Are you' suggesting that all casteless would do this or just noble hunters? And I highly doubt that the DC mother was a noble hunter if only because it would be less scandalous if this were a time-honored tradition and not something that just started happening a few years ago.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
Though I imagine they don't count casteless children as real people.

They don't count any casteless as people. They are effectively nothing. 
I forgot what the Shaper said about the casteless precisely, but he said that the casteless are non-persons or something to that effect.

That's what I meant, I was just specifying the casteless children. I wonder how that works after Bhelen relaxs the caste system?

We have a few indications.
Bhelen's crier criticizes Harrowmont for kicking casteless in the street and showing no respect.  Which seems to indicate that Bhelen does believe the casteless ought to be respected or can be respected.

Also, the epilogue says that the casteless get a lot more right (they had none before) after they fight. And that's a huge deal, as before, the casteless were seen as so worthless and they weren't even worthy to bear arms and fight, and thus cannot possibly have any sort of honor. This shows that Bhelen believes or at least grants the Casteless an opportunity to have honor and to fight and die for it. 

In addition, he relaxed Caste restrictions as a whole, though to what extent is never clarified. But that can only be a good thing for the casteless in particular, and to every dwarf in general.  

I wonder if they start recording the casteless or just the ones that fight for the army...for that matter, would Rica be recorded in the Memories, since she is the mother of the King's son and because she is technically a noble?

[soignee]

How new is Noble Hunting? I#m poking the codexes and it says nothing. All I have found is this:

Even so, there is some hope for the casteless, a dangling rope that offers a way up into greater Orzammar society. Since a dwarf's caste is determined by the parent of the same sex, the male child of a nobleman is part of that noble's house and caste. Strangely, it is acceptable for casteless women to train in the arts of courtly romance to woo nobles and warriors; they are known as "noble hunters." Any male born from such a union is considered a joyous event, considering the low rate of dwarven fertility. The mother and entire family are then taken in by the father's house, although they retain their caste.

[Herr Uhl]

Kryyptehk wrote...

I wonder if they start recording the casteless or just the ones that fight for the army...for that matter, would Rica be recorded in the Memories, since she is the mother of the King's son and because she is technically a noble?

She isn't a noble.

[Kryyptehk]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Part of it might be just having fun on the nobles part but they also want to increase the strength of their House (and the population is shrinking) by having a son. It's really more of a risk on the noble hunter's part because if there is a daughter the nolbe can wash his hands of the baby and possibly of her while the mother is either stuck with a child she really can't afford and has to get back into shape to try again or she has to abandon the baby to die.

 
To be completely honest, I'm pretty sure they abandon babies they don't want in the Deep Roads. I wonder how much the population has suffered because of this practice? Though I imagine they don't count casteless children as real people.

They can't always do that, though, as having a casteless child who can't work as a thug and, in recent times, a noble hunter is such a drain on already limited finances that they would pretty much all be unwanted and yet there are quite a lot of casteless running around.

I'm not sure what you mean? Them being a drain on the family is why they would get rid of children that do not rise their status. But when Noble Hunters get older, they may keep a child or two to make them thugs or noble hunters (a la DC's mother)

 Are you' suggesting that all casteless would do this or just noble hunters? And I highly doubt that the DC mother was a noble hunter if only because it would be less scandalous if this were a time-honored tradition and not something that just started happening a few years ago.

I'm not saying all of them do, but I'm assuming that a lot of women might. But we know that some don't, like Jarvia and FDC, but they are thugs. Some women might become noble hunters to help her family, like Rica, especially if they had other children.

[Kryyptehk]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

I wonder if they start recording the casteless or just the ones that fight for the army...for that matter, would Rica be recorded in the Memories, since she is the mother of the King's son and because she is technically a noble?

She isn't a noble.

Don't they raise in castes if they have the son of another noble? Isn't that the whole point of noble hunting and the reason Beraht trained her to be one?

[Kryyptehk]

soignee wrote...

How new is Noble Hunting? I#m poking the codexes and it says nothing. All I have found is this:

Even so, there is some hope for the casteless, a dangling rope that offers a way up into greater Orzammar society. Since a dwarf's caste is determined by the parent of the same sex, the male child of a nobleman is part of that noble's house and caste. Strangely, it is acceptable for casteless women to train in the arts of courtly romance to woo nobles and warriors; they are known as "noble hunters." Any male born from such a union is considered a joyous event, considering the low rate of dwarven fertility. The mother and entire family are then taken in by the father's house, although they retain their caste.

I assumed it was an older tradition, but it may be new. That is what I am assuming with my theories.

[Herr Uhl]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

I wonder if they start recording the casteless or just the ones that fight for the army...for that matter, would Rica be recorded in the Memories, since she is the mother of the King's son and because she is technically a noble?

She isn't a noble.

Don't they raise in castes if they have the son of another noble? Isn't that the whole point of noble hunting and the reason Beraht trained her to be one?

The point is that they are accepted to be around the nobles. And the nobles provide for them. Money that is given to Behrat as compensation.

If a duster becomes a paragon, his/her family would become nobles.

Edit: Well, the money and the goodwill of a noble house.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 26 mai 2010 - 09:31 .