11146 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As I repeat myself. Rebuilding is not something that can occur as long as you have a permanent threat out there randomly attacking you.

Oh? How do you think civilization was developed in the first place?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

But maybe it's too different for a Tiberium analogy to be pertinent.

In the Tiberium Universe we have the mutants who are as intelligent as regular humans, however in Fallout we do have the Ghouls who SOME are also as intelligent while most of them are mindless, same goes for the Mutants.

Kane dislikes mutants, and sees them as "half-evolved". The middle ground between carbon based humans and tiberium based humans, which is apparently his goal. 

He did managed to create perfect tiberium based humans in his "divination project", which is superior to normal humans in every way. That plus Tiberium has been succesful harnessed by the Brotherhood of Nod  to enhances its soldiers. 

But yea this scenario seems to be different. In the Tiberium universe, you have someone like Kane and his knowledge about the Tacitus that can make it possible. Apparently the same cannot be said in Fallout.  

[Giggles_Manically]

Fawkes is an intelligent Mutant showing that they are capable of understanding and being peaceful. While many ghouls are zombies, many others are intelligent and care for others and show empathy. Life comes in many shapes and forms, and we with are limited understanding have no right eradicate what we dont like.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Giggles. I assume you didn't kill the Architect in Awakening then?

[Costin_Razvan]

Oh? How do you think civilization was developed in the first place?

Civilization was built by Rival Nations trying to come out on top. When one of them conquered the other they didn't slaughter and kill everyone, they learned and they used what knowledge the conquered ones had. Even Ghenkis Khan who slaughtered millions displayed a big interest in academic studies.

But the Mutants and Ghouls just kill everyone, it isn't a valid comparison.

 Life comes in many shapes and forms, and we with are limited understanding have no right eradicate what we dont like.

Again this is isn't about life or mercy. This is about humanity rebuilding it's civilization and nature blooming again. If you want to argue over that they can do that with the mutants and ghouls around then please go ahead, but please leave whatever thought you have about the morality of it.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 09 juin 2010 - 05:40 .

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Giggles. I assume you didn't kill the Architect in Awakening then?

Nope sorry that arrogant bugger bit it, while I did feel for him and his cause what he proposed was not going to help. Besides he also had a plan to massacare most people and taint the rest to stop blights. So no while I do believe in being compassionate and helpful that twerp was introduced to Fireball.

[tmp7704]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Civilization was built by Rival Nations trying to come out on top. When of them conquered the other they didn't slaughter and kill everyone, they learned and they used what knowledge the conquered ones had. Even Ghenkis Khan who slaughtered millions displayed a big interest in academic studies.

But the Mutants and Ghouls just kill everyone, it isn't a valid comparison.

It's quite valid -- the ones who built the civilizations did that by surviving against constant, random threats from both neighbours and wild animals. So to say this cannot be done as long as these threats exist is silly, it has been done. The research aspect is reduced in rebuilding because you don't exactly need to wait hundreds of years for someone to invent the wheel or the gunpowder. Nor you need to conquer your neighbours for it.

[Costin_Razvan]

Tmp, add to Animals and Hostile Neighbours, random attacks by Frankensteins and Zombies and an irradiated land that isn't going to heal just because the rains will have pure water instead of water that kills radiation.

Nor you need to conquer your neighbours for it.

You think so? The biggest government in the USA is the North California Republic, however their technology is sorely lacking while the Brotherhood of Steel is hoarding technology they don't want to share.

They have already waged war over this and they will wage war again.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 09 juin 2010 - 06:02 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tmp, add to Animals and Hostile Neighbours, random attacks by Frankensteins and Zombies and an irradiated land that isn't going to heal just because the rains will have pure water instead of water that kills radiation.

Nor you need to conquer your neighbours for it.

You think so? The biggest government in the USA is the North California Republic, however their technology is sorely lacking while the Brotherhood of Steel is hoarding technology they don't want to share.

They have already waged war over this and they will wage war again.

Humanity has survived some serious nasty things, and will continue to survive. Besides just apply the Lone Wanderer to your problem and it solves itself. The book you write with Moria may be the first step to recovery. Besides unlike you Costin I happen to have a problem with Mass GENOCIDE.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Besides unlike you Costin I happen to have a problem with Mass GENOCIDE.

Can you qualify the killing of mindless zombies as a genocide? They are not even a people.

However, if there is a possibility of smart mutants, then it could be seen as a genocide, yes.
Which doesn't automatically make it horrendous, there are many theories of ******-erectus being, at least indirectly, wiped out by ******-sapiens, which is us (there came a time where they both co-existed, before ******-erectus compeltely disapeared).

[Costin_Razvan]

Again, mere survival isn't what is at stake here Giggles.



I do not consider it Genocide to kill the Ghouls and Mutants, the vast majority of which are mindless with only a few having a brain.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Besides unlike you Costin I happen to have a problem with Mass GENOCIDE.

Can you qualify the killing of mindless zombies as a genocide? They are not even a people.

However, if there is a possibility of smart mutants, then it could be seen as a genocide, yes.
Which doesn't automatically make it horrendous, there are many theories of ******-erectus being, at least indirectly, wiped out by ******-sapiens, which is us (there came a time where they both co-existed, before ******-erectus compeltely disapeared).

The modified FEV virus kills any living thing with even the slightest mutation or irradtiation. The ending slide shows whole towns dying of it. Eden only wanted to use the virus to clear the way for pure humanity to take over. Also did i mention he is a giant evil crazy COMPUTER.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Besides unlike you Costin I happen to have a problem with Mass GENOCIDE.

Can you qualify the killing of mindless zombies as a genocide? They are not even a people.

However, if there is a possibility of smart mutants, then it could be seen as a genocide, yes.
Which doesn't automatically make it horrendous, there are many theories of ******-erectus being, at least indirectly, wiped out by ******-sapiens, which is us (there came a time where they both co-existed, before ******-erectus compeltely disapeared).

KoP, I really hope you aren't saying that it's fine to slaughter things en mass because they aren't human. Especially when the Ghouls used to be human and are sentient.

[Daryn Mercio]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

That's what I say! Isn't Piotin red-headed as well?

He is bald, and without a beard I think. So no one knows for sure

[Daryn Mercio]

I think it is fine to slaughter the ghouls. Almost all of the ones I've seen are insane and attack anybody except other ghouls. Charon and the dozen or so in the Underworld are the only true friendly ones in FO3. The ones that try to get into the Tenpenny tower are not friendly, they just seek to use you to take over the tower, which of course, I just kill them all

[Costin_Razvan]

Ferals ghouls are sapient?! Cause they certainly outnumber the sapient ones. Now on to the subject of Genocide. In this case I don't have a qualm against it....considering the long term benefits in THIS scenario.

Genocide, so far in human history, has been used as tool for short term goals. ( Slaughter a town so the next towns you want to conquer just surrender, kill the Ukranians so they stop their protests etc. ). However in Fallout 3 there is a real long term benefit -scouring the planet of Radiation-.

I would also find it laughable to think that humans wouldn't be able to find a way to save themselves from the purified water. Mutants and Ghouls wouldn't be so lucky, I am sure of it, but humans? Lets be reasonable. Certainly many would die, but a cure would be found eventually. If anything it would be a hell of an incentive to find a cure for radiation on humans living in the wastes.

When it all ends, humanity would stand stronger then before but with no mutants, ghouls or mutated animals to impede their progress.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 09 juin 2010 - 06:25 .

[Kryyptehk]

I wasn't talking about the Feral Ghouls (obviously, since I just said Ghouls). But how can you justify wanton slaughter of a race because it strengthens the power of another race?

[Daryn Mercio]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Fawkes is an intelligent Mutant showing that they are capable of understanding and being peaceful. While many ghouls are zombies, many others are intelligent and care for others and show empathy. Life comes in many shapes and forms, and we with are limited understanding have no right eradicate what we dont like.

Fawkes is the only friendly supermutant in FO3, but I'd hardly call him peaceful. He still fights with insane ferocity.
Ghouls and Supermutants are not products of nature giving life, they are products of man by use of unnatural exposition to radiation.
anyways, may I ask how this thread got turned from a "dwarwen Master Race" thread into a thread comparing the valuability of life in futuristic games?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kryyptehk wrote...
KoP, I really hope you aren't saying that it's fine to slaughter things en mass because they aren't human. Especially when the Ghouls used to be human and are sentient.

A genocide means the killing of a people, aka a community, ethnic group, religious group, language group..etc etc.

The mass murder of animals is not a genocide. That of course does not mean I am with it or that I find it fine.

However, mindless zombies and mutants who present a threat to humanity? I wouldn't mind erasing them. The fact that they were sentient is irrlevent, as they lost it and are as good as dead.

[Giggles_Manically]

Daryn Mercio wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Fawkes is an intelligent Mutant showing that they are capable of understanding and being peaceful. While many ghouls are zombies, many others are intelligent and care for others and show empathy. Life comes in many shapes and forms, and we with are limited understanding have no right eradicate what we dont like.

Fawkes is the only friendly supermutant in FO3, but I'd hardly call him peaceful. He still fights with insane ferocity.
Ghouls and Supermutants are not products of nature giving life, they are products of man by use of unnatural exposition to radiation.
anyways, may I ask how this thread got turned from a "dwarwen Master Race" thread into a thread comparing the valuability of life in futuristic games?

No there is another one you can meet while randomly traveling who is friendly, Uncle Moe I believe. And if you look at footage from Fallout NEw Vegaes there are ones who talk to you. 

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
KoP, I really hope you aren't saying that it's fine to slaughter things en mass because they aren't human. Especially when the Ghouls used to be human and are sentient.

A genocide means the killing of a people, aka a community, ethnic group, religious group, language group..etc etc.

The mass murder of animals is not a genocide. That of course does not mean I am with it or that I find it fine.

However, mindless zombies and mutants who present a threat to humanity? I wouldn't mind erasing them. The fact that they were sentient is irrlevent, as they lost it and are as good as dead.

It is genocide since you are killing any human being who is irradiated or slightly mutated as well in the Greater DC area. This in short fits the UN definition of Genocide, and you are once again doing it at the behest of the evil computer.

[Kryyptehk]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...
KoP, I really hope you aren't saying that it's fine to slaughter things en mass because they aren't human. Especially when the Ghouls used to be human and are sentient.

A genocide means the killing of a people, aka a community, ethnic group, religious group, language group..etc etc.

The mass murder of animals is not a genocide. That of course does not mean I am with it or that I find it fine.

However, mindless zombies and mutants who present a threat to humanity? I wouldn't mind erasing them. The fact that they were sentient is irrlevent, as they lost it and are as good as dead.

But what of the Ghouls who are not mindless? Like Charson? They would die with the rest of the Feral Ghouls. I can't justify the slaughter of a peaceful, sentient race just because their genetic brother are a threat.

[tmp7704]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tmp, add to Animals and Hostile Neighbours, random attacks by Frankensteins and Zombies and an irradiated land that isn't going to heal just because the rains will have pure water instead of water that kills radiation.

Sure, but the zombies are just another hostile neighbour. And unlike in computer game they don't respawn after you shoot them dead, just like these other neighbours. And their presence or lack thereof isn't going to make difference to the land itself.

You are also ignoring that aside from hositle irradiated creatures there's also ones who are perfectly willing to co-exist and even help against the common threat. By killing all of them off indiscriminately you may be just as well damaging your odds of survival rather than helping them.

You think so? The biggest government in the USA is the North California Republic, however their technology is sorely lacking while the Brotherhood of Steel is hoarding technology they don't want to share.

They have already waged war over this and they will wage war again.

The war was sparked by idiot in BoS ranks who didn't like the idea of technology being in hands of anyone but his own organization. But this sort of conflict can happen in a computer game or other make-believe medium, because only there it's possible to conveniently hand-wave that you cannot really take away the underlying concepts which define the technology, once these concepts are known.

As for sorely lacking in technology... yeah, the BoS keeps hold on nice toys like lasers, power armour or combat implants. (they do trade 'lesser' technology) So few others have these gadgets. But you know, we don't really have such gadgets, either. If NCR can "just" attain the technological level of our earth from 20-21st century, that may be pretty good standard for the population at large.

Modifié par tmp7704, 09 juin 2010 - 06:42 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Peaceful? "Snorts" The ghouls are anything but peaceful, even the smart ones, and Giggles I have answered your idea that all humans in any way irradiated would die. If humans can build this virus they sure as hell can find a cure for it.

I am not denying people would die, and with luck all the ghouls the mutants would. However the real effect is that it would cleanse nature of radiation, not kill people ( despite what Eden might claim ). I find it incredibly stupid to assume people would just continue drinking the water.

 By killing all of them off indiscriminately you may be just as well damaging your odds of survival rather than helping them.

Perhaps you might be missing the point that those guys emit radiation? ( Or so I am led to believe ). Radiation mostly kills people rather then mutating them, and there is also the fact that Ghouls and Mutants could turn into their mindless forms at any time.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 09 juin 2010 - 06:46 .

[tmp7704]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If humans can build this virus they sure as hell can find a cure for it.

Not if they are dead because you know, the virus has killed them off. And there is no mention of pre-made vaccine so that doesn't appear to exist.