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[RavenousBear]

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...

[quote]Caak7i wrote...

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...
[/quote] There's always the 'I'll keep an eye on him' option which makes it clear that you won't balk at killing him but makes it so Trian is already dead when you show up. I think that option covers a few scenarios: not convinced by Bhelen's rumor, don't want to let more people than necessary know you want to kill Trian, one day is too short notice to have a fool-proof plan...
[/quote]

I "thought" that also led to Trian showing up, how wrong I am again  [/quote] The way I see it, Bhelen has spent a few days/weeks before the origin slowly convincing Trian that you're out to kill him without being too obvious about it. In turn, Trian starts acting more and more hostile towards you but doesn't want you to know that he's on to you and so doesn't mention it. Then, the night before Trian's death (which Bhelen carefully has planned out for the two scouts with you to be on his payroll, the mercenaries to show up, and has an alibi by being with the main group) he tries to convince you that Trian is out to kill you and uses his recent behavior to back his story up.

Trian is easier to convince, I would think, because if Trian dies then you're automatically the heir and you're popular enough that you could very well replace him anyway. If you say that without a doubt you're going to kill Trian then Bhelen instructs the mercenaries to just attack you to further your belief that Trian is out to get you by stealing Trian's ring and giving it to the mercenaries who he fully expects to die at your hand. Just the same, should you change your mind he has the scout to force your hand by refusing to let you surrender. Should you be killed by the mercenaries, though, Trian would be a likely suspect, the mercenaries can go kill Trian later (they may have been instructed to deal with you first), or Bhelen could have him otherwise assassinated although it wouldn't be as perfect a situation as what happened.

If you say that you won't kill him, won't hear Bhelen out, or otherwise imply that you're not going to make the first move then even if Trian attacks you then you may surrender or you may talk him down and had you had the common sense to kill that stupid scout it may have worked. However unlikely that was it was still a possibility so what he does is order the mercenaries to kill Trian and his men. You are, of course, a more skilled fighter than Trian so when you come across those same mercenaries you are able to kill them and take back Train's ring which points to your guilt. But even had you fallen to the mercs then Bhelen would still be the only prince left and the default heir.

[/quote]

Great execution (no pun intended), however he made one mistake: my PC is still alive.  He will give him a chance to plead his case, however the Anvil is mighty tempting as a personal WMD.

[Sarah1281]

Caak7i wrote...

Great execution (no pun intended), however he made one mistake: my PC is still alive. He will give him a chance to plead his case, however the Anvil is mighty tempting as a personal WMD.

That was his (potentially) fatal mistake: not anticipating that the GW would be still in the Deep Roads when he was so eager to get you thrown out of Orzammar. He'd be safest having a 'distraught Trian fanatic' murder you in your cell but that might cast suspicion on him and he hates you enough he'd rather you die in the Deep Roads. Still, if you were anyone else but a GW then it's not likel you would have been able to even reenter Orzammar so it's one of those one-in-a-million things he couldn't have planned for.

[RavenousBear]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...
Great execution (no pun intended), however he made one mistake: my PC is still alive. He will give him a chance to plead his case, however the Anvil is mighty tempting as a personal WMD.

That was his (potentially) fatal mistake: not anticipating that the GW would be still in the Deep Roads when he was so eager to get you thrown out of Orzammar. He'd be safest having a 'distraught Trian fanatic' murder you in your cell but that might cast suspicion on him and he hates you enough he'd rather you die in the Deep Roads. Still, if you were anyone else but a GW then it's not likel you would have been able to even reenter Orzammar so it's one of those one-in-a-million things he couldn't have planned for.

Maybe instead of having an assassin in the jail cell, perhaps have one (or a dozen for guaranteed death) assassins at the deep roads section where the DN gets exiled. If Bhelen can bribe half the assembly to immediately send you to exile, hire mercenaries that can quickly turn on Trian if the DN goes one way or the other, he should have connections with certain people who control access to the deep roads.

Of course then that section of the roads is filled with darkspawn, spiders, and deep stalkers, which is why you send a team in there so they can handle the monsters and the DN who has no armor and below average weapons.

[Sarah1281]

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...
Great execution (no pun intended), however he made one mistake: my PC is still alive. He will give him a chance to plead his case, however the Anvil is mighty tempting as a personal WMD.

That was his (potentially) fatal mistake: not anticipating that the GW would be still in the Deep Roads when he was so eager to get you thrown out of Orzammar. He'd be safest having a 'distraught Trian fanatic' murder you in your cell but that might cast suspicion on him and he hates you enough he'd rather you die in the Deep Roads. Still, if you were anyone else but a GW then it's not likel you would have been able to even reenter Orzammar so it's one of those one-in-a-million things he couldn't have planned for.

Maybe instead of having an assassin in the jail cell, perhaps have one (or a dozen for guaranteed death) assassins at the deep roads section where the DN gets exiled. If Bhelen can bribe half the assembly to immediately send you to exile, hire mercenaries that can quickly turn on Trian if the DN goes one way or the other, he should have connections with certain people who control access to the deep roads.

Of course then that section of the roads is filled with darkspawn, spiders, and deep stalkers, which is why you send a team in there so they can handle the monsters and the DN who has no armor and below average weapons.

If only Bhelen had put more thought into his scheme...

[RavenousBear]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...
Great execution (no pun intended), however he made one mistake: my PC is still alive. He will give him a chance to plead his case, however the Anvil is mighty tempting as a personal WMD.

That was his (potentially) fatal mistake: not anticipating that the GW would be still in the Deep Roads when he was so eager to get you thrown out of Orzammar. He'd be safest having a 'distraught Trian fanatic' murder you in your cell but that might cast suspicion on him and he hates you enough he'd rather you die in the Deep Roads. Still, if you were anyone else but a GW then it's not likel you would have been able to even reenter Orzammar so it's one of those one-in-a-million things he couldn't have planned for.

Maybe instead of having an assassin in the jail cell, perhaps have one (or a dozen for guaranteed death) assassins at the deep roads section where the DN gets exiled. If Bhelen can bribe half the assembly to immediately send you to exile, hire mercenaries that can quickly turn on Trian if the DN goes one way or the other, he should have connections with certain people who control access to the deep roads.

Of course then that section of the roads is filled with darkspawn, spiders, and deep stalkers, which is why you send a team in there so they can handle the monsters and the DN who has no armor and below average weapons.

If only Bhelen had put more thought into his scheme...

He is still young; he has plenty of time to enhance his scheming skills, if I decide to let him live of course. Like they say, Rome was not built in a day.

[Sarah1281]

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
If only Bhelen had put more thought into his scheme...

He is still young; he has plenty of time to enhance his scheming skills, if I decide to let him live of course. Like they say, Rome was not built in a day.

Still, it was a good first try.

[RavenousBear]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
If only Bhelen had put more thought into his scheme...

He is still young; he has plenty of time to enhance his scheming skills, if I decide to let him live of course. Like they say, Rome was not built in a day.

Still, it was a good first try.

It is all Duncan's fault; that runt always seems to sabotage everyone's plans of killing the PCs.

[Sarah1281]

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
If only Bhelen had put more thought into his scheme...

He is still young; he has plenty of time to enhance his scheming skills, if I decide to let him live of course. Like they say, Rome was not built in a day.

Still, it was a good first try.

It is all Duncan's fault; that runt always seems to sabotage everyone's plans of killing the PCs.

In my fic I'm probably going to be morally obligated to have my DN congratulate Bhelen on his first attempt and then give him helpful pointers. I mean, it's the sisterly thing to do, right? 

[RavenousBear]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
If only Bhelen had put more thought into his scheme...

He is still young; he has plenty of time to enhance his scheming skills, if I decide to let him live of course. Like they say, Rome was not built in a day.

Still, it was a good first try.

It is all Duncan's fault; that runt always seems to sabotage everyone's plans of killing the PCs.

In my fic I'm probably going to be morally obligated to have my DN congratulate Bhelen on his first attempt and then give him helpful pointers. I mean, it's the sisterly thing to do, right? 

You know Bhelen would seize the opportunity. However, have a backup plan in case things turn sour quickly, like a certain assassin.

[Sarah1281]

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
If only Bhelen had put more thought into his scheme...

He is still young; he has plenty of time to enhance his scheming skills, if I decide to let him live of course. Like they say, Rome was not built in a day.

Still, it was a good first try.

It is all Duncan's fault; that runt always seems to sabotage everyone's plans of killing the PCs.

In my fic I'm probably going to be morally obligated to have my DN congratulate Bhelen on his first attempt and then give him helpful pointers. I mean, it's the sisterly thing to do, right? 

You know Bhelen would seize the opportunity. However, have a backup plan in case things turn sour quickly, like a certain assassin.

"See, that was another good try, little brother. But your big mistake was..."

[RavenousBear]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
If only Bhelen had put more thought into his scheme...

He is still young; he has plenty of time to enhance his scheming skills, if I decide to let him live of course. Like they say, Rome was not built in a day.

Still, it was a good first try.

It is all Duncan's fault; that runt always seems to sabotage everyone's plans of killing the PCs.

In my fic I'm probably going to be morally obligated to have my DN congratulate Bhelen on his first attempt and then give him helpful pointers. I mean, it's the sisterly thing to do, right? 

You know Bhelen would seize the opportunity. However, have a backup plan in case things turn sour quickly, like a certain assassin.

"See, that was another good try, little brother. But your big mistake was..."

*Blade pierces through Bhelen's chest, puncturing his heart*

[Sarah1281]

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
If only Bhelen had put more thought into his scheme...

He is still young; he has plenty of time to enhance his scheming skills, if I decide to let him live of course. Like they say, Rome was not built in a day.

Still, it was a good first try.

It is all Duncan's fault; that runt always seems to sabotage everyone's plans of killing the PCs.

In my fic I'm probably going to be morally obligated to have my DN congratulate Bhelen on his first attempt and then give him helpful pointers. I mean, it's the sisterly thing to do, right? 

You know Bhelen would seize the opportunity. However, have a backup plan in case things turn sour quickly, like a certain assassin.

"See, that was another good try, little brother. But your big mistake was..."

*Blade pierces through Bhelen's chest, puncturing his heart*

That would probably be after his third attempt after Harrowmont takes the crown (because if he doesn't Bhelen doesn't die) because at some point no matter how prodigious he might be the continued failures just get embarrassing.

[RavenousBear]

*Puts a Band-Aid over Bhelen's wound*

[Sarah1281]

Caak7i wrote...

*Puts a Band-Aid over Bhelen's wound*

Lol, I'm sure he'll appreciate the gesture as he bleeds out.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Did Bhelen perhaps hope for the DN to actually survive and just go to the surface, where he can't bother him? Being a kinslayer, exile and surfacer would make it impossible for anyone to be an actualy threat, unless the Wardens are added to the equation.

I know this sounds farfetched. But maybe Bhelen thought if you could escape with your life in the deep roads, then you deserve to survive. Of course the flaw is failing to anticipate the Wardens being there and the possibility of the DN meeting up with them.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juin 2010 - 03:48 .

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Did Bhelen perhaps hope for the DN to actually survive and just go to the surface, where he can't bother him? Being a kinslayer, exile and surfacer would make it impossible for anyone to be an actualy threat, unless the Wardens are added to the equation.

I know this sounds farfetched. But maybe Bhelen thought if you could escape with your life in the deep roads, then you deserve to survive. Of course the flaw is failing to anticipate the Wardens being there and the possibility of the DN meeting up with them.

Maybe if he thought you would be worse off on the Surface than dying (like someone said they were planning on having Bhelen do to Harrowmont) but his first conversation with you and to a lesser extent his second once you return to Orzammar have convinced me that he really hates you.

[RavenousBear]

Even if the DN found Duncan, how could Bhelen predict that the DN would eventually take command of the Ferelden GWs (all two of them of course) and take the responsibility of gathering the armies against the Blight? Your character is a raw recruit with little experience in dealing with darkspawn so there is no way you can fault Bhelen for not seeing that happen in the future.

[Sarah1281]

Caak7i wrote...

Even if the DN found Duncan, how could Bhelen predict that the DN would eventually take command of the Ferelden GWs (all two of them of course) and take the responsibility of gathering the armies against the Blight? Your character is a raw recruit with little experience in dealing with darkspawn so there is no way you can fault Bhelen for not seeing that happen in the future.

Xanatos would have seen it coming.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Did Bhelen perhaps hope for the DN to actually survive and just go to the surface, where he can't bother him? Being a kinslayer, exile and surfacer would make it impossible for anyone to be an actualy threat, unless the Wardens are added to the equation.

I know this sounds farfetched. But maybe Bhelen thought if you could escape with your life in the deep roads, then you deserve to survive. Of course the flaw is failing to anticipate the Wardens being there and the possibility of the DN meeting up with them.

Maybe if he thought you would be worse off on the Surface than dying (like someone said they were planning on having Bhelen do to Harrowmont) but his first conversation with you and to a lesser extent his second once you return to Orzammar have convinced me that he really hates you.

I don't think he does, but that's open to interpretation. I just think he loves himself more than others, but I don't think he actually hated his siblings. Definately resented the fact that Endrin loved them more than him. But if you play the DN and be kind to Bhelen, you see him telling you :"You've always been there for me". Now, he could be boot licking at that moment, but I doubt he was lying. If that's the case, then I don't think he hates the DN (maybe he hates Trian).

As for the encounter on Orzammar, I personally interpretted this as him being angry at a potential failure, and to also provoke the DN into revealing his / her true loyalties because it's really suspicious for the DN to just come back and say "Hey bro, I am with you". Especially considering Harrowmont being close to you.

And at the end, his restoring you to House Aeducan, without you asking him, is I believe a sign of affection and respect.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Did Bhelen perhaps hope for the DN to actually survive and just go to the surface, where he can't bother him? Being a kinslayer, exile and surfacer would make it impossible for anyone to be an actualy threat, unless the Wardens are added to the equation.

I know this sounds farfetched. But maybe Bhelen thought if you could escape with your life in the deep roads, then you deserve to survive. Of course the flaw is failing to anticipate the Wardens being there and the possibility of the DN meeting up with them.

Maybe if he thought you would be worse off on the Surface than dying (like someone said they were planning on having Bhelen do to Harrowmont) but his first conversation with you and to a lesser extent his second once you return to Orzammar have convinced me that he really hates you.

I don't think he does, but that's open to interpretation. I just think he loves himself more than others, but I don't think he actually hated his siblings. Definately resented the fact that Endrin loved them more than him. But if you play the DN and be kind to Bhelen, you see him telling you :"You've always been there for me". Now, he could be boot licking at that moment, but I doubt he was lying. If that's the case, then I don't think he hates the DN (maybe he hates Trian).

As for the encounter on Orzammar, I personally interpretted this as him being angry at a potential failure, and to also provoke the DN into revealing his / her true loyalties because it's really suspicious for the DN to just come back and say "Hey bro, I am with you". Especially considering Harrowmont being close to you.

And at the end, his restoring you to House Aeducan, without you asking him, is I believe a sign of affection and respect.

I suppose I could see that. His 'you've always been there for me' line is when you ask if he'll back you up if you move against Trian so he's trying to make it sound convincing and thus I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in it. Of course, if that is what Bhelen's trying to do then it can really backfire horribly.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
I suppose I could see that. His 'you've always been there for me' line is when you ask if he'll back you up if you move against Trian so he's trying to make it sound convincing and thus I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in it. Of course, if that is what Bhelen's trying to do then it can really backfire horribly.

I doubt Bhelen would say that to the DN if he was a complete jerk to him. That's way too suspicious.
If I was a dick to my brother and him suddenly saying that I've always been there for him while discussing a plot, I would be very suspicious.
 
I know he's trying to manipulate you in this instance. But I do not hink it was based on a lie or came out of nowhere.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 juin 2010 - 04:10 .

[RavenousBear]

Before I go to bed, I do not remember seeing any lines in the DN noble origin which you could actually belittle or treat Bhelen like a casteless thug. On the other hand, there were opportunities to ask Bhelen how he was holding up with being stuck with Trian all day and asking for his help during the Diamond Quarter conversion between you and Trian.



If there were no opportunities to harass Bhelen, it may have been intentional by Bioware to make his backstab more personal and shocking to the DN. Then again my memory is fuzzy and it is time for bed, so my brain is shutting down...

[Sarah1281]

You know, I think you're right. The most you can do is drag Bhelen into your arguments with Trian which I'm sure he doesn't appreciate and refuse to hear him out after he says Trian wants to kill you.

[Sarah1281]

So I was reading a DN fanfic the other day and one part of it had Alsitair asking if she was actually guilty of killing Trian. She admitted it and Alistair, naturally, freaked out and was all 'Oh, you how could you possibly do that? You don't just go around killing your siblings! That's horrible!' Admittedly, this is very naive of Alistair but at this point he's never been to Orzammar and doesn't understand dwarven nobility. What got to me was that LA's response was 'Goldanna was your sister. Look at how well that went!' and then Alistair instantly realized that she was right and he was wrong.

That was a huge WTF moment for me. Alistair's half-sister who he's never met and who has long believed him dead is not eager to see him but wants the money having a rich relation could get her is supposed to be on the same level as LA killing her brother that she's grown up with? Does anyone here see this as a valid comparison? And if so could they please explain it to me?

 I mean, to me that's like Branka telling someone else who is married that she abandoned her husband and led their entire House to their deaths in the Deep Roads and was willing to feed them to darkspawn/allow them to become broodmothers so she could find the Anvil and them reacting with horror. Branka then snorts and says 'Oh, like you're one to talk. You never sleep with your husband!' and then the second woman instatnly realizes that Branka has a point.

Does. Not. Compute.

[Costin_Razvan]

The writer's point was that families do not always get along, I think. Care to share this fiction?