11146 réponses à ce sujet

[MKDAWUSS]

Lady Jess wrote...

From This...


To sweet sweet vengeance...

That HAS to make that entire questline all the more special - you don't get that value with any other origin. The Howe-Cousland SL is comparable IMO.

[Costin_Razvan]

Yes, killing your brother and dooming your entire race for a few more years out of your selfish desire for revenge is certainly awesome.



"Pukes"

[tmp7704]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Yes, killing your brother and dooming your entire race for a few more years out of your selfish desire for revenge is certainly awesome.

"Pukes"

Well, that's the dwarves for you.

edit: although it's hardly fair to put the blame on character for not having the metagaming knowledge how that particular choice would maybe turn out X years down the road. From their point of view the whole mess originates from Bhelen's "selfish desire to rule" after all. And he was the first to start messing with his own family.

Modifié par tmp7704, 29 juin 2010 - 02:25 .

[Sarah1281]

Caak7i wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Well, what gets me is he does so quickly without giving you a fair chance of proving yourself innocent; he takes the word of that rat Frandlin. Then of course his oldest son is lying in a pool of blood so I have no idea what is going on in his head.

As a middle child myself, I do somewhat understand the rivalry system a bit. However, I felt I was treated more like Trian or Bhelen than the DN. The oldest seems to be the "favorite".

I'm the oldest and that's certainly how it worked out. By the time my littlest brother came along (he's nine years younger than me) my parents just seemed to lose interest. I was so much more innocent at his age then he is now since they always made sure to coddle me.

What gets to me is if you side with Bhelen and fight in the Proving anyway you meet that guy from House Vollney who was also accused of killing his brother about a decade ago. You know what he did? He won a Proving and was declared innocent.

What

The

Hell?

I think my little brother is being treated  better than I was though he is 6 yrs younger. He is much happier by a longshot than I was at his age. I think being a year and half younger than my sister who is a genius kind of soured my future. She was the dominant one for a long time.

Are you talking about the fighter next to Wojech Ivo? Because if someone from the same house as Bruntin can get away with it, how the **** does the DN not the same opportunity? Rotten nobles.

Everyone thinks the guy did it (and yes, it's the guy standing next to Wojech) but he's officially innocent. That's part of why Bhelen was so quick to exile you: he was worried you could win the Proving.

Yes, killing your brother and dooming your entire race for a few more years out of your selfish desire for revenge is certainly awesome.

At least she's going back to Orzammar at the end to try and...oh, wait. Never mind. That's a chancellor game, isn't it? 

[RavenousBear]

Doom the entire race? Are you basing this on the Epilogue cards? I think the serious issue with the dwarves is the low birth rate, which no one currently can solve so I think the dwarves are in trouble no matter who is King.

[Costin_Razvan]

I base it on what the game presents us. I could hardly care about speculations and other things.

[soignee]

tmp7704 wrote...



edit: although it's hardly fair to put the blame on character for not having the metagaming knowledge how that particular choice would maybe turn out X years down the road. From their point of view the whole mess originates from Bhelen's "selfish desire to rule" after all. And he was the first to start messing with his own family.

This. Metaaaaaa gaminggggg like woah. It's why I loathe it when lawfully good types side with Bhelen. MAKESNOSENSE.

My Aeducan gutted Bhelen, shoved Anora on the throne and played political go-between. ....To a point.

[Sarah1281]

Saying Harrowmont's dooming the race is just an exaggeration: if the dwarven race is doomed without Bhelen's intervention then it can hardly all be pinned on Harrowmont.

[Lady Jess]

tmp7704 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Yes, killing your brother and dooming your entire race for a few more years out of your selfish desire for revenge is certainly awesome.

"Pukes"

Well, that's the dwarves for you.

edit: although it's hardly fair to put the blame on character for not having the metagaming knowledge how that particular choice would maybe turn out X years down the road. From their point of view the whole mess originates from Bhelen's "selfish desire to rule" after all. And he was the first to start messing with his own family.

Exactly TMP. And the Keeper of Memories tells you Bhelen was asking about the king that turned Orzammar into a dictatorship. So you DO know he may do that, and past actions suggest Tyrant. As far as you know HE is the biggest threat to Orzammar. You may also know at this point that your own father, the king did NOT want him to rule, and at the end considers the DN his only child, basically disowning Bhelen. Revenge is just a side dish (best served cold) that I take enjoyment in.

It takes alot of effort to replay the game without using meta-gaming information. And THAT is what I try do do.

[RavenousBear]

Fair enough. I think the dwarves will pull it through regardless who is King, but it is just my opinion. Without the Anvil, Harrowmont dies quickly after being named king, which I find it funny that Endrin, his three sons, Harrowmont, and some minor npcs can all die within a few years.

[Costin_Razvan]

This. Metaaaaaa gaminggggg like woah. It's why I loathe it when lawfully good types side with Bhelen. MAKESNOSENSE.

Unless your completely stupid, you will realize that Bhelen will be a strong leader and is willing to reform. The fact that he as a third child was able to get rid of his other siblings is proof enough of his prowess.

Saying Harrowmont's dooming the race is just an exaggeration: if the dwarven race is doomed without Bhelen's intervention then it can hardly all be pinned on Harrowmont.

Of course not, but your sealing the fate for at least a couple more years, assuming that Orzammar doesn't get FUBARed after Harrowmont dies.

 So you DO know he may do that, and past actions suggest Tyrant.

Your somehow under the illusion that dictatorship and tyrany did not create some of the greatest empires known to man.

Wake up.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 juin 2010 - 02:42 .

[Sarah1281]

soignee wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...



edit: although it's hardly fair to put the blame on character for not having the metagaming knowledge how that particular choice would maybe turn out X years down the road. From their point of view the whole mess originates from Bhelen's "selfish desire to rule" after all. And he was the first to start messing with his own family.

This. Metaaaaaa gaminggggg like woah. It's why I loathe it when lawfully good types side with Bhelen. MAKESNOSENSE.

My Aeducan gutted Bhelen, shoved Anora on the throne and played political go-between. ....To a point.

It doesn't? My first character was a lawful good HN and was horrified by the caste system. She heard one of the criers saying something about how he was against it (probably Harrowmont's as that would have hurt Bhelen's cause) and even though she felt very for Harrowmont because he seemed like a really nice guy, she practically had a heart attack when she got to Dust Town and after speaking to Zerlinda...she went with Bhelen. She didn't talk to any of the threatened deshyrs or Nerav and was neutral with Dulin so I don't think she even heard that Bhelen wasn't an only child, let alone the suspicion that he killed them.

That probably wasn't the best way to make an informed decision but she really hated the castes and wanted to hurry up and start the Landsmeet so she didn't take the time to figure these things out.

[MKDAWUSS]

I think the Dwarf Origins basically tilt you to your choice for king. Commoner it's Bhelen because of the family ties, Noble it's Harrowmont because what Bhelen did.

[Costin_Razvan]

I think the Dwarf Origins basically tilt you to your choice for king. Commoner it's Bhelen because of the family ties, Noble it's Harrowmont because what Bhelen did.

I hate it when people suggest that a DN couldn't have as big a reason as DC to place Bhelen on the throne. You sure as hell can.

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

This. Metaaaaaa gaminggggg like woah. It's why I loathe it when lawfully good types side with Bhelen. MAKESNOSENSE.

Unless your completely stupid, you will realize that Bhelen will be a strong leader and is willing to reform. The fact that he as a third child was able to get rid of his other siblings is proof enough of his prowess.

Well, lawful good is also known as stupid good so...

One of my unscrupulous Surfacers accused him of killing his siblings and Bhelen asked why she was there if she really believed that and she was all 'I really don't care. I need troops.'

Saying Harrowmont's dooming the race is just an exaggeration: if the dwarven race is doomed without Bhelen's intervention then it can hardly all be pinned on Harrowmont.

Of course not, but your sealing the fate for at least a couple more years, assuming that Orzammar doesn't get FUBARed after Harrowmont dies.

I honestly don't see him lasting more than five years. That's how long Cailan ruled. Unless his short rule was going to doom Ferelden then Orzamamr will be fine...provided its not due to collapse in five years (which it seemed like it would have more time) or it faces a crisis that needs decisive leadership.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 29 juin 2010 - 02:46 .

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I think the Dwarf Origins basically tilt you to your choice for king. Commoner it's Bhelen because of the family ties, Noble it's Harrowmont because what Bhelen did.

I hate it when people suggest that a DN couldn't have as big a reason as DC to place Bhelen on the throne. You sure as hell can.

Well, of course they can. But unless you are playing an extremely objective character then you're probably at least going to be tempted to put Harrowmont on the throne because of the exile (especially if you're innocent) and without metagaming you won't find out how useless he is and you've seen him holding a high position in the Assembly for most if not all of your life so it's not like he's even inexperienced or nominally unqualified.

[Lady Jess]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Your somehow under the illusion that dictatorship and tyrany did not create some of the greatest empires known to man.

Wake up.

I don't give a rats behind about past empires blah blah blah, we're talking about a game, and frankly...I'm sick to death of the elitist, bullcrap, snobbery that people have against anyone elses way of playing it that doesn't coincide with their way, and thus must be "Doing it wrong!!". <_<

[Cypher0020]

Hallo dwarf fans! It took me about four tries.. but I FINALLY made my DW Warrior DCF.... and she looks good in my opinion .... sooo yeah.... oh how does the name Valdar Brosca sound?



Romance- Zev or Alistair? Hmmmmm.....

[Costin_Razvan]

And I could give a rat's ass about how you play your game, but please don't try and justify it as the right thing to do. It is an selfish act of revenge, end of story.

 and without metagaming you won't find out how useless he  

Zevran's opinion, his own words that King is a position of respect for someone to listen to the other nobles and other stuff.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 juin 2010 - 02:54 .

[Sarah1281]

Lady Jess wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Your somehow under the illusion that dictatorship and tyrany did not create some of the greatest empires known to man.

Wake up.

I don't give a rats behind about past empires blah blah blah, we're talking about a game, and frankly...I'm sick to death of the elitist, bullcrap, snobbery that people have against anyone elses way of playing it that doesn't coincide with their way, and thus must be "Doing it wrong!!". <_<

You know, since we were talking about this earlier...I've never actually told you you were doing it wrong. I think some decisions are impractical or go against game lore but if you are not trying to have a character who is practical all the time (and mine aren't either, for that matter) or don't mind bending game lore then it's really your business.

[tmp7704]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Unless your completely stupid, you will realize that Bhelen will be a strong leader and is willing to reform. The fact that he as a third child was able to get rid of his other siblings is proof enough of his prowess.

Reforms are merely changes, they aren't guaranteed to have a good effect, and frequently don't either because they were based on stupid concepts to begin with or they go awry. Bhelen's "casteless revolution" can very easily end up swallowing him in the process, like revolutions tend to do.

Your somehow under the illusion that dictatorship and tyrany did not create some of the greatest empires known to man.

Wake up.

And for every tyrant who actually achieved that there's dozens who managed to win nothing but lose what they grabbed, and wreck havoc on their own people in the process. It's like playing russian roulette with the fate of the dwarves, really. With 5 bullets in the chamber.

[Costin_Razvan]

Regardless if they can succeed or not, trying to make reforms instead of letting the system be is the right thing to do. Change rarely comes without a challenge, but it is needed.

And for every tyrant who actually achieved that there's dozens who managed to win nothing but lose what they grabbed, and wreck havoc on their own people in the process. It's like playing russian roulette with the fate of the dwarves, really. With 5 bullets in the chamber.

You can argue all you want. Humanity achieved the biggest progress under the rule of tyrants and dictators, that is a fact.

Regardless, your argument is irrelevant when the prime reason for someone killing Bhelen as a DN is revenge, pure and simple.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 juin 2010 - 03:10 .

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Regardless, your argument is irrelevant when the prime reason for someone killing Bhelen as a DN is revenge, pure and simple.

Or you could just be power-hungry and think you have a better chance of getting it from Harrowmont.

[tmp7704]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You can argue all you want. Humanity achieved the biggest progress under the rule of tyrants and dictators, that is a fact.

Sorry, but that's not a fact. Compare the leaps made in technological progress in say, the last hundred years with everything before, then the number of tyrants and dictators in charge during these respective periods. Oddly enough one goes up while the other goes down, not the other way around.

[Lady Jess]

soignee wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...



edit: although it's hardly fair to put the blame on character for not having the metagaming knowledge how that particular choice would maybe turn out X years down the road. From their point of view the whole mess originates from Bhelen's "selfish desire to rule" after all. And he was the first to start messing with his own family.

This. Metaaaaaa gaminggggg like woah. It's why I loathe it when lawfully good types side with Bhelen. MAKESNOSENSE.

My Aeducan gutted Bhelen, shoved Anora on the throne and played political go-between. ....To a point.

We're shoving Anora in a tower this time.

Now, if I put my metagame hat on...Serena is a genius. Sarah actually said this but it's true.

Bhelen gets a serious case of the Stupids at the assembly. He was slick enough to get both siblings out of his path. The only thing left is Harrowmont. Who is an old man. Even if Harrowmont gets crowned, Bhelen just needs to keep what support he has, and continue gathering it, and wait. But no, he doesn't do that, he self destructs. Leaving this sibling in a great position. Harrowmont's heir, hero of ferelden, and paragon. Then Harrowmont dies. Is the assembly, who was already behind DN ruling previously, going to deny the ONLY living paragon? The dwarf that ended a blight? and, since she is reinstated, the last Aeducan.