11146 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Lady Jess wrote...

soignee wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...



edit: although it's hardly fair to put the blame on character for not having the metagaming knowledge how that particular choice would maybe turn out X years down the road. From their point of view the whole mess originates from Bhelen's "selfish desire to rule" after all. And he was the first to start messing with his own family.

This. Metaaaaaa gaminggggg like woah. It's why I loathe it when lawfully good types side with Bhelen. MAKESNOSENSE.

My Aeducan gutted Bhelen, shoved Anora on the throne and played political go-between. ....To a point.

We're shoving Anora in a tower this time.

Now, if I put my metagame hat on...Serena is a genius. Sarah actually said this but it's true.

Bhelen gets a serious case of the Stupids at the assembly. He was slick enough to get both siblings out of his path. The only thing left is Harrowmont. Who is an old man. Even if Harrowmont gets crowned, Bhelen just needs to keep what support he has, and continue gathering it, and wait. But no, he doesn't do that, he self destructs. Leaving this sibling in a great position. Harrowmont's heir, hero of ferelden, and paragon. Then Harrowmont dies. Is the assembly, who was already behind DN ruling previously, going to deny the ONLY living paragon? The dwarf that ended a blight? and, since she is reinstated, the last Aeducan.

What are you planning on doing about Alistair? I thought you were romancing him? If he's going to be King is it going to be a long-distance relationship or a post-Landsmeet breakup? 

[Costin_Razvan]

tmp7704 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You can argue all you want. Humanity achieved the biggest progress under the rule of tyrants and dictators, that is a fact.

Sorry, but that's not a fact. Compare the leaps made in technological progress in say, the last hundred years with everything before, then the number of tyrants and dictators in charge during these respective periods. Oddly enough one goes up while the other goes down, not the other way around.

And oddly enough the crimes committed by Dictators during the last one hundred years far surpasses anything tyrants and dictators did before that ( the only one coming close is the Mongol Conquests ). And I beg to differ, we still have a great deal of dictators in this world, not in Europe or any other nation, but one merely needs to glance at Africa to get my meaning.

The leaps of technology came from Two World Wars and the Cold War that followed. I do not think I need to tell you what happened during those years.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 juin 2010 - 03:28 .

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You can argue all you want. Humanity achieved the biggest progress under the rule of tyrants and dictators, that is a fact.

Sorry, but that's not a fact. Compare the leaps made in technological progress in say, the last hundred years with everything before, then the number of tyrants and dictators in charge during these respective periods. Oddly enough one goes up while the other goes down, not the other way around.

And oddly enough the crimes committed by Dictators during the last one hundred years far surpasses anything tyrants and dictators did before that ( the only one coming close is the Mongol Conquests ). And I beg to differ, we still have a great deal of dictators in this world, not in Europe or any other nation, but one merely needs to glance at Africa to get my meaning.

 How much are the nations controlled by dictators contributing to progress? 

[Costin_Razvan]

How much are the nations controlled by dictators contributing to progress?

Quite a few actually. Take for example Iran and their nuclear power program, that's progress. ( not on a global scale, but for any individual country to achieve Nuclear Power is quite a landmark )

Most of the technological achievement that occurred in that last 100 years came from the two world wars and the Cold War either way so...( Oh and I laugh at the idea that China or Russia are not ruled through dictatorship and/or tyranny )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 juin 2010 - 03:34 .

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

soignee wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...



edit: although it's hardly fair to put the blame on character for not having the metagaming knowledge how that particular choice would maybe turn out X years down the road. From their point of view the whole mess originates from Bhelen's "selfish desire to rule" after all. And he was the first to start messing with his own family.

This. Metaaaaaa gaminggggg like woah. It's why I loathe it when lawfully good types side with Bhelen. MAKESNOSENSE.

My Aeducan gutted Bhelen, shoved Anora on the throne and played political go-between. ....To a point.

We're shoving Anora in a tower this time.

Now, if I put my metagame hat on...Serena is a genius. Sarah actually said this but it's true.

Bhelen gets a serious case of the Stupids at the assembly. He was slick enough to get both siblings out of his path. The only thing left is Harrowmont. Who is an old man. Even if Harrowmont gets crowned, Bhelen just needs to keep what support he has, and continue gathering it, and wait. But no, he doesn't do that, he self destructs. Leaving this sibling in a great position. Harrowmont's heir, hero of ferelden, and paragon. Then Harrowmont dies. Is the assembly, who was already behind DN ruling previously, going to deny the ONLY living paragon? The dwarf that ended a blight? and, since she is reinstated, the last Aeducan.

What are you planning on doing about Alistair? I thought you were romancing him? If he's going to be King is it going to be a long-distance relationship or a post-Landsmeet breakup? 

Meh, Harrowmont doesn't exactly drop dead along with the Arch Demon. She'll probably send Gorim back to handle things and be Chancellor. FYI: I don't see the cancellor fawning in the throne room 24/7. I see her
working for the king, which will entail not just advising, but travelling (with and without him), likely including to Orzammar
anyhow for diplomatic stuff, on top of her existing Grey Warden duties. Until she's called to Amaranthine to do the Warden Commander stint.  After that, well there is nothing unless Bioware gives it to us.

[tmp7704]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And oddly enough the crimes committed by Dictators during the last one hundred years far surpasses anything tyrants and dictators did before that ( the only one coming close is the Mongol Conquests ).

Is this really an argument you want to make in support of this idea how the tyrants and dictators are somehow good for the population at large?

[Gilsa]

jfc, I thought tmp was arguing with KoP this whole time. Costin's avatar is really throwing me off. =p

[Costin_Razvan]

My argument was that tyrants and dictators are good for PROGRESS and progress eventually leads to a better life for the population at large.

 jfc, I thought tmp was arguing with KoP this whole time. Costin's avatar is really throwing me off. =p

Yes well....I finally registered one of my ME2 copies....

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 juin 2010 - 03:38 .

[tmp7704]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

My argument was that tyrants and dictators are good for PROGRESS and progress eventually leads to a better life for the population at large.

And the counter-point to that is that the tyrants and dictators you cite as being currently in charge... don't actually seem to noticeably contribute to the progress at large. Africa, North Korea, Iran/Iraq... they are at best re-implementing the wheels already invented somewhere else as much as 50+ years ago, and some of them literally run their countries into the ground chasing after their mad dreams of power. Meanwhile, progress is being made every day... elsewhere.

[Costin_Razvan]

Meanwhile, progress is being made every day... elsewhere.

Compare the progress of the last 20 years to that of the one from 1914 to 1990 and you will find the difference to be like the one between the Moon and the Sun.

[tmp7704]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Meanwhile, progress is being made every day... elsewhere.

Compare the progress of the last 20 years to that of the one from 1914 to 1990 and you will find the difference to be like the one between the Moon and the Sun.

Yes, but in favour of which of these periods?

Compare say, the growth of processing power in computers from 1914-1990 and from 1990-2010. Or the changes in communication technology -- in 1990 there was ~12 million people worldwide who had a mobile phone, and the concept was pretty nebulous still. Today this number is 4.6 billions and the devices are like night and day. These changes and acceleration happens in numerous fields. Check some articles on the technological singularity (pretty fresh concept itself) they tend to come with interesting facts on that.

[Raonar]

Caak7i wrote...

You know, that actually makes me dislike Endrin even more since he does all that and treats you like a baby; when a "bump" on the road occurs, then he goes "tough love" on you.

Trian had to have a commission only a few years back though probably not as grand as yours since you are the "favorite".

This may also have contributed to how the DN never became aware of Bhelen's plots. His father's pampering actually crippled the DN's ability to keep an ear to the stone.

[Sarah1281]

Raonar wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

You know, that actually makes me dislike Endrin even more since he does all that and treats you like a baby; when a "bump" on the road occurs, then he goes "tough love" on you.

Trian had to have a commission only a few years back though probably not as grand as yours since you are the "favorite".

This may also have contributed to how the DN never became aware of Bhelen's plots. His father's pampering actually crippled the DN's ability to keep an ear to the stone.

I wonder if the DN had a near-death experience when they were little or was a sickly child and that's what led to the all the blatant favoritism? Yeah, it says you're the most accomplished but aside from being a better fighter than Bhelen or Trian and having people like you more, what does that even mean? 

[Raonar]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Raonar wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

You know, that actually makes me dislike Endrin even more since he does all that and treats you like a baby; when a "bump" on the road occurs, then he goes "tough love" on you.

Trian had to have a commission only a few years back though probably not as grand as yours since you are the "favorite".

This may also have contributed to how the DN never became aware of Bhelen's plots. His father's pampering actually crippled the DN's ability to keep an ear to the stone.

I wonder if the DN had a near-death experience when they were little or was a sickly child and that's what led to the all the blatant favoritism? Yeah, it says you're the most accomplished but aside from being a better fighter than Bhelen or Trian and having people like you more, what does that even mean? 

If I got it right, the DN was seen as better than Trian in every way. Though, come to think of it, overshadowing Trian at something, besides yelling and maul-swinging, wouldn't be all that hard. And with Bhelen staying covert... well, I'm sure you get the idea.

Not exactly a point in support of my Genius DN idea but there it is...

Modifié par Raonar, 29 juin 2010 - 05:29 .

[Sarah1281]

Raonar wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Raonar wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

You know, that actually makes me dislike Endrin even more since he does all that and treats you like a baby; when a "bump" on the road occurs, then he goes "tough love" on you.

Trian had to have a commission only a few years back though probably not as grand as yours since you are the "favorite".

This may also have contributed to how the DN never became aware of Bhelen's plots. His father's pampering actually crippled the DN's ability to keep an ear to the stone.

I wonder if the DN had a near-death experience when they were little or was a sickly child and that's what led to the all the blatant favoritism? Yeah, it says you're the most accomplished but aside from being a better fighter than Bhelen or Trian and having people like you more, what does that even mean? 

If I got it right, the DN was seen as better than Trian in every way. Though, come to think of it, overshadowing Trian at something, besides yelling and maul-swinging, wouldn't be all that hard. And with Bhelen staying covert... well, I'm sure you get the idea.

Not exactly a point in support of my Genius DN idea but there it is...

 Well I guess they have to accommodate everyone from genius DN's who just didn't have time to worry about their little brother on top of everything else to DN's who don't understand how the Assembly works and needs a guard to explain what a Paragon is, not to mention everything in between.

[Fangirl17]

It sounds like Im joining the party late but I have recently made a dwarf character that I can stick with. I made a couple of others (FDC,MDC,FDN) but I earased them when I got to Ostagar.

Ok,so my dwarf character is a FDN with snow white hair,blue/silver eyes, pink make-up,and pink tatoos. She turned out very well and I am very happy with the way she looks. I wish I had a pic of her but PS3 games dont update on the site EVER anymore >.>

Anyways, she's a two-handed warrior,wich is slightly odd because the swords are as big as her O.o but whatever she's super strong. She's a kind person and a goody-two-shoes but she has a temper and uses intimidation a lot.

She was struck HARD by her brothers betrail and her older brothers death. I mean, what a tragic origin. All of the origins are tragic in ways but the DN origin really made me feel emotion,you know. Its my favorite origin now. Both of the dwarven origins are great. Its funny because I wasnt really a big dwarf fan but then after playing the game with humans and elves like 6-7 times I felt it was time for a change.

So back to my dwarf character, her name is Eleka. In the origin she was in love with Gorim and was very heartbroken to have to say goodbye and she felt guilty for getting him into that mess. The first thing she did after Lothering was going to Denerim to see Gorim(sorry if my spelling of things is off its very late). She was suprised that he had moved on so quickly but she wasnt bitter. She was sad but happy that Gorim was happy. She hid her disappointment and sadness with the line "So when do I get to meet the lucky woman." Or something like that and moved on.

I plan on romancing Alistair but Im kinda conflicted. I(Eleka) really wants to return to her home,but I can also see her wanting to stay as a GW with her love and move on from that part of her life. But she misses it terribly. I cant wait to do the Orzzimar(uuugh excuse my spelling if I totaly butchered it) quest with my DN ^^

Well I think I have done enough ramballing.You guys probably wont even read all of that but it was fun to come and talk about my new dwarf character that Im really excited about. I was about to give up on DA because I was getting REALLY bored but now I have enthusiasm again thanks to Eleka ^^

EDIT:Darnit I hate it when my post is at the very bottom its like no one ever reads it >.> And sorry for the very long post :3

Modifié par Fangirl17, 29 juin 2010 - 07:23 .

[Sarah1281]

Welcome! 

You know, if Alistair isn't going to be King there's always the compromise option of returning to Orzamamr because real Wardens don't just sit pretty up in Amaranthine but take the fight to the darkspawn themselves.

[Fangirl17]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Welcome! 

You know, if Alistair isn't going to be King there's always the compromise option of returning to Orzamamr because real Wardens don't just sit pretty up in Amaranthine but take the fight to the darkspawn themselves.

Thank you :3

Yeah he isnt going to be King. After the political hell Eleka goes through she does not want Alistair to go through anything like that,even if human politics arent as "extreme" as dwarven politics.

 Im not importing Eleka to Awakenings because  I wanna keep the ending I get in Origins ^^ (and Awakening bores me now)

Modifié par Fangirl17, 29 juin 2010 - 07:39 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Gilsa wrote...

jfc, I thought tmp was arguing with KoP this whole time. Costin's avatar is really throwing me off. =p

Eh, I am not so sure what they are arguing about.

Dictatorship and progress are not mutually exclusive. Democracy and progress are not necessarily mutually inclusive either. Too many factors come into play.

To argue that progress are only made in democracies because they are democracies, is having a very simplistic argument. To also argue that only dictatorships can bring about progress is also simplistic. Many argue that wealth comes before democracy and not after. Others argue vice versa. Both lack nuance.
The Western World did not progress via democracy only, but it was certainly a factor (European imperialism was a great factor as well to their current stage of development). Other nations, mainly China, progressed without the need of a western style democracy.

However, from what I know of history, no tyranny can ever maintain a durable kind of progress, but they can certainly start it. Progress and liberties are necessary for each other to last and the good leader has to build foundations for both. By liberty, I do not only mean western democracies, there are certainly other types of regimes that can ensure and promote individual liberties. Civilisations reach their golden age when they are marked by the Rule of Law and individuals having the freedom to be creative and dynamic. 

Anyway, I don't really see the point of this dicscussion. Perhaps it is Bhelen related?
I personally do not consider Bhelen to be more tyranical than the already established system. The tyranny of an individual is not really different from the tyranny of a class / caste.
Furthermore, Bhelen's reforms do promote certain liberties including individual ones via less caste restrictions, betterment of merchants (very essential to progress and liberties), and of course the betterment of the casteless.

Bhelen is a prime example of the enlightened despot, who I have no doubt will bring progress to the Dwarves as a whole. Will it last? Well that depends on how the Dwarves will progress mentally after Bhelen's death, but his reforms are key.

The most dangerous kind of tyranny, one my people currently suffer from, is the tyranny of tradition. If the tyranny of one man might knock some sense into them, to start questioning and reforming their failing traditions, then so be it. This could lead to a reformation of the Dwarven system into a more inclusionary one.

EDIT: what I mean to say is. Bhelen's reforms present an opportunity for the dwarves. If they want progress, they have to embrace his reforms as they address failing traditions and promote relations with the surface, both of which are key. However, for that progress to last, political freedoms will have to be granted eventually and institutions have to be established that ensure the Rule of Law.
Will Bhelen or his succesor do that? It's hard to tell.

And I am not saying Orzammar has to become democratic or not remain a monarchy. But that political space has to be given to the populace if the Dwarven civilisation is to become dynamic and creative again.  In general, economic and social reforms, which Bhelen is doing, precedes or can pave the way for political reform.

We may not know if Bhelen will eventually do this, but I can say without a doubt that the dwarves stand a far better chance with him than with Harrowmont who does nothing except aggravate the dwarven situation, via his blind devotion to failing traditions, isolationist tendencies, and disregard for a large part of his own population (actually, he wouldn't even consider the casteless as people or even living creatures).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 juin 2010 - 10:15 .

[soignee]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

*snippage of rather excellent points*

EDIT: what I mean to say is. Bhelen's reforms present an opportunity for the dwarves. If they want progress, they have to embrace his reforms as they address failing traditions and promote relations with the surface, both of which are key. However, for that progress to last, political freedoms will have to be granted eventually and institutions have to be established that ensure the Rule of Law.
Will Bhelen or his succesor do that? It's hard to tell.

And I am not saying Orzammar has to become democratic or not remain a monarchy. But that political space has to be given to the populace if the Dwarven civilisation is to become dynamic and creative again.  In general, economic and social reforms, which Bhelen is doing, precedes or can pave the way for political reform.

We may not know if Bhelen will eventually do this, but I can say without a doubt that the dwarves stand a far better chance with him than with Harrowmont who does nothing except aggravate the dwarven situation, via his blind devotion to failing traditions, isolationist tendencies, and disregard for a large part of his own population (actually, he wouldn't even consider the casteless as people or even living creatures).

Well said, KoP! +5 Soignee Approval points here.

I'm really interested to see what happens to Orzammar post Bhelen, if it's even revisited. Because ok sure, when Endrin died there was a power vacuum. But when Bhelen goes, welllllllllll.

It all depends what he puts in place, what heir he has "groomed" to take over, I suppose. The deshyrs/council are disintergrated, but they can be reformed.

I've always liked the idea of the deshyrs, but for the it to extend to the other castes, for there to be representatives present from all layers of the city to help decide. Can you imagine, a blacksmith deshyr? An artisan deshyr? A Legion deshyr? Heee. Ah, the politics would be hilarious and the old snobbery and prejudice would be in place still, but it would seem less of a self-serving ruling body.

Modifié par soignee, 29 juin 2010 - 01:14 .

[Corker]

soignee wrote...

This. Metaaaaaa gaminggggg like woah. It's why I loathe it when lawfully good types side with Bhelen. MAKESNOSENSE.

My Aeducan gutted Bhelen, shoved Anora on the throne and played political go-between. ....To a point.

On my first runthrough, my fairly LG HNF was all "Harrowmont Harrowmont Harrowmont," even with my husband standing over my shoulder saying, "No, Bhelen's better in the long run!"  She's a Cousland, she supports an orderly succession and Bhelen smelled like a rat.

Then she ran into that outcast Smith caste woman in Dust Town.  The one with the baby she was ordered to abandon.

In the Assembly, when Harrowmont was all "But I will uphold dwarven culture and tradition," she thought about that woman and what dwarven culture and tradition meant, and gave the crown to a very surprised Bhelen.

...nah, the fact that I was just two months postpartum myself had nothing to do with it.

[Costin_Razvan]

To also argue that only dictatorships can bring about progress is also simplistic.

My argument is that the biggest progress that humanity saw occurred because of dictatorships, either directly or indirectly. Not saying that it doesn't happen without them.

However, from what I know of history, no tyranny can ever maintain a durable kind of progress, but they can certainly start it.

That is very true.

OT: Anyone seen the new Witcher 2 trailer.

Bloody epic.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 juin 2010 - 01:49 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

soignee wrote...
I've always liked the idea of the deshyrs, but for the it to extend to the other castes, for there to be representatives present from all layers of the city to help decide. Can you imagine, a blacksmith deshyr? An artisan deshyr? A Legion deshyr? Heee. Ah, the politics would be hilarious and the old snobbery and prejudice would be in place still, but it would seem less of a self-serving ruling body.

I would definately support such an assembly, but when the caste system is soften up or better yet, mostly forgotten. Otherwise there is a high risk of turning the assembly from a battlefield between the nobility to an inter-caste one.

Imo, Orzammar requires a strong leader capable of rallying behind him / her all or most castes, at least for the near future. Paragon Aeducan succeeded in large part because of this. Indeed, he went for the lower castes first. 
So if such an Assembly is to be created, it should not be able to overpower the Monarch or influence him / her to favor certain caste interests over others too much. This is also a reason why I would not espouse a recreated and reformed all caste Assembly being able to elect its king. I believe it best if the monarchy be monopolised by one House (Aeducans) for now, so the rest can stfu and spend energy on more constructive things. The Aeducans practically already had a hegemony over Orzammar. It just needs to become official.

The only caste that can afford to be alienated is the Warrior caste. Mass conscritpion of castless and others would make them redundant, much like the European warrior aristocracy became redundant with the introduction of mass conscription (one of  the first was Prussia I believe. Then France and as a reaction, all of Europe followed suite). 

The most important caste is the merchant caste and if the Monarch had to favor a group, it's the merchants. Bhelen should make sure that, unlike the warrior caste, the merchants should be patronised mostly by the Aeducans.   

That said, the Monarch should be subtle in his / her preferences and has to have, at least in apearance, the interest of al castes at heart. Bhelen played this beautifully for now. He played the tradition card and $ for the nobility, reclaiming territory for the warriors, more economic opportunity for the merchants, rights for the casteless.

But this should eventually be reflected in institutions. Bhelen will not live forever and eventually, an Aeducan will screw things up, as mostly all dynasties end up with an idiot on the throne. Institutions however outlive individuals and that is what is needed. Of course, institution building is a very hard and complex issue and I would not presume to know exactly what kind of institutions Orzammar needs.

The irony of course is that eventually, all these reforms will ultimately become stagnating traditions that someone will have to overthrow in the future. Aah, the wonders of imperfection, constantly pushing us to change and adapt *ponders philosophically*.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 juin 2010 - 03:11 .

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dictatorship and progress are not mutually exclusive. Democracy and progress are not necessarily mutually inclusive either. Too many factors come into play.

To argue that progress are only made in democracies because they are democracies, is having a very simplistic argument. To also argue that only dictatorships can bring about progress is also simplistic.

Absolutely. I'm only arguing the part about how dictatorship and/or tyranny is somehow supposed to have the most positive influence on the progress -- this may happen, but compared to number of situations when it doesn't and the opposite happens if anything, is relatively rare. Hence the earlier russian roulette analogy.

[Lady Jess]

Do they say how long Harromont actually lives post game? I can't remember.