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[Herr Uhl]

Lady Jess wrote...

Do they say how long Harromont actually lives post game? I can't remember.

No.

[Sarah1281]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Do they say how long Harromont actually lives post game? I can't remember.

No.

Given how old he is (ten years older than Endrin) and all the stress of dealing with Bhele's rebellion without the Anvil I wouldn't give him more than five years.

[KnightofPhoenix]

He definately lasts more than 6 months, as he is still alive by Awakening. But yea I wouldn't give him more than a few years.

The funny thing is, the epilogue in Origins with Harrowmont shows that he ignores what the casteless did in Kal Hirol and all the effort your PC put to send him the tablet were in vain, as he doesn't give a ****. Unless the epilogue in Awakening is met to retcon that of Origins, which it shouldn't.

Truly, the epilogue in Awakening concerning the Dwarves makes much more sense with Bhelen as king, due to more recognition for the casteless and the retaking of Kal Hirol.

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Do they say how long Harromont actually lives post game? I can't remember.

No.

Given how old he is (ten years older than Endrin) and all the stress of dealing with Bhele's rebellion without the Anvil I wouldn't give him more than five years.

Oh Wow, 10 years older than Endrin? DN, Bhelen, and Trian musta have been a serious handful, on top of ruling Orzammar, cuz Harrowmont sure isn't lookin that aged.

Anyhow, 5 years is good. That gives Serena plenty of time to get the Wardens rebuilt, the Human kiing good and advised (haven't had my coffee yet best phrase I could come up with) while Gorim handles House Aeducan's affairs and keeps an ear to the stone.

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He definately lasts more than 6 months, as he is still alive by Awakening. But yea I wouldn't give him more than a few years.
The funny thing is, the epilogue in Origins with Harrowmont shows that he ignores what the casteless did in Kal Hirol and all the effort your PC put to send him the tablet were in vain, as he doesn't give a ****. Unless the epilogue in Awakening is met to retcon that of Origins, which it shouldn't.
Truly, the epilogue in Awakening concerning the Dwarves makes much more sense with Bhelen as king, due to more recognition for the casteless and the retaking of Kal Hirol.

I haven't taken a dwarf through but the couple I have played, city elf and human mage both got the same slide. Then again the epilogue slides for awakening SUCK so I refuse to believe them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...
Gorim handles House Aeducan's affairs and keeps an ear to the stone.

You think the whole of House Aeducan would be willing to let their affairs be handled by a warrior whose life and house are dedicated to serve them?
A  house made of people like Piotin would never accept this.

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
Gorim handles House Aeducan's affairs and keeps an ear to the stone.

You think the whole of House Aeducan would be willing to let their affairs be handled by a warrior whose life and house are dedicated to serve them?
A  house made of people like Piotin would never accept this.

Piotin is dead. I entered the proving on the way to talk to Lord Dace in the deep roads. And From how Gorim talked at my last DNF ending, that's what he was doing anyhow. He said the house had been restored, so I'm guessing DN is the last of em at this point. Maybe they ALL died in the rebellion after Harrowmont was crowned. Or hell, maybe Bhelen killed the ones that didn't support him...you know how he was.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...
Piotin is dead. I entered the proving on the way to talk to Lord Dace in the deep roads. And From how Gorim talked at my last DNF ending, that's what he was doing anyhow. He said the house had been restored, so I'm guessing DN is the last of em at this point. Maybe they ALL died in the rebellion after Harrowmont was crowned. Or hell, maybe Bhelen killed the ones that didn't support him...you know how he was.

I never had Piotin die. The proving matches were not to the death and you can speak to him after you defeat him.
And all of House Aeducan supported Bhelen, as far as we know. though yea the whole "the house has been restored" is a very weird line that doesn't make sense. House Aeducan was never removed to begin with.  How I understood it is that the DN is allowed back into the House.

Anyhow, a warrior handling the affairs of House Aeducan no less seems meeh to me, but to each his own

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
Piotin is dead. I entered the proving on the way to talk to Lord Dace in the deep roads. And From how Gorim talked at my last DNF ending, that's what he was doing anyhow. He said the house had been restored, so I'm guessing DN is the last of em at this point. Maybe they ALL died in the rebellion after Harrowmont was crowned. Or hell, maybe Bhelen killed the ones that didn't support him...you know how he was.

I never had Piotin die. The proving matches were not to the death and you can speak to him after you defeat him.
And all of House Aeducan supported Bhelen, as far as we know. though yea the whole "the house has been restored" is a very weird line that doesn't make sense. House Aeducan was never removed to begin with.  How I understood it is that the DN is allowed back into the House.

Anyhow, a warrior handling the affairs of House Aeducan no less seems meeh to me, but to each his own

It probably is meh. But who defies the will of a Paragon really? And Princess since that gets restored. I mean I suppose he's more her...representative? for now? by correspondance maybe. She is still a warden, and does have things that must be done before she can return. I imagine as Ferelden's chancellor she'd travel there from time to time and handle things in person, check up on Harrowmont, put her own ear to the stone. 

She's in a pretty good position really, after Bhelen's case of the stupids. Now both HER siblings are out of the way, with clear unadulterated proof that it was self defense. A very old man is King, and has named her heir. The assembly has named her a Paragon, . She's got the ear (among other things) of the human king (errr if she can go through with the DR, magic freaks her out), and her BFFs are a former Antivan crow and an Orlesian bard.

edited for lack of coffee:pinched:

Modifié par Lady Jess, 29 juin 2010 - 05:20 .

[Gilsa]

KoP -- on the game where your dwarf remains in Denerim to be chancellor, who is handling House Aeducan's business?

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Lady Jess. Let's hope she is as good a monarch as Bhelen

But if she planned and schemed like this, I would say she's become...intriguing to me lol

[KnightofPhoenix]

Gilsa wrote...

KoP -- on the game where your dwarf remains in Denerim to be chancellor, who is handling House Aeducan's business?

Bhelen of course, he is the head of the House.

However from what I understood, Dain got his own House when he became Paragon. That new House would be in both Orzamar and Ferelden, as he is planing for a hereditary chancellorship (for little Trian mostly). I don't know who Dain would appoint to handle his House's business in Orzammar, but it will not be Gorim. Probably an Aeducan who joined the House.   

But I do not realy understand the mechanism involved in creating a new House from a person already belonging to a noble House.

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Lady Jess. Let's hope she is as good a monarch as Bhelen
But if she planned and schemed like this, I would say she's become...intriguing to me lol

LOL well she PLANNED to put Bhelen on the throne actually. But somewhere between seeing Gorim and entering Orzammar she got more angry. So she let him think she was helping, then switched sides on the way to Jarvia. Which was good...she got proof of his setup. She thought she was just taking his favorite toy away, but...he got stupid and attacked. Look at that...a dozen witnesses including the new king to prove...self defense.

If she ever got to rule, I think she'd be smart enough to combine the best of both candidates. Keep the assembly, but give the voiceless a voice in it. Maybe even come up with a way to bring the casteless a way out of their misery, though i don't know how. And it's not like Bioware will ever let us see it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...
If she ever got to rule, I think she'd be smart enough to combine the best of both candidates. Keep the assembly, but give the voiceless a voice in it. Maybe even come up with a way to bring the casteless a way out of their misery, though i don't know how. And it's not like Bioware will ever let us see it.

Bhelen tried that and the Assembly tried to assassinate him at least twice.

[Sarah1281]

I never had Piotin die. The proving matches were not to the death and you can speak to him after you defeat him. And all of House Aeducan supported Bhelen, as far as we know. though yea the whole "the house has been restored" is a very weird line that doesn't make sense. House Aeducan was never removed to begin with. How I understood it is that the DN is allowed back into the House.

He doesn't die at the Proving, he dies if you crown Harrowmont and then click on him as do all of Bhelen's other fighters. Unless you think he only attacks you but wouldn't support Bhelen's rebellion then putting Harrowmont on the throne = dead Piotin.



Yeah, looking at the dialogue at the coronation if Bhelen is King then you are restored to House Aeducan while if Harrowmont is King you are named the heir to House Aeducan which makes you the head of the House. Gorim's comments about putting the House in order make more sense if Harrowmont is King but even if Bhelen is I'm guessing there are still some things that need to be settled with the rapid changes over the last year and you need to find a place there.

But I do not realy understand the mechanism involved in creating a new House from a person already belonging to a noble House.

That's why I ignore that slide because while I'll gladly take another seat in the Assembly, there's no way I'm giving up the chance to legally be an Aeducan again. Sentiment and awesome last name aside, it's really not very practical to spurn one of/the most powerful House in Orzammar to start your own House. You'll lose a lot of power that way.

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
If she ever got to rule, I think she'd be smart enough to combine the best of both candidates. Keep the assembly, but give the voiceless a voice in it. Maybe even come up with a way to bring the casteless a way out of their misery, though i don't know how. And it's not like Bioware will ever let us see it.

Bhelen tried that and the Assembly tried to assassinate him at least twice.

That's when it's handy to have your BFF's be a former crow and a bard, plus Gorim...though he's less subtle about things. And Serena is a rogue herself, expert in traps and poisons;)

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
If she ever got to rule, I think she'd be smart enough to combine the best of both candidates. Keep the assembly, but give the voiceless a voice in it. Maybe even come up with a way to bring the casteless a way out of their misery, though i don't know how. And it's not like Bioware will ever let us see it.

Bhelen tried that and the Assembly tried to assassinate him at least twice.

That doesn't mean it doesn't work. And if you're going to be anybody in dwarven politics then you're going to have to expect a few assassination attempts. Maybe Bhelen just had more than normal as he was pissing off everyone with access to assassins and that's why they bothered mentioning it? We know he was looking into the precedent for dissolving the Assembly before Endrin even died so he was probably just looking for an excuse and the assassinations gave him one. He couldn't be expected to deal with attempts on his life while waging his war against the darkspawn, now could he? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But I do not realy understand the mechanism involved in creating a new House from a person already belonging to a noble House.

That's why I ignore that slide because while I'll gladly take another seat in the Assembly, there's no way I'm giving up the chance to legally be an Aeducan again. Sentiment and awesome last name aside, it's really not very practical to spurn one of/the most powerful House in Orzammar to start your own House. You'll lose a lot of power that way.

If Bhelen is dead and you are made head of House Aeducan, of course it means you would lose power. But if Bhelen is still alive, this is a great opportunity.

What Dain is planing is this. With House Dain (let's call it that for now) settled in both Orzammar and Ferelden, it will be able to pioneer the rapprochement between the two kingdoms (one of which is ruled by them), especially economically speaking.

Dain is planing to rally all surface Dwarves in Ferelden and beyond around this new House. At least be a patron to Dwarf surface merchants and try to represent them as much as possible. That, plus secure House Dain and their commecial allies' interests in Orzammar. In essence, it's almost like a pseudo multi-national corporation, that actually rules a government (Ferelden) and has strong influence on the other (trade and paragonhood). Building on these foundations, Dain is planing to expand House Dain's influence to beyond Ferelden and try to reach out as much as possible to Dwarf surface merchants in otehr nations.

Essentially, it's a consortium of dwarf merchants rallied around House Dain. Making House Dain an extremily powerful and wealthy House.  
 
Ha, I love Dain

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
We know he was looking into the precedent for dissolving the Assembly before Endrin even died so he was probably just looking for an excuse and the assassinations gave him one. 

How so? I never got that impression.

[Lady Jess]

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
If she ever got to rule, I think she'd be smart enough to combine the best of both candidates. Keep the assembly, but give the voiceless a voice in it. Maybe even come up with a way to bring the casteless a way out of their misery, though i don't know how. And it's not like Bioware will ever let us see it.

Bhelen tried that and the Assembly tried to assassinate him at least twice.

That doesn't mean it doesn't work. And if you're going to be anybody in dwarven politics then you're going to have to expect a few assassination attempts. Maybe Bhelen just had more than normal as he was pissing off everyone with access to assassins and that's why they bothered mentioning it? We know he was looking into the precedent for dissolving the Assembly before Endrin even died so he was probably just looking for an excuse and the assassinations gave him one. He couldn't be expected to deal with attempts on his life while waging his war against the darkspawn, now could he? 

That's a good point. Oh look a blight and they're trying to kill me...I have an excuse!

I need to go back to Orzammar and kill Piotin if I can. I did kill Vartag...lol I was nosing around and ran into him and he attacked me. Silly man,

[Lady Jess]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
We know he was looking into the precedent for dissolving the Assembly before Endrin even died so he was probably just looking for an excuse and the assassinations gave him one. 

How so? I never got that impression.

The keeper of memories or whatever he's called will tell you exactly that if you ask him about Bhelen.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
We know he was looking into the precedent for dissolving the Assembly before Endrin even died so he was probably just looking for an excuse and the assassinations gave him one. 

How so? I never got that impression.

I hadn't either until a few days ago when I decided to ask the Shaper some questions that only appear when you tattle on Vartag and I found this:
PC: Can you tell me anything about Prince Bhelen?

Shaper: The prince consulted me before his father died. He wanted to know about King Bemot, the last King to rule during a Blight. (VO: emotionless) I told him Bemot made many changes during his rule. The Assembly was even disbanded for a two-year period. (VO: emotionless) Bemot declared that, in times of war, the Warrior Caste answered directly to the King and all voting was suspended. Bhelen seemed quite interested. (VO: carefully non-judgemental but a little worried)

You can also ask about these:
PC: Is it true you're related to Harrowmont?

Shaper: He is a kinsman, yes. If you count to the sixth degree of remove, I'm related to every noble lineage still represented in Orzammar. (VO: explaining something boring) I can even trace my descent directly to House Zygmunt, which lost its thaig to the darkspawn thirteen generations ago (VO: a dull recitation).

PC: Do you get to vote on the next King?

Shaper: The Shaperate do not vote. We simply record history as it happens. (VO: flat)

PC: But you have a preference for King?

Shaper: I cannot speak my opinions. History can be changed with a careless word (VO: careful, not answering)
PC: What do you know about Vartag Gavorn?

Shaper: The Gavorn family is a minor one, founded when a daughter of the Forender House married down to a Warrior Caste man (VO: Explaining something boring) Her brother died, leaving her father heirless, so the Assembly granted him a new family name and allowed him to adopt his daughter's children as heirs (VO: Explaining something boring) Vartag Gavorn is on record asking the Assembly to bar Harrowmont from King Endrin's sickroom. He is a vocal supporter of Prince Bhelen (VO: carefully non-judgemental)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Lady Jess wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
We know he was looking into the precedent for dissolving the Assembly before Endrin even died so he was probably just looking for an excuse and the assassinations gave him one. 

How so? I never got that impression.

The keeper of memories or whatever he's called will tell you exactly that if you ask him about Bhelen.

Or he could be lying, as our dear Shaper would consider Bhelen a scum that even dares to consider the casteless as living creatures.

EDIT: or not.
Thanks Sarah. But that's still not proof that Bhelen was planing for it. Possible, but we do not really know.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 29 juin 2010 - 05:54 .

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
We know he was looking into the precedent for dissolving the Assembly before Endrin even died so he was probably just looking for an excuse and the assassinations gave him one. 

How so? I never got that impression.

The keeper of memories or whatever he's called will tell you exactly that if you ask him about Bhelen.

Or he could be lying, as our dear Shaper conbsiders Bhelen a scum that even dares to consider the casteless as living creatures.

I doubt it. Most people don't know about Bhelen's casteless tolerance beyond his having a noble hunter and that's hardly scandalous although the more conservative nobles frown upon it. He doesn't even accuse Bhelen of anything, just states the facts. Well, I guess him looking interested in the information was an opinion but it's really nothing that would horrify anyone at the time, just some foreshadowing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Check edit.

I personally do not mind Bhelen dissolving the Assembly, but he did it only after several assassination attempts and after the blight was defeated.