11146 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin using the base is what the reapers want since we use tech that they made. Sorry but I am not giving that base to TIM since that is liking giving the Atom bomb to Hitler.



I kept the Genophage Data, rewrote the Heretics, spared the Rachni, and do everything in my power to see the galaxy stand united when the reapers arrive.



In history every. single . damn . country that said "Our Goals first" "Dominance Now and FOREVER" is not a nice one to model youself after. TIM while a better boss than the Council is an evil being and deserves a firing squad for what he did, does, and most likely will do.



I am still grumpy that I cant play as a dwarf anymore since my DC was so much fun to me. (hehehe "Grumpy")

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I know that they're biased but the questions of whether TIM can be trusted in this matter and whether you think the good will outweigh the bad are valid ones that needs to be considered even if you do decide that ulitimately the answer to both are yes.

You could decide that he'd do more harm than good with it and thus destroy the base for better or for worse without needing to be particularly pissed at TIM at all.

That is my opinion on the decision. Your brother is not an idiot for deciding to blow up the Collector Base and think it the evil choice ( which was the original point of this argument ), because be considered that it is is evil to destroy that technology only to ****** off TIM, and a lot people do it because of that.

I feel that anyone who destroys the base because of their distrust of TIM is an idiot ( not wanting to use Reaper Tech....now that's another cup ).....and you REALLY don't want to hear what eloquent words I can conjure up for those that would have preserved the base but only if they have given it to the Council/Alliance.

No, my brother is an idiot because he's an idiot. He's the one I'm embarrassed to be related to, remember? 

And the reason I mentioned an alternative reason to destroy it is because you said the only reason you had heard was 'I hate TIM!'

[Costin_Razvan]

And the reason I mentioned an alternative reason to destroy it is because you said the only reason you had heard was 'I hate TIM!'

That's the biggest reason I have heard for destroying the base, yes... A minority doesn't want to use Reaper Tech.

Giggles: I will politely ask that you keep your comments about comparing TIM to Hitler out of this thread.

 No, my brother is an idiot because he's an idiot. He's the one I'm embarrassed to be related to, remember?  

Is he the reason you are nice to Trian? 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:10 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Costin using the base is what the reapers want since we use tech that they made.

An extremily poor argument.

You know that cannon you upgraded the Normandy with? Yea, that awesome canon that made short work of the Collector ship. Reaper tech reverse engineered from Sovereign.

You know that IFF that Shepard needed to use the Omega four relay. Yea, that one. Reaper tech.

You know that thing the Protheans used to deal a huge FU to the Reapers? Yea, the Conduit. Reverse engineered Reaper tech. Similarily, you know those creatures the Protheans studied and analysed and then modified them to not respond to the Reapers? Yea, the keepers. That's studying and modifying Reaper tech.

In addition, using the tech they left for us is not like using the tech they kept away from us. Namely, the cosntruction of a reaper. Knowing how to build a reaper means knowing al their strengths and weaknesses. The good doctor also knows how to make poisons.

Oh and all the Godwin and "evilness", I will not respond to, as it would reduce the intellecutal value of this thread.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:12 .

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Costin using the base is what the reapers want since we use tech that they made.

An extremily poor argument.

You know that cannon you upgraded the Normandy with? Yea, that awesome canon that made short work of the Collector ship. Reaper tech reverse engineered from Sovereign.

You know that IFF that Shepard needed to use the Omega four relay. Yea, that one. Reaper tech.

You know that thing the Protheans used to deal a huge FU to the Reapers? Yea, the Conduit. Reverse engineered Reaper tech. Similarily, you know those creatures the Protheans studied and analysed and then modified them to not respond to the Reapers? Yea, the keepers. That's studying Reaper tech.

In addition, using the tech they left for us is not like using the tech they kept away from us. Namely, the cosntruction of a reaper. Knowing how to build a reaper means knowing al their strengths and weaknesses. The good doctor also knows how to make poisons.

Considering the more we know and use their tech the more we become like them. Knowing counterwise that they can just as easily beat us. Its only one hell of a lucky chance that Soverigen died, using Mass Effect based tech is not going to work on them.

See if the choice was threefold -Blow it, Give it to Cerberus, Give to co Council I may have given it to the council. But there is no way in hell that I am giving that base to Cerberus a bunch of comical bafoons who failed at 99% of what they do. Or go overboard and lose dozens of people when things even end well (Lazarus and D, Reaper.)

[KnightofPhoenix]

But studying how a reaper is built, means knowing all their strengths and weaknesses that would allow us to either modify their technology or come up with something new to counter them.

And yea the Council has such a better track record. I would rather trust someone who has humanity's interests at heart, but taht depends on what kind of galaxy you want.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But studying how a reaper is built, means knowing all their strengths and weaknesses that would allow us to either modify their technology or come up with something new to counter them.
And yea the Council has such a better track record. I would rather trust someone who has humanity's interests at heart, but taht depends on what kind of galaxy you want.

Does the line :"Cerberus is humanity" ring a bell up there Knight?

Anyone who sees TIM as having human interests in his mind is a fool. He has his own agenda, his own plans, and they dont involve building a better future for humans. The UN for example tries to build  a better future, UNICEF, the REd Cross, and the Canadian School of Peacebuidling as well. While Cerberus has probably caused hundreds if not thousands of human deaths alone.

[Costin_Razvan]

And yea the Council has such a better track record. I would rather trust someone who has humanity's interests at heart, but taht depends on what kind of galaxy you want.

Let's recount their "better" track record. ( I know you are sarcastic Knight, so this is meant to Giggles.)

Using the Genophage on the Krogan.
Committing Genocide on the Rachni.
Allowing the Geth to almost annihilate the Quarians.
Allowing Saren to walk away for destroying Eden Prime.
Not bothering to send someone after Saren save for a new Spectre Recruit, ( the decision to make Shepard a Spectre was just to appease the Alliance, nothing more )

Oh and my favorite: Almost allowing the entire bloody Galaxy to be consumed by the Reapers. Yes certainly the Council far better then Cerberus at their jobs. Certainly.

Anyone who sees TIM as having human interests in his mind is a fool.

I will ask this once: Leave this thread, NOW. It's ok for someone to view it as such for their own, but don't insult the rest of us by calling us fools.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But studying how a reaper is built, means knowing all their strengths and weaknesses that would allow us to either modify their technology or come up with something new to counter them.
And yea the Council has such a better track record. I would rather trust someone who has humanity's interests at heart, but taht depends on what kind of galaxy you want.

Does the line :"Cerberus is humanity" ring a bell up there Knight?

Anyone who sees TIM as having human interests in his mind is a fool. He has his own agenda, his own plans, and they dont involve building a better future for humans. The UN for example tries to build  a better future, UNICEF, the REd Cross, and the Canadian School of Peacebuidling as well. While Cerberus has probably caused hundreds if not thousands of human deaths alone.

His plans do, you just don't agree with what kind of future he wants. I, for now, agree with him.

The Alliance and the Council let tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of humans die in the traverse and they did nothing. Cerberus on the otherhand acted and in doing so saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of humans.
Not to mention the technological advancements they bring. That fits serving human interests in my mind.

 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:30 .

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And the reason I mentioned an alternative reason to destroy it is because you said the only reason you had heard was 'I hate TIM!'

That's the biggest reason I have heard for destroying the base, yes... A minority doesn't want to use Reaper Tech.

I destroyed the base my first playthrough but kept it the second and my feelings about TIM (who I always thought was awesome) didn't really factor into it. I was a little worried about how people would react in ME3 but then I decided that I couldn't let the fact I didn't want party members/LI freaking out on me factor into such an important decision.

 No, my brother is an idiot because he's an idiot. He's the one I'm embarrassed to be related to, remember?  

Is he the reason you are nice to Trian? 

Until we have reason to believe that Trian is homophobic, barely believes in evolution, keeps us up all hours of the night playing PS3 Live with the volume cranked up and trashtalking all his friends, takes the fanclub he inexplicably has everywhere, never does anything around the house, goes through our room and takes things to put in his room, has never read the bible but takes it as literal truth, says 'noob sauce' (?) every five minutes, and chronically makes us pick him and his friends up from odd locations at 2 in the morning because otherwise they'll walk home and probably get themselves killed, I consider him an upgrade.

[Giggles_Manically]

Its kinda hard to see an intelligent view on someone who believes TIM on anything he says. Since in the next book he implants a living human being with reaper tech, some for his goals but also for revenge.



And Costin fool is one of the nicer things I can call people. Also get over yourself.

[Costin_Razvan]

Until we have reason to believe that Trian is homophobic, barely believes in evolution, keeps us up all hours of the night playing PS3 Live with the volume cranked up and trashtalking all his friends, takes the fanclub he inexplicably has everywhere, never does anything around the house, goes through our room and takes things to put in his room, has never read the bible but takes it as literal truth, says 'noob sauce' (?) every five minutes, and chronically makes us pick him and his friends up from odd locations at 2 in the morning because otherwise they'll walk home and probably get themselves killed, I consider him an upgrade.

I admit. I fell down from my chair laughing. I can see why you like Trian...

And Costin fool is one of the nicer things I can call people. Also get over yourself.

If you cannot have an intelligent discussion, and only use juvenile arguments then I simply suggest you shut up.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Its kinda hard to see an intelligent view on someone who believes TIM on anything he says.

If you don't, then there is nothing more to discuss.

I for one see some reasons that could be valid as to why someone would destroy the base, and I don't go around calling people fools for doing it, even though I disagree with that decision.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Its kinda hard to see an intelligent view on someone who believes TIM on anything he says. Since in the next book he implants a living human being with reaper tech, some for his goals but also for revenge.

I don't think humanity has much to fear from TIM. I mean, maybe some experiments but it's really the non-humans who should be more concerned as they aren't his priority. He's really a 'sacrifice the few for the good of the many' kind of guy.

[Giggles_Manically]

Just for clarification you all believe that its in the galaxies best interest to place humans in charge with TIM in charge of things, with a machine capable of turning people into reapers?



Why do so many people who play ME think that humans "deserve" the ability to come out on top. In history any group or people that tried to do that died, or was assimilated after failing. The Romans, Chinese, Indians, Mongols, the Egyptians, and dozens of others used this reasoning made many foes and fell. The sheer belief that a single species/group/people can sweep to a position of unapposed power for all time has happened throughout the course of human history and always ends poorly for them.



Fool is a harsh word, but believing that humans and Cerberus should rule overall and enforce their laws is well foolish.

[Sarah1281]

Just for clarification you all believe that its in the galaxies best interest to place humans in charge with TIM in charge of things, with a machine capable of turning people into reapers?

Who's talking about the galaxy? Humanity being in charge could very well be in HUMANITY'S best interest. It's not a moral argument but one about self-interest. Shepard is a human and therefore humanity's best interest is often going to be her best interest. How far you take that will vary, of course.

[KnightofPhoenix]

And that's a cycle that will always exist. Humanity gets on top, because it can. It falls and someone else takes its place. History is beautiful because of that and intellectual evolution was based on it. Why stop? Who do we remember now? Do we remember the small tribes and nations that accepted their weak status? Or those who sought to have more? Whom do we owe most of our knowledge and advancements?

If one can become a superpower, then they "deserve" it by default.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And that's a cycle that will always exist. Humanity gets on top, because it can. It falls and someone else takes its place. History is beautiful because of that and intellectual evolution was based on it. Why stop? Who do we remember now? Do we remember the small tribes and nations that accepted their weak status? Or those who sought to have more? Whom do we owe most of our knowledge and advancements?
If one can become a superpower, then they "deserve" it by default.

Strangely enough Russia thought this, and said those 'little' countries around its borders wont do anything. Yet because of this they almost every month deal with suicide bombers and terrorist attacks. Read about the Beslan School siege and imagine that amplified a million times and try to see how that will help humanity.

The theory that all history is a struggle is correct, and will remain that way sadly since humans in a group or an evil, violent, greedy bunch. If no one tries to change it that is. Thats why I think the UN is good, and while the Council is stupid, and annoying they have kept three of the largest groups talking and avoiding conflict with the other and their client states.

While strength and power are impressive the ability to talk and form bonds that last should be a groups goal.
Which is why Anderson is awsome since at one time he defends shep and humans, yet gets respect for building ties and trade.

[Giggles_Manically]

Oh I found the term I was looking for:



Imperialism, as defined by The Dictionary of Human Geography, is "the creation and maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural and territorial relationship, usually between states and often in the form of an empire, based on domination and subordination." Imperialism has been described as a primarily western concept that employs "expansionist – mercantilist and latterly communist – systems



After reading that I am sticking with a unified front over a pro-human front since imperialism still marks the world and politics to today.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Because you think human empires didn't espouse trade and didn't build ties? You would be wrong.

And yes of course "changing humanity". I am sure smeone as knowledgeable of history as you would know how all idealogies that sought to create this "new man" oh so deliciously proved how wrong and contradictory they are. And the UN? Ha, forgive me if I am not seeing the messiah in it.

As a subscirber to the Realist school of thought, I believe interntional relations is founded on Anarchy and that the only reason human civilisations sought to have more was because of a simple thing. "If we don't, someone else will and then we are screwed. So might as well be us". And that was the driving force behind our history and I do not want it to change.

[KnightofPhoenix]

And I do not mind imperialism. Of course my people today whine about it, but I know we were once imperialists in our golden age.

[Costin_Razvan]

"If we don't, someone else will and then we are screwed. So might as well be us". And that was the driving force behind our history and I do not want it to change.

Neither do I. I give the base to Cerberus knowing it will be used to improve Humanity's power on the Galactic stage. I could care less what experiments they do to achieve this If you are expecting me to shed a tear for either Jack or David, then you are mistaken. I don't care in the slightest about those 2 + Toombs.



I believe in the system of the Council though. But I also know what is behind the Council. The STG, the Asari Commandos, and the Turian Agents. Anyone who feels those 3 groups are any different from Cerberus is just ignoring the facts.



I want Cerberus to be for humanity what those groups are their respective races. I don't want for humanity to become, what I would call, the Intergalactic USA but I do want to have a strong grip on the Council.



Simply put, I want humanity to be elevated to be equal in terms of political, military and economical power compared to the rest of the Council, anything more then that is really a bonus.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Because you think human empires didn't espouse trade and didn't build ties? You would be wrong.
And yes of course "changing humanity". I am sure smeone as knowledgeable of history as you would know how all idealogies that sought to create this "new man" oh so deliciously proved how wrong and contradictory they are. And the UN? Ha, forgive me if I am not seeing the messiah in it.
As a subscirber to the Realist school of thought, I believe interntional relations is founded on Anarchy and that the only reason human civilisations sought to have more was because of a simple thing. "If we don't, someone else will and then we are screwed. So might as well be us". And that was the driving force behind our history and I do not want it to change.

Two things:
In its early days before the US and other supernations on the Security Council gutted it, the UN was a capable group. Also the UN, WHO, and a united and equal group of nations, seeking a good end eradicated Smallpox one of the worlds worst diseases.

If we dont change then we will simply destroy our world and see our species end in a ball of violence. There will be no survivors. After a nuclear winter, mass plauges, starvation, and overconsumption are done earth will be dead, and our glorious species will only be a fossil record. THat is not How I want it to end, do you?

[Costin_Razvan]

If we dont change then we will simply destroy our world and see our species end in a ball of violence. There will be no survivors. After a nuclear winter, mass plauges, starvation, and overconsumption are done earth will be dead, and our glorious species will only be a fossil record. THat is not How I want it to end, do you?

Almost 2.000 years of constant war ( cold war included ) have not destroyed humanity, they have made us far stronger then we ever imagined.

[Sarah1281]

How capable could it be if it was that easily declawed?