11146 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenousBear]

Organized crime syndicates have some rules which keeps order within their ranks. One reason I could see the carta wanting to kill Leske is to send a message to the other lower ranking members of the carta that betraying the boss will cost you your life.

[Herr Uhl]

Caak7i wrote...

Organized crime syndicates have some rules which keeps order within their ranks. One reason I could see the carta wanting to kill Leske is to send a message to the other lower ranking members of the carta that betraying the boss will cost you your life.

The question is rather if it is preferable to die then or to gamble on that your old comrade could help you.

If he had family or something to protect, then fine. But he doesn't mention anything like that.

[RavenousBear]

I guess I am seeing the Carta too much like the old American Mafia. "Ratting" out to an authority figure or betraying your boss to the authorities was answered with a grisly death.

Modifié par Caak7i, 21 juillet 2010 - 11:55 .

[Corker]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Even LOGHAIN manages to find time to surrender before Alistair's like 'I don't care, this is for Duncan!'

As I said: Bad writing.

There is no reason for him to continue fighting once you have felled the whole carta but him.

Actually, there is. 

The Bandit Leader, Caladrius, Loghain, et al., fight until their own health meters run down to a certain level.  That triggers the switch to a dialogue scene.  It's a simple if-then conditional based only on one character's properties, not the conjunction of several.

You couldn't do that here.  You'd need to track *at least* Jarvia as well as Leske, and possibly *all* the Carta members.  Your conditional needs to track Jarvia's and Leske's health.

Now, you'd think (if JARVIA_DEAD == TRUE && LESKE_DEAD == FALSE) then (LESKE_SURRENDER) wouldn't be *so* hard, but I suspect it adds more complexity to the overall module coding and introduces new places for bugs to creep in.  (Just like you'd *think* it wouldn't be that hard to keep track of ALISTAIR_KING == FALSE but apparently it is.)

Modifié par Corker, 21 juillet 2010 - 11:56 .

[Sarah1281]

Caak7i wrote...

I guess I am seeing the Carta too much like the old American Mafia. "Ratting" out to an authority figure was answered with a grisly death.

So does singlehandedly trying to take down the group of people that just killed everyone else in the carta.

[soignee]

Caak7i wrote...

I think he should have considered at least surrendering. Seriously, I just butchered the entire carta base and from first hand experience he saw me gut the former carta boss. What do you think is going to happen Leske, especially since I have 3 other fighters on my side?

I am not expecting him to back me up during the reunion, but I think since you knew him for as a buddy, there should have been a persuade option to allow him to briefly fight for you. But then it is reality check that everyone is out for themselves in Dusttown.

Okay, my interpretation on this...

Dust Town is a shtty place. Pretty much. That right there is the TL:DR version, so you can stop now if you like.

My friend is a social worker for inner-city London schools. She deals with abused children, and when they are finally put into a safer enviroment they act out, trying to push boundaries to find where they can snap back to.

If all your life you are told you are scum, you're nothing, you shouldn't be born... Well, it's not something you can shrug off and put away when you're offered a way out of it. You're so used to being kicked down and for the next punch to come instead of a hand up that when kindness and chances are shown, you don't quite know what to do. As Gilsa's rather excellent illustration of Brosca!Mammy dearest shows, it's hard to escape, no matter what age you are.

The difference between Leske and your Brosca (this is an assumption, you may play a duster who never leaves Dust Town mentally) is that Leske doesn't know this, but you do. He's never left Dust Town so he doesn't know any better; the survival of the fittest attitude never quite leaves you, and Leske knows he's a bottom feeder, and has to do something about it. I always assume that he only approached Jarvia when he knew you had returned, so he had leverage.

Another analogy is the crab bucket. Distant family member comes into a windfall and moves out of the slums; they return not to a CONGRATULATIONS GOOD FOR YOU open embrace, but resentment and/or attempts to cling to their coattails. The toolset options with the Leske/Jarvia confrontation actually has a lot of angry bitterness from Leske's side if you pick certain conversation trees. He is not a happy nuglet you ****ed off to the surface.

The reason he doesn't accompany you, even if you beg? Jarvia is there. He's angry as you now represent everything he is not. Not much choice, really.

It's very hard to explain why mentally why some people put themselves down without any help from others. If Dust Town got organised, could they over throw the other castes and have their own vive revolution? I've often wondered what the snapping point was for "no more," with situations like that. There has to have been rebellions of dusers/casteless in the history of the caste system; it would only happen every 100 years or so, perhaps.

[/end ramblings on poverty and segregation]

*eta* As Eski mentioned, he's in a crime syndicate too; Jarvia's a scary betch

Modifié par soignee, 22 juillet 2010 - 12:09 .

[Sarah1281]

Corker wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Even LOGHAIN manages to find time to surrender before Alistair's like 'I don't care, this is for Duncan!'

As I said: Bad writing.

There is no reason for him to continue fighting once you have felled the whole carta but him.

Actually, there is. 

The Bandit Leader, Caladrius, Loghain, et al., fight until their own health meters run down to a certain level.  That triggers the switch to a dialogue scene.  It's a simple if-then conditional based only on one character's properties, not the conjunction of several.

You couldn't do that here.  You'd need to track *at least* Jarvia as well as Leske, and possibly *all* the Carta members.  Your conditional needs to track Jarvia's and Leske's health.

Now, you'd think (if JARVIA_DEAD == TRUE && LESKE_DEAD == FALSE) then (LESKE_SURRENDER) wouldn't be *so* hard, but I suspect it adds more complexity to the overall module coding and introduces new places for bugs to creep in.  (Just like you'd *think* it wouldn't be that hard to keep track of ALISTAIR_KING == FALSE but apparently it is.)

I don't think it would need to. I mean, just look at Howe. Yeah he ends up dying anyway but if you take him out first then he's still clinging to life once everyone else is gone. Or Zevran would probably be a better example. I'm sure you're not trying to keep the random elven assassin alive and yet you can still wake him up or kill him. Why not do the same for Leske? Programming-wise they've already managed it and I don't think I've heard anyone complaining they've had problems with Zevran's recruitment.

[Corker]

Oh, if you just wanted some dialogue before he croaks? Yeah, that could have been put in.

[Herr Uhl]

Corker wrote...

Oh, if you just wanted some dialogue before he croaks? Yeah, that could have been put in.

At least have something. That subplot just farts out, he was supposed to have been your best friend, he could at least have some last words.

Or having someone in the party actually acknowledging what happened.

And as to your earlier one, that is pretty much what I expected to be the reason.

[RavenousBear]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

I guess I am seeing the Carta too much like the old American Mafia. "Ratting" out to an authority figure was answered with a grisly death.

So does singlehandedly trying to take down the group of people that just killed everyone else in the carta.

Yep, which is why I think there should be a persuade option for him to at least surrender. However, as Soignee has pointed out, he resents you for leaving him in the dust while you escaped to the surface.

Dust town is only home he has ever known, I doubt he would be willing to head to the surface especially with the stories that they tell of dwarves falling through the sky. I assume he has been an enforcer for the carta for his entire life, so job opportunties on the surface would be limited if he has no other skills.

[Herr Uhl]

Caak7i wrote...

Yep, which is why I think there should be a persuade option for him to at least surrender. However, as Soignee has pointed out, he resents you for leaving him in the dust while you escaped to the surface.

Dust town is only home he has ever known, I doubt he would be willing to head to the surface especially with the stories that they tell of dwarves falling through the sky. I assume he has been an enforcer for the carta for his entire life, so job opportunties on the surface would be limited if he has no other skills.

That Soignee said that he resents you for it doesn't make it true. It is what she used for her fanfic. And even if he does dislike you for it (Which he does to a degree), should that be enough to want to kill you singlehandedly?

Against insurmountable odds?

[soignee]

It'sssss in toolset, Herr. TOOLSET DOESN'T LIE.

[Herr Uhl]

soignee wrote...

It'sssss in toolset, Herr. TOOLSET DOESN'T LIE.

They lie about some things. Like Alistair being 32.

I think that he does resent you for leaving, I get all that. But when everyone else is down and he is the only one left fighting it stops making sense.

[soignee]

Herr Uhl wrote...

soignee wrote...

It'sssss in toolset, Herr. TOOLSET DOESN'T LIE.

They lie about some things. Like Alistair being 32.

I think that he does resent you for leaving, I get all that. But when everyone else is down and he is the only one left fighting it stops making sense.

He still won't leave. Not if you beg. If, idk, he's out out of the fight by a mage spell and kept from harm until then... Nope. He'll keep himself down in Dust Town.

I can't explain properly why some people are happy with the boot at their throat, they just are =/

[RavenousBear]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Yep, which is why I think there should be a persuade option for him to at least surrender. However, as Soignee has pointed out, he resents you for leaving him in the dust while you escaped to the surface.

Dust town is only home he has ever known, I doubt he would be willing to head to the surface especially with the stories that they tell of dwarves falling through the sky. I assume he has been an enforcer for the carta for his entire life, so job opportunties on the surface would be limited if he has no other skills.

That Soignee said that he resents you for it doesn't make it true. It is what she used for her fanfic. And even if he does dislike you for it (Which he does to a degree), should that be enough to want to kill you singlehandedly?

Against insurmountable odds?

If I were in his shoes I would surrender, however the game does not implement that scenario. So he must have not liked you well enough to surrender when certain death was imminent.

I remember meeting him earlier before I headed to the base where I think he said he was laying low and knew little about the current carta's activities. If he truly was a friend, he should have at least warned you that the carta had laid an ambush in your old house.

[Herr Uhl]

soignee wrote...

He still won't leave. Not if you beg. If, idk, he's out out of the fight by a mage spell and kept from harm until then... Nope. He'll keep himself down in Dust Town.

I can't explain properly why some people are happy with the boot at their throat, they just are =/

I'm not talking about taking him with you, but as it comes out he seems to want you dead more than he wants to survive. Which makes no sense. That isn't resentment, that is blind hate.

[Sarah1281]

Caak7i wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Yep, which is why I think there should be a persuade option for him to at least surrender. However, as Soignee has pointed out, he resents you for leaving him in the dust while you escaped to the surface.

Dust town is only home he has ever known, I doubt he would be willing to head to the surface especially with the stories that they tell of dwarves falling through the sky. I assume he has been an enforcer for the carta for his entire life, so job opportunties on the surface would be limited if he has no other skills.

That Soignee said that he resents you for it doesn't make it true. It is what she used for her fanfic. And even if he does dislike you for it (Which he does to a degree), should that be enough to want to kill you singlehandedly?

Against insurmountable odds?

If I were in his shoes I would surrender, however the game does not implement that scenario. So he must have not liked you well enough to surrender when certain death was imminent.

I remember meeting him earlier before I headed to the base where I think he said he was laying low and knew little about the current carta's activities. If he truly was a friend, he should have at least warned you that the carta had laid an ambush in your old house.

If he was a true friend he wouldn't have freaking suggested it.

Although to be fair it is possible he figured you'd come down there to see it (perhaps even before finding out about Rica) and would know that it wasn't really a hideout for the carta.

[Patriciachr34]

I think you have to have the right mentality and a bit of courage to move from what you know to something you don't. Believe it or not, in the small, isolated town I grew up in there was an invisible social caste system. My husband actually picked up on this when I took him to meet my parents. There were the people who were in charge, received the opportunities, and were able to thrive in society. Then there were the rest of us. People without social connections and therefore no prospects for any future. Many of the people I knew that were part of the the "rest of us" accepted their place and are still living within the confines of this society. The very idea of leaving what they knew was simply too frightening. So they accepted. Even my mom thought that I was being uppity for wanting to go to college despite the fact that I was an A student. Us upstarts usually left and never looked back. Good riddance I say.

[RavenousBear]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Yep, which is why I think there should be a persuade option for him to at least surrender. However, as Soignee has pointed out, he resents you for leaving him in the dust while you escaped to the surface.

Dust town is only home he has ever known, I doubt he would be willing to head to the surface especially with the stories that they tell of dwarves falling through the sky. I assume he has been an enforcer for the carta for his entire life, so job opportunties on the surface would be limited if he has no other skills.

That Soignee said that he resents you for it doesn't make it true. It is what she used for her fanfic. And even if he does dislike you for it (Which he does to a degree), should that be enough to want to kill you singlehandedly?

Against insurmountable odds?

If I were in his shoes I would surrender, however the game does not implement that scenario. So he must have not liked you well enough to surrender when certain death was imminent.

I remember meeting him earlier before I headed to the base where I think he said he was laying low and knew little about the current carta's activities. If he truly was a friend, he should have at least warned you that the carta had laid an ambush in your old house.

If he was a true friend he wouldn't have freaking suggested it.

Although to be fair it is possible he figured you'd come down there to see it (perhaps even before finding out about Rica) and would know that it wasn't really a hideout for the carta.

My memory has failed me again. I am going to have memory issues when I get old. To be fair, that was 8 months ago when that encounter occured in my game, so I deserve a pass.

Modifié par Caak7i, 22 juillet 2010 - 12:34 .

[soignee]

Patriciachr34 wrote...

I think you have to have the right mentality and a bit of courage to move from what you know to something you don't. .

^This.

[Herr Uhl]

Patriciachr34 wrote...

I think you have to have the right mentality and a bit of courage to move from what you know to something you don't. Believe it or not, in the small, isolated town I grew up in there was an invisible social caste system. My husband actually picked up on this when I took him to meet my parents. There were the people who were in charge, received the opportunities, and were able to thrive in society. Then there were the rest of us. People without social connections and therefore no prospects for any future. Many of the people I knew that were part of the the "rest of us" accepted their place and are still living within the confines of this society. The very idea of leaving what they knew was simply too frightening. So they accepted. Even my mom thought that I was being uppity for wanting to go to college despite the fact that I was an A student. Us upstarts usually left and never looked back. Good riddance I say.

Encountered the same attitude when moving out. My little click of the family (me, elder brother and mother) are the only ones amongst my relatives who got an education past high school. And when I and brother moved to cities there were the old "not good enough for ya" talks. Granted, most of them are intensely boring to talk to so I don't care.

[Sarah1281]

That's what my parents had to go through when they moved away from a tiny little town in Indiana where everybody knows everybody, no one has internet (and if they do it's freaking dial-up which you might as well not even bother with), and a Super Target made the front page of their newspaper.



And then where I live our guidance councilors acutally had to remind us that college was optional.

[soignee]

when my ma gave birth to me there was no internets, they had to make do with four channels on the TV and SHELLSUITS.



**** I feel old thanks sarah

[Patriciachr34]

My guidance counselor never talked to me. He thought it was a waste of his time. I think one of these days I'll mail him my masters degree and include a note, "Don't you wish you would have cared?"

[Herr Uhl]

soignee wrote...

when my ma gave birth to me there was no internets, they had to make do with four channels on the TV and SHELLSUITS.

**** I feel old thanks sarah

I'm only 1 year older, and that was the case for me as well. I think that she is talking about now though.