11146 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

sleepingbelow wrote...

sex-ism n.
1.Discrimination based on gender, especially discriminationagainst women
2.Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotypingof social roles based on gender.

Sten: Women are priests, artisans, farmers or shopkeepers. None of them have any place in fighting.

It is good to know what words mean.

Yes, but does this take into consideration that they can have different physiology. We have yet to even see a Qunari woman, if they are built like, lets say elves, is it that weird that they don't get used as warriors? Is it then based on gender or simply how apt you are?

And yes, I do know what words mean, thankyouverymuch.

[thegreateski]

Wut doz dose werds meen?

[sleepingbelow]

I think the point is that, yes, it is sexist because it enforces limited social roles based on physical gender. It is also oppressive because in a society governed by the Qun, no, you can't deviate from it, even if you want to. It is oppressive and sexist. That is just what those words mean. It doesn't matter if the Qunari argue about values.

And I imagine if you are woman, and don't want to be one of those things, you would consider another system better.

[Herr Uhl]

sleepingbelow wrote...

I think the point is that, yes, it is sexist because it enforces limited social roles based on physical gender. It is also oppressive because in a society governed by the Qun, no, you can't deviate from it, even if you want to. It is oppressive and sexist. That is just what those words mean. It doesn't matter if the Qunari argue about values.
And I imagine if you are woman, and don't want to be one of those things, you would consider another system better.

You don't choose anything, regardless of gender. It's extremely oppressive, that I grant you, but until we know more I wouldn't call it sexist.

[Radahldo]

what do you mean by child raising? What change would that be?

[KnightofPhoenix]

sleepingbelow wrote...

I think the point is that, yes, it is sexist because it enforces limited social roles based on physical gender. It is also oppressive because in a society governed by the Qun, no, you can't deviate from it, even if you want to. It is oppressive and sexist. That is just what those words mean. It doesn't matter if the Qunari argue about values.
And I imagine if you are woman, and don't want to be one of those things, you would consider another system better.

This is valid for even men. If the system is oppressive, it is for both genders and is not specifically targetted against women.
If the system allowed men to do whatever they want, but not women, then it would be sexist in an oppressive way. But from what we know, its "oppression" is not founded on sexism and vfice versa. Two seperate aspects of the Qun. 

If I was a female Qun, I would probably not have any idea about other systems, so will be satisfied.  

[sleepingbelow]

Herr Uhl wrote...
And yes, I do know what words mean, thankyouverymuch.

Sten: That has yet to be proven.

Herr Uhl wrote...
It's extremely oppressive, that I grant you, but until we know more I wouldn't call it sexist.

/facepalm

[Gilsa]

Just sent request to cypher about thread title change.



Back to the Qun.

[thegreateski]

Radahldo wrote...

what do you mean by child raising? What change would that be?

In Qunari society the children are raised by the priests.

I would simply change it to having their parents raise them.

Modifié par thegreateski, 30 avril 2010 - 01:21 .

[Herr Uhl]

sleepingbelow wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
It's extremely oppressive, that I grant you, but until we know more I wouldn't call it sexist.

/facepalm

Sexual dimorphism is new to you? If it isn't based on that they are women, but on they being less apt, I fail to see how it is sexist.

That Sten then takes for granted that women can't be warriors may be because it the word male genus in Qunari tongue.

[sleepingbelow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This is valid for even men. If the system is oppressive, it is for both genders and is not specifically targetted against women.
If the system allowed men to do whatever they want, but not women, then it would be sexist in an oppressive way. But from what we know, its "oppression" is not founded on sexism and vfice versa. Two seperate aspects of the Qun. 

If I was a female Qun, I would probably not have any idea about other systems, so will be satisfied.  

That's the way sexism works.  Sexism affects men as well in the real world if we want to deviate from gender norms.

And yes, oppression and sexism are different things.  Both are found in the Qun.  I'm not all like, "Boo, Qun!  I hate brown giants!"  I'm just saying, it is those two things.

[thegreateski]

Herr Uhl wrote...

sleepingbelow wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
It's extremely oppressive, that I grant you, but until we know more I wouldn't call it sexist.

/facepalm

Sexual dimorphism is new to you? If it isn't based on that they are women, but on they being less apt, I fail to see how it is sexist.

That Sten then takes for granted that women can't be warriors may be because it the word male genus in Qunari tongue.

This is true . . . I fear we have crossed into the waters of "no lore has been written about this".

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nevermind.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 avril 2010 - 01:23 .

[thegreateski]

Curse you David Gaider! Curse you and your paper thin Qunari lore!

[Aisynia]

sleepingbelow wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

This is valid for even men. If the system is oppressive, it is for both genders and is not specifically targetted against women.
If the system allowed men to do whatever they want, but not women, then it would be sexist in an oppressive way. But from what we know, its "oppression" is not founded on sexism and vfice versa. Two seperate aspects of the Qun. 

If I was a female Qun, I would probably not have any idea about other systems, so will be satisfied.  

That's the way sexism works.  Sexism affects men as well in the real world if we want to deviate from gender norms.

And yes, oppression and sexism are different things.  Both are found in the Qun.  I'm not all like, "Boo, Qun!  I hate brown giants!"  I'm just saying, it is those two things.

Yeah, it really is.

Some things were mentioned about size above. Sten never mentions your size, he mentions what's between your legs and how it makes no sense to him that a female can be fighting. I am very short, and I don't weigh a lot, but after being raped, I trained in kickboxing. I wouldn't expect to overpower any man in a grapple, but I truly pity the moron who tries to take advantage of me again.

If their females are 4 feet high and skinny it wouldn't matter, not whne City Elf females are barely taller, and the dwarf females are showing the world what stout folk can do.

It was pretty obvious to me it wasn't something specific to his race though. If, for instance, Qunari women are small, weak, and have brittle bones, it might be odd for ANYONE to see them in a fighting profession.. but that's not what is coloring his vision.

You have a vagina and can bear children, therefore, you cannot be a warrior.

That is sexist, as it is that men cannot, under the Qun, apparently be priests or other things, for any reason. It's not just sexist either, it's terribly oppressive in its sexism (and everything else). You are born into a role in Qunari society, and unlike Dwarven society, there is NO chance to ever rise above your station by aspiring to do something great (paragons). You are who you are and if you don't like it, tough ****.

[Herr Uhl]

thegreateski wrote...

Curse you David Gaider! Curse you and your paper thin Qunari lore!

No, It's Mary Kirby, the awesomest of the writers.

They have Qunari lore, but it isn't released to us.

[Radahldo]

What was your Dwarfs motivation to accompany Sten to Par Vollen?

[thegreateski]

Herr Uhl wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Curse you David Gaider! Curse you and your paper thin Qunari lore!

No, It's Mary Kirby, the awesomest of the writers.

They have Qunari lore, but it isn't released to us.

*Ahem*

Curse you Mary Kirby! Curse you and your paper thin Qunari lore!

[thegreateski]

Radahldo wrote...

What was your Dwarfs motivation to accompany Sten to Par Vollen?

Why?

Why not?

[sleepingbelow]

Herr Uhl wrote...
You don't choose anything, regardless of gender. It's extremely oppressive, that I grant you, but until we know more I wouldn't call it sexist.

Seriously, I don't know what magic definition of sexism you're using.  Unless Sten is lying, one of the things that designates your role is your physical sex instead of aptitude.  It doesn't matter that it is a new concept for Sten.

Herr Uhl wrote...
Sexual dimorphism is new to you? If it isn't based on that they are women, but on they being less apt, I fail to see how it is sexist.

wut.  All of the pertinent conversations with Sten are sparked by him seeing an apt practitioner that is outside of his gender norms.

Also, irrelevant non-sequitor is irrelevant.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 30 avril 2010 - 01:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aisynia wrote...
You have a vagina and can bear children, therefore, you cannot be a warrior.

And logically, that does make a lot of sense. And it's not based on the capacity of women.

Why? Because women are more necessary for reproduction than males. How?  Because a male can impregnate multiple women and at any time he wishes. Women can only be impregnated once every 9 months.

So, if a thousand men, from a tribe with 1000 women, were sent to battle and only 100 survive, they will still be able to give birth to 1000 kids, because no woman was killed in battle.
If women were sent, and 500 of them survive, then the tribe can only give birth to 500 kids (baring the probability of twins).

The idea of protecting women for the sake of reproduction and forbid them to fight, while sexist, is not necessarily a bad thing. And can in fact, make a lot of sense.

[Radahldo]

Why?



Why not?

I guess so.

[Aisynia]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aisynia wrote...
You have a vagina and can bear children, therefore, you cannot be a warrior.

And logically, that does make a lot of sense. And it's not based on the capacity of women.

Why?
Because women are more necessary for reproduction than males. How? 
Because a male can impregnate multiple women and at any time he wishes.
Women can only be impregnated once every 9 months.

So, if a
thousand men, from a tribe with 1000 women, were sent to battle and
only 100 survive, they will still be able to give birth to 1000 kids,
because no woman was killed in battle.
If women were sent, and 500 of them survive, then the tribe can only give birth to 500 kids (baring the probability of twins).

The
idea of protecting women for the sake of reproduction and forbid them
to fight, while sexist, is not necessarily a bad thing. And can in
fact, make a lot of sense.

Logical sure, but that doesn't prevent my overwhelming desire to hit you in the head right now. I hope you're okay with that.

Modifié par Aisynia, 30 avril 2010 - 01:32 .

[Radahldo]

thegreatski wrote..

Why?



Why not?

I mean, what if they are rude and step on you like Sten does to Oghren?

That would be very real concern for my Dwarf.

[thegreateski]

Aisynia wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aisynia wrote...
You have a vagina and can bear children, therefore, you cannot be a warrior.

And logically, that does make a lot of sense. And it's not based on the capacity of women.

Why?
Because women are more necessary for reproduction than males. How? 
Because a male can impregnate multiple women and at any time he wishes.
Women can only be impregnated once every 9 months.

So, if a
thousand men, from a tribe with 1000 women, were sent to battle and
only 100 survive, they will still be able to give birth to 1000 kids,
because no woman was killed in battle.
If women were sent, and 500 of them survive, then the tribe can only give birth to 500 kids (baring the probability of twins).

The
idea of protecting women for the sake of reproduction and forbid them
to fight, while sexist, is not necessarily a bad thing. And can in
fact, make a lot of sense.

Logical sure, but that doesn't prevent my overwhelming desire to hit you in the head right now. I hope you're okay with that.

We both are.

also lets take into account the fact that the Qunari are constantly at war with the Tevinter Imperium, much like how the Dwarfs are constantly at war with the Darkspawn.