59 réponses à ce sujet

[Tinnic]

I have just finished reading the Stolen Throne and The Calling (great books by the way, I wager enjoyable by all lovers of fantasy and not just fans of Dragon Age - should probably be made into movies by Peter Jackson!) and I am overcome with an overwhelming desire to punch Loghain in the face!

Honestly, the next time I here him say to Alistair "I see nothing of Maric in him" I'll probably end up breaking my TV! Alistair exactly like Maric! Either Loghain is blind or the years since his friends death has made him forget what his friend was really like!

Anyone else found that? 

[wowpwnslol]

You can do better than that: you can cut off his head.

[WARDEN9652]

 man i really want to read these books, went to my local bookstore today to at least get the stolen throne, but guess what they dont have it, go figure:bandit:


edit: loghain is to epic to punch in the face, so what if he may suffer from amnesia, he's old =p

Modifié par WARDEN9652, 03 avril 2010 - 07:18 .

[Tinnic]

wowpwnslol wrote...

You can do better than that: you can cut off his head.

Yeah but you can't cut off his head when he's bad mouthing Alistair. Wish we had a dialogue option to stand up for Alistair. Not to mention that I have always wanted to tell Ser Cauthrien to shut up and call her a "pasty faced boot licker" when she tells me not to interrupt my betters >.<

That does it, I am going to replay my save just before the Landsmeet and savour killing Loghain!

WARDEN9652 wrote...

 man i really want to read these books, went to my local bookstore today to at least get the stolen throne, but guess what they dont have it, go figure:bandit:


edit: loghain is to epic to punch in the face, so what if he may suffer from amnesia, he's old =p

The books were great. Much better then the Mass Effect books, which are the only other books I read based on a fantasy universe created for a game. I honestly believe that anyone who enjoys fantasy would enjoy the books. Even if they were, totally anti video games and/or never heard of Dragon Age.

[Domyk]

Kick him where it hurts most... the nads

[Dargar21]

I wish there were options in the game which are like what you could potentially do to Isolde.

[shedevil3001]

WARDEN9652 wrote...

 man i really want to read these books, went to my local bookstore today to at least get the stolen throne, but guess what they dont have it, go figure:bandit:


edit: loghain is to epic to punch in the face, so what if he may suffer from amnesia, he's old =p

ebay or play.com have the books thats where i got mine and i cant wait to see if gaider will write more


i hate loghain too kill him every time as i think hes just too annoying to let live and nothing he says justifies what he's done

Modifié par shedevil3001, 03 avril 2010 - 10:10 .

[WARDEN9652]

^^ i know there are sites that have them, there is just no way i can buy one from one of those sites, because no credit card or any other sort of equivalent, and you cant use cash

[Viglin]

Tinnic wrote...

I have just finished reading the Stolen Throne and The Calling (great books by the way, I wager enjoyable by all lovers of fantasy and not just fans of Dragon Age - should probably be made into movies by Peter Jackson!) and I am overcome with an overwhelming desire to punch Loghain in the face!

Honestly, the next time I here him say to Alistair "I see nothing of Maric in him" I'll probably end up breaking my TV! Alistair exactly like Maric! Either Loghain is blind or the years since his friends death has made him forget what his friend was really like!

Anyone else found that? 

I dont recall Maric moaning about his murdered mother[right before his eyes], as much as Wimp boy crying over Duncan...someone he only knew for what, a year or so?

I do recall how Maric went about, and finally got his revenge thou....and not just for his murdered mother.

Who deserves that punch again?

[astrallite]

If Loghain was handsome with a suave voice you would all be saying how badass he was. It's easy to hate him because he looks like insecure douche bag.

Loghain is such a overwhelming caricature of a villain he may as well paint his face like the Joker. At least Sarevok from Baldur's Gate, when outside of his "I am so evil monster armor", is a regal and a well-spoken individual. It's kind of hard to keep a straight face when the villain is basically advertising himself with a billboard.

Modifié par astrallite, 03 avril 2010 - 11:01 .

[Wishpig]

Gotta disagree. The books gave me a whole different view of Loghain, rather then seeing him as a d***, I saw him as a very tragic character who was forced his whole life to make lose-lose decisions for the slightly better good. After making the right choices his entire life, he made one really really really bad choice (albeit for the right reasons.)

As far as Maric and Alistair goes... I'm pretty sure Loghain was thinking of King Maric. The Maric at the end of the Stolen Throne who was not afraid to be cold hearted, make tough decsions, and be brutal and unforgiving when he needed to be. I can def see where Loghain was coming from with that statement and would even agree.

astrallite wrote...
Loghain is such a
overwhelming caricature of a villain he may as well paint his face like
the Joker. At least Sarevok from Baldur's Gate, when outside of his "I
am so evil monster armor", is a regal and a well-spoken individual.
It's kind of hard to keep a straight face when the villain is basically
advertising himself with a billboard.

Seriously??? I take it you didn't read the book. I dunno if I would even call Loghain a strait up villian... he is a very deep character. For instance, if he's in your group with dog it leads to some VERY touching moments.

Modifié par Wishpig, 03 avril 2010 - 11:05 .

[astrallite]

Oh, okay. So everyone in the world got a glimpse of Loghain and dog right? I didn't realize there was a "Loghain and dog" reality TV show.

[RobUnreal]

astrallite wrote...
Loghain is such a
overwhelming caricature of a villain he may as well paint his face like
the Joker. At least Sarevok from Baldur's Gate, when outside of his "I
am so evil monster armor", is a regal and a well-spoken individual.
It's kind of hard to keep a straight face when the villain is basically
advertising himself with a billboard.

Seriously??? I take it you didn't read the book. I dunno if I would even call Loghain a strait up villian... he is a very deep character. For instance, if he's in your group with dog it leads to some VERY touching moments.

I agree, I wouldn't call Loghain a villain, just a morally ambiguous character.  Very much akin to a tragic hero, and like all tragic heroes he has his fatal flaws.

He admits having a lot to atone for at the end of Origins, and goes on to be a rather worthy Grey Warden if he lives through the final battle.

[Kwanzaabot]

Pfft. Why punch him or cut off his head when you can make him suffer with Blood Magic™?

[Feraele]

Tinnic wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

You can do better than that: you can cut off his head.

Yeah but you can't cut off his head when he's bad mouthing Alistair. Wish we had a dialogue option to stand up for Alistair. Not to mention that I have always wanted to tell Ser Cauthrien to shut up and call her a "pasty faced boot licker" when she tells me not to interrupt my betters >.<

That does it, I am going to replay my save just before the Landsmeet and savour killing Loghain!

WARDEN9652 wrote...

 man i really want to read these books, went to my local bookstore today to at least get the stolen throne, but guess what they dont have it, go figure:bandit:


edit: loghain is to epic to punch in the face, so what if he may suffer from amnesia, he's old =p

The books were great. Much better then the Mass Effect books, which are the only other books I read based on a fantasy universe created for a game. I honestly believe that anyone who enjoys fantasy would enjoy the books. Even if they were, totally anti video games and/or never heard of Dragon Age.

I think Ser Cauthrien's problem is undying hero worship...she's probably "in love" with Loghain, so it affects her common sense.    I still like killing her at Landsmeet, however....

Also note..when she says.."Don't interrupt your betters, CHURL"....which is basically her calling you a peasant.  

Modifié par Feraele, 04 avril 2010 - 05:55 .

[Walina]

Incredible how people still see in him a hero and lovelable character after all his done in DAO >_> I guess anyone can even love the mafia.

[Tokion]

I have nothing but respect for Loghain, especially if you have read the book. He is a strategic man, some king who 'loves to play hero' but with little knowledge of real battle will doom the kingdom in the end.



The warden's story of 'proving him wrong' is the main plot of DA:O. And the events leading to the landsmeet is what makes the story in DA:O compelling and drives the player to united the kingdom as a whole. But do you really want to kill the greatest general of ferelden of its time just for the sake of petty revenge?

[Mlai00]

Some heroes can only be heroes once. After their 15 minutes of glory is done, they need to retire or die. See Beowulf.

Loghain was a man of his time, and he never left it behind. Which caused him to make some tragically flawed decisions in the present day.

[yeoldearche]

After reading both books, I actually think Loghain is one of my favorite characters in the novels and the game.


**SPOILERS**


Seriously--aside from his out of character moment where he killed that "fat man" bann at Gwaren--he was a far more interesting and compelling character than Maric. He's had to put up with: his mother being raped and killed, living in absolute fear of the foreign occupiers (who are completely cruel... for no real reason other than giving the readers a people/nation to despise), and meeting this young blonde kid who is followed by the Orlesians after which they bring the hammer down on his "people" and killing his father.

Loghain at least is a realist and incredibly passionate about things, whereas Maric is a Mary-Sue who can succeed at almost anything he does (once he gets over his self-esteem issues), has some sorta god-given luck that is repeatedly lampshaded in both books, and everyone seems to love without him having to actually do anything of substance.

Making him go through the Joining in the game only makes me like him that much more than either Maric or Alistair.

Modifié par yeoldearche, 04 avril 2010 - 11:26 .

[Tinnic]

Viglin wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

I have just finished reading the Stolen Throne and The Calling (great books by the way, I wager enjoyable by all lovers of fantasy and not just fans of Dragon Age - should probably be made into movies by Peter Jackson!) and I am overcome with an overwhelming desire to punch Loghain in the face!

Honestly, the next time I here him say to Alistair "I see nothing of Maric in him" I'll probably end up breaking my TV! Alistair exactly like Maric! Either Loghain is blind or the years since his friends death has made him forget what his friend was really like!

Anyone else found that? 

I dont recall Maric moaning about his murdered mother[right before his eyes], as much as Wimp boy crying over Duncan...someone he only knew for what, a year or so?

I do recall how Maric went about, and finally got his revenge thou....and not just for his murdered mother.

Who deserves that punch again?

I am sorry, Alistair behaved exactly like Maric. He most certainly does not deserve a punch and Maric was just as angry about his mother dying THREE YEARS after she was murdered. There is some timeline issue going on here. Depending on how frequently you talk to him, Alistair's "I am upset over Duncan's death" thing is over pretty quickly. Unless you spent 1 year in the Kovari Wilds, it pretty much means he get's over Duncan's death in a couple of months.

You have to give him a couple of months to mourn. Especially when he, unlike Maric, didn't have the most loving childhood. Arl Eamon was good to him but then sent him to the chantry, a place he hated, because Alistair had become inconvenient. Alistair knew/believed that he was not living with his father because he was inconvenient. He didn't feel like he belonged with the Templers. The first place he really belonged, where he was really wanted was the Grey Wardens and then Loghain took it away from him. I think Alistair's reactions and behaviours are perfectly understandable in the light of things.

Let me put it this way, Maric grew-up hearing "You are the light of my life and I believe in you" from his mother. Alistair grew-up hearing "You are in the way, so you have to go somewhere else" until Duncan came and got him. Makes a HUGE difference to a person's life, such a different childhood.

Also, I am not denying that Loghain is an interesting character and I do like him more now then I did before I read the books. However, I still want to punch him because he does everything in the memory of Maric. He even puts Feraldan first because Maric told him to put Feraldan first, even before Maric himself and then Maric incarnate walks upto him and he goes "I see nothing of Maric in him"  Dude! Have you met Alistair!

I mean, I think we can all agree that between Calain and Alistair, Alistair is more like Maric and is the better king. Actually, hardened Alistiar is probably the best king out of them all.

[yeoldearche]

Tinnic wrote...

Also, I am not denying that Loghain is an interesting character and I do like him more now then I did before I read the books. However, I still want to punch him because he does everything in the memory of Maric. He even puts Feraldan first because Maric told him to put Feraldan first, even before Maric himself and then Maric incarnate walks upto him and he goes "I see nothing of Maric in him"  Dude! Have you met Alistair!

To be fair, Loghain never met Alistair before the Landsmeet (except for maybe when Maric revealed to him about the baby, and when they decided to give him up to Eamon). And Loghain isn't being disingenuous with his doubts of Alistair's aptitude at being king. At least unhardened Alistair. He states that Alistair's had no experience with politics, governing, or diplomacy and he "doesn't strike me as a talented amateur". Which Alistair isn't without Anora and unhardened. He goes on to say that the nobles will play him for their own gain, leaving the throne powerless and useless.

That said, I used to despise Alistair's character in the game... then I read the books, and I realized whose genes he inherited. Now I've grown to like him a little more considering he has a Mary Sue heritage. His behavior when you let Loghain live keeps me from truly liking him still.

[Tokion]

The fact that 'if' you let Loghain live and see the whiny side of Alistair, abandoning his duty as a warden and 'getting drunk' makes me want to save Loghain more than ever and give him a chance for redemption.

But Loghain's comments on the events of the Return to ostagar saying that he wants to leave Cailen to the wolves was really out of character of him. Especially infront of the main character.

Modifié par Tokion, 04 avril 2010 - 12:28 .

[fangedwolf]

After reading the books, I actually saw Loghain in a better light, knowing his background and all. His actions made way more sense than before.



I do admit though that some of the comments and stuff he had been saying in regards to Maric were total balls though. I think that over time his memory of Maric, like anyone remembering someone dead, became better. However because of the way Loghain's character is, this artistic licence would have painted Maric as more like having characteristics of himself, rather than remembering all the times that he was overly kind to others. This would explain why Loghain spoke about Maric disapproving of things, when in fact it was just him that did. Also, because Loghain forced Maric to 'face up to harsh realities', it would make himself feel less guilty about doing so. It is easier to think that Maric always was 'hardened' and practical, than remembering that it was himself who betrayed Maric's trust in forcing him to for the good of the country.

[Tinnic]

yeoldearche wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

Also, I am not denying that Loghain is an interesting character and I do like him more now then I did before I read the books. However, I still want to punch him because he does everything in the memory of Maric. He even puts Feraldan first because Maric told him to put Feraldan first, even before Maric himself and then Maric incarnate walks upto him and he goes "I see nothing of Maric in him"  Dude! Have you met Alistair!

To be fair, Loghain never met Alistair before the Landsmeet (except for maybe when Maric revealed to him about the baby, and when they decided to give him up to Eamon). And Loghain isn't being disingenuous with his doubts of Alistair's aptitude at being king. At least unhardened Alistair. He states that Alistair's had no experience with politics, governing, or diplomacy and he "doesn't strike me as a talented amateur". Which Alistair isn't without Anora and unhardened. He goes on to say that the nobles will play him for their own gain, leaving the throne powerless and useless.

That said, I used to despise Alistair's character in the game... then I read the books, and I realized whose genes he inherited. Now I've grown to like him a little more considering he has a Mary Sue heritage. His behavior when you let Loghain live keeps me from truly liking him still.

Actually, if I recall correctly, Alistair makes a much beloved king hardened, unhardened, with or without Anora. In addition, if I recall properly Loghain used to run the country for Maric most of the time as well. Which brings me to my point that Alistair is exactly like his father but Loghain just can't see it. Which, of course, as you said, is not without basis. But doesn't mean it doesn't annoy me.

Tokion wrote...

The fact that 'if' you let Loghain live and see the whiny side of Alistair, abandoning his duty as a warden and 'getting drunk' makes me want to save Loghain more than ever and give him a chance for redemption.

But Loghain's comments on the events of the Return to ostagar saying that he wants to leave Cailen to the wolves was really out of character of him. Especially infront of the main character.

Now that's really unfair! Siding with Loghain is basically betraying Alistair totally and utterly. Not only that but it also puts his life in danger. After Alistair lost everything, and the grey wardens were everything to him, all he really has left is the PC and then the PC goes and sides with Loghain! Of course it would just break him! Indeed, it would be far more unbelievable had Alistair just accepted the decision and no Loghain leaving Calain to the wolves is exactly like him. He hated Calain. Loghain is not kiind of people he hates.

[Wishpig]

Tinnic wrote...

yeoldearche wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

Also, I am not denying that Loghain is an interesting character and I do like him more now then I did before I read the books. However, I still want to punch him because he does everything in the memory of Maric. He even puts Feraldan first because Maric told him to put Feraldan first, even before Maric himself and then Maric incarnate walks upto him and he goes "I see nothing of Maric in him"  Dude! Have you met Alistair!

To be fair, Loghain never met Alistair before the Landsmeet (except for maybe when Maric revealed to him about the baby, and when they decided to give him up to Eamon). And Loghain isn't being disingenuous with his doubts of Alistair's aptitude at being king. At least unhardened Alistair. He states that Alistair's had no experience with politics, governing, or diplomacy and he "doesn't strike me as a talented amateur". Which Alistair isn't without Anora and unhardened. He goes on to say that the nobles will play him for their own gain, leaving the throne powerless and useless.

That said, I used to despise Alistair's character in the game... then I read the books, and I realized whose genes he inherited. Now I've grown to like him a little more considering he has a Mary Sue heritage. His behavior when you let Loghain live keeps me from truly liking him still.

Actually, if I recall correctly, Alistair makes a much beloved king hardened, unhardened, with or without Anora. In addition, if I recall properly Loghain used to run the country for Maric most of the time as well. Which brings me to my point that Alistair is exactly like his father but Loghain just can't see it. Which, of course, as you said, is not without basis. But doesn't mean it doesn't annoy me.

Tokion wrote...

The fact that 'if' you let Loghain live and see the whiny side of Alistair, abandoning his duty as a warden and 'getting drunk' makes me want to save Loghain more than ever and give him a chance for redemption.

But Loghain's comments on the events of the Return to ostagar saying that he wants to leave Cailen to the wolves was really out of character of him. Especially infront of the main character.

Now that's really unfair! Siding with Loghain is basically betraying Alistair totally and utterly. Not only that but it also puts his life in danger. After Alistair lost everything, and the grey wardens were everything to him, all he really has left is the PC and then the PC goes and sides with Loghain! Of course it would just break him! Indeed, it would be far more unbelievable had Alistair just accepted the decision and no Loghain leaving Calain to the wolves is exactly like him. He hated Calain. Loghain is not kiind of people he hates.

A. Alistair is NOT like Maric. Younger Maric, was light-hearted, brave, and besides being far more responsible then Alistair... yeah, I can see how young Maric and Alistair shared many simularities. But Loghain was prob not refering to young Maric, rather he was refering to Maric after the end of Stolen Throne's events. By the end of Stolen Throne Maric was much colder, hell, he was downright brutal and ruthless when he had to be. Thats nothing like Alistair.

Personally I never "hardened alistair (tehehehe) so maybe hardened Alistair is more like King maric. But light-hearted and somewhat whiney alistair is not.

B. I do NOT agree with Alistair's little b**** fit if you recruit Loghain. Ya Loghain f'ed him over, but bottom line, you need all the help you can get, and Loghain brings ALLOT to the table. Alistair needs to put himself above his childish need for revenge, and realise Loghain can help. Ultimitly Loghain can be fully redeemed and recruiting him is a wise choice.

Of course I guess I can see where Alistair is coming from. And he's human, so he certainly has faults. It does make sense why he does what he does and it does fit his character and the story. Doesn't mean I have to like it or agree though!