59 réponses à ce sujet

[yeoldearche]

Tinnic wrote...

Actually, if I recall correctly, Alistair makes a much beloved king hardened, unhardened, with or without Anora. In addition, if I recall properly Loghain used to run the country for Maric most of the time as well. Which brings me to my point that Alistair is exactly like his father but Loghain just can't see it. Which, of course, as you said, is not without basis. But doesn't mean it doesn't annoy me.

"Beloved" by the people. Which means he's popular with the commoners, but that does not make him a "good" or effective ruler; which Anora is (bringing in trade agreements and keeping the bannorn preoccupied with themselves so they aren't free to act on their more dangerous ambitions). I feel that hardened Alistair and Anora marrying and making Loghain a Warden is the best outcome (metagaming in mind, and maybe from a practical character's perspective).

Tinnic wrote...

Now that's really unfair! Siding with Loghain is basically betraying Alistair totally and utterly. Not only that but it also puts his life in danger. After Alistair lost everything, and the grey wardens were everything to him, all he really has left is the PC and then the PC goes and sides with Loghain! Of course it would just break him! Indeed, it would be far more unbelievable had Alistair just accepted the decision and no Loghain leaving Calain to the wolves is exactly like him. He hated Calain. Loghain is not kiind of people he hates.

I understand Alistair's reaction, it's how he reacts that makes me dislike him enough to drag Loghain into the Wardens gladly. He acts like a child. An idealistic, naive child who idealizes the Grey Wardens so that he's blind to what they are in substance. I don't expect him to act any other way if you choose to spare Loghain, but if he were more mature and less petulent child about the circumstance I'd respect him more. Even after killing the Archdemon and Loghain sacrificing himself, Alistair's still pouting and passive-aggressive towards you. And that's his more "determined" personality. Childish.

[Tinnic]

Wishpig wrote...

A. Alistair is NOT like Maric. Younger Maric, was light-hearted, brave, and besides being far more responsible then Alistair... yeah, I can see how young Maric and Alistair shared many simularities. But Loghain was prob not refering to young Maric, rather he was refering to Maric after the end of Stolen Throne's events. By the end of Stolen Throne Maric was much colder, hell, he was downright brutal and ruthless when he had to be. Thats nothing like Alistair.

Personally I never "hardened alistair (tehehehe) so maybe hardened Alistair is more like King maric. But light-hearted and somewhat whiney alistair is not.

B. I do NOT agree with Alistair's little b**** fit if you recruit Loghain. Ya Loghain f'ed him over, but bottom line, you need all the help you can get, and Loghain brings ALLOT to the table. Alistair needs to put himself above his childish need for revenge, and realise Loghain can help. Ultimitly Loghain can be fully redeemed and recruiting him is a wise choice.

Of course I guess I can see where Alistair is coming from. And he's human, so he certainly has faults. It does make sense why he does what he does and it does fit his character and the story. Doesn't mean I have to like it or agree though!

A. King Maric was hardened as well. Loghain got him to kill the woman he loves to get him to harden and even then he remained a much better man then Loghain ever was. Makes sense the hardened Alistair is more like hardened Maric. In addition, Maric become like that after almost four years of war. Alistair had one year.

B. Loghain himself would say what Alistair did to him was justice, NOT revenge. If I recall correctly, that's how Loghain got Maric to do a lot of the things Maric himself would never have done. Alistair wanted justice for his fellow Grey Wardens and Duncan. Nothing more, nothing less.

More importantly, the Grey Wardens mean different things to different people. To Alistair to be a Grey Warden was an honour. He enjoyed being a Grey Warden. Not all Grey Wardens are the same. To some it is a punishment. To some it was the only way to escape death, poverty etc, etc. Alistair more or less choose to be a Grey Warden. He wasn't being childish. He merely had a different perspective on what it meant to be a Grey Warden. His perspective was not flawed or wrong. Grey Wardens are different things to different people. To Alistair, the Grey Warden's represented the only true family he had ever known. A fact hammered home when is so called sister turns out to be a harpy! Of course he wasn't going to stand by and let Loghain be entered into the family. That's like a Cousland marrying Rendan Howe. 

In short, it is easy to dismiss Alistair's opposition to the recruitment of Loghain as revenge. But that view is too simplistic. Loghain did many bad things, because of his actions many people lay dead. Is Loghain alone worth them all? Absolutely not! Especially when it boils down to a choice between Alistair and Loghain. Loghain is not better then Alistair as a warrior. Strategy, or at least the kind Loghain is an expert in, are useless against the Archdemon. Indeed, the moment it becomes clear that the choice is between Alistair and Loghain, all bets are out the door. Because you gain no benefits from recruiting Loghain. If you could keep both Loghain and Alistiar, ok, you now have four grey wardens instead of the three. But if the choice between Loghain and Alistair, I will pick Alistair every single time. If only because he didn't back down on Loghain.

[Shade of Wolf]

I was sort of sad that I couldn't let Loghain live, and I really regretted chopping Ser Cauthrien's head off, just for that beautiful sword....

[SRWill64]

I, too, choose Alistair every time! He is no more childish than Loghain when he betrayed the King at Ostagar because he didn't like something Cailan did. BIG DEAL! Cailan was king and that DID give him the right to do what he wanted, besides the fact that Cailan was also privy to certain political matters Loghain was not.

I've heard it said that people want to make a tank and that Alistair is not the character to use, that he will never make a great tank, etc...... I say to those people, and the ones who say Alistair is not a good fighter...you people are ALL wrong. In my game he kicks butt! Nothing stands a chance against him and my main character. There are times that the two of them are the only ones left standing. They are both Grey Wardens, both templars, and both champions. AND THEY ROCK! I would put them up against ANYBODY! Alistair watches his back and he watches Alistair's; as long as they stay close to the other they can help each other.

As far as Loghain goes, I let Alistair exact justice on him, and Alistair does it without malice, giving Loghain a quick and honorable death by beheading him. I was proud of him. I wanted to kill him just for the fact that he had Howe butcher my family (Couslands) and hired a blood mage to poison Arl Eamon, and Alistair was merciful. Being a blood mage isn't the part I object to, after all, I did let Jowan live. And Avernus. And Loghain hired the elf to go and watch Redcliffe Castle and report any changes...before Eamon got sick, to make sure the mage did his job. He also had planned to kill Cailan before he got to Ostagar, if you pay attention to slight cues and body language. 'Yes, a glorious moment for us all' was what he said after the decision was made to send the two Grey Wardens to the Tower of Ischal...and he decided to blame Cailan's death on the Wardens at that point. What do you think Loghain had the Tower of Ischal blocked off for, anyway? His men were digging a hole out to the battlefield so the darkspawn would come up into the tower amd Loghain could say the darkspawn overwhelmed everyone in the Tower so there was nobody left to light the signal fire and he didn't know when to charge, thus absolving him of guilt. But the Wardens made sure it was lit so he had to make sure the Wardens were seen as traitors to the king before they traveled ahead of Loghain to report Loghain being the traitor.

Joining the Wardens, to me, is an honor I would NOT allow Loghain! I consider being a Warden an honor, and if it were reality in this world I would jump at the opportunity to Join! Even if the rest of the Wardens are thieves, murderers, etc.....it is still an honor. To my husband's point of view, being a warden is both an honor and a punishment...so he opted to allow Loghain to Join the Wardens. And Alistair had his fit and I had a fit, too. I agreed totally with what Alistair said in his speech after you agree to make Loghain a Warden. We don't want a traitor to good King Cailan as part of the Grey Warden family and is NOT an option! Besides the fact that I would like to beat that dirty bastard's ass myself!

[Vesimir]

Wow. For my tastes, you like Alistair too much. He's cool, and I prefer him over Loghain, but... Wow.



Alistair watches his back and he watches Alistair's - Thanks to lines like that I got the impression that... Well, you know.

[yeoldearche]

Oops, I made the mistake of posting in an Alistair fangirl thread. I'll be on my way then.



/goes off to make fun of Alistair and Cailan with Loghain

[Tinnic]

yeoldearche wrote...

Oops, I made the mistake of posting in an Alistair fangirl thread. I'll be on my way then.

/goes off to make fun of Alistair and Cailan with Loghain

That obvious eh? But if its that obvious then why did I romance Zevran!  Clearly I am suffering from an identity crisis! 

Seriously though, I like Loghain. But I can totally understand Alistair's point of view. Loghain himself I cannot help but pity. He has so much hate inside of him. Not to mention how much he sacrificed for Feraldan just because his best friend asked him to put Feraldan first. He's most definitely a tragic figure. But I just can't pick him over Alistair. I just can't!

Modifié par Tinnic, 04 avril 2010 - 06:06 .

[rak72]

I don't understand why so many, knowing what you know when you get to the Landsmeet, think recruiting Loghain is such a brilliant idea. Sure, the GW's need all of the help they can get, but, the previous time Loghain was in a position to help the GW's, he threw them right under the bus (along with his son-in-law)!!!!! What is to say he won't do it again???? Who can blame Al for not wanting to be around for the carnage when he feeds you to the Archdemon again.

[rak72]

Vesimir wrote...

Wow. For my tastes, you like Alistair too much. He's cool, and I prefer him over Loghain, but... Wow.

Alistair watches his back and he watches Alistair's - Thanks to lines like that I got the impression that... Well, you know.

That is a very mature and insightful comment...not

Modifié par rak72, 04 avril 2010 - 06:25 .

[yeoldearche]

Tinnic wrote...

yeoldearche wrote...

Oops, I made the mistake of posting in an Alistair fangirl thread. I'll be on my way then.

/goes off to make fun of Alistair and Cailan with Loghain

That obvious eh? But if its that obvious then why did I romance Zevran!  Clearly I am suffering from an identity crisis! 

Seriously though, I like Loghain. But I can totally understand Alistair's point of view. Loghain himself I cannot help but pity. He has so much hate inside of him. Not to mention how much he sacrificed for Feraldan just because his best friend asked him to put Feraldan first. He's most definitely a tragic figure. But I just can't pick him over Alistair. I just can't!

Meh, we all have our personal tastes. I understand Alistair's reaction, I just don't like it. On my first playthrough I even let Alistair kill Loghain after he won the duel; it seemed fitting for them to fight. I didn't know that I was able to spare Loghain at the time, though... but even in another playthrough I let Alistair execute Loghain, again. Over time I got tired of Alistair and only in a recent game did I finally recruit Loghain and do the whole hardened Alistair-Anora matchup. And that, along with reading the Stolen Throne, made me think a lot differently of Loghain.

Loghain > Alistair > Maric for me.

The one fact that Loghain gave up his love (Rowan) and vice versa just so Maric wouldn't fall apart like an emo child after gutting HIS love more than says enough on Loghain's character. One thing in which both Maric and Alistair are alike is that they both need outside support for them to do their duties, destinies, whatever.

[shedevil3001]

i didnt think alistair or maric needed outside support to rule i think given a little time they would of done what was best and as for loghain he was cold hearted as it even says in the books he was a murderer and shows very little remorse if not at all for all the terrible things he's done, yes alistair may seem childish and out for revenge but if you play as a hn how are we any better we do axactly the same with arl howe or if your a city elf dont we do the same with the slavers so that seems an empty argument/debate as to alistairs behaviour, also we act totally different to how we would normally when people we are close to or our family are threatened so alistairs actions are totally understandible he feels like he's lost everything important to him then our warden betrays him by siding with loghain, thats like your husband/wife betraying you for someone else you certainly wouldnt shrug it off would you ?

[CatOfEvilGenius]

I see some defense of Loghain here, people saying he wanted to defend Ferelden and he acted for the right reasons. I just saw a man stuck in the past. The Orlesians did terrible, terrible things in Ferelden, no argument from me about that. However, what does that have to do with allying with Orlesian Wardens against the Blight? The Orlesian Wardens aren't the ones who committed the atrocities, many of them were probably in diapers at the time. They're politically independent, don't work for the Empress, don't do anything but fight darkspawn. Yes, Sophia Dryden messed about in politics. She was an exception. Loghain's hatred of all things Orlesian severely screwed up his judgement.



I've also seen folks saying Loghain is a great general, brilliant strategist, and so on. I'm sure he was once, but he misjudged the Blight quite badly. A military strategist and a student of history should have known better. Even if he thought, out of ignorance, that anyone can kill the archdemon, he should have at least known that Blights mean huge armies of darkspawn. You don't fracture your nation while it's under attack by a huge army. I realize he didn't think it was a true Blight, but that's another huge mistake. Blights are such terrible threats, that if you're not sure, you should still assume and prepare for the worst. He was faced with the possibility of a Blight, and he simply dismissed it. I think his brilliant strategist days are behind him.

[Wishpig]

shedevil3001 wrote...

i didnt think alistair or maric needed outside support to rule i think given a little time they would of done what was best and as for loghain he was cold hearted as it even says in the books he was a murderer and shows very little remorse if not at all for all the terrible things he's done, yes alistair may seem childish and out for revenge but if you play as a hn how are we any better we do axactly the same with arl howe or if your a city elf dont we do the same with the slavers so that seems an empty argument/debate as to alistairs behaviour, also we act totally different to how we would normally when people we are close to or our family are threatened so alistairs actions are totally understandible he feels like he's lost everything important to him then our warden betrays him by siding with loghain, thats like your husband/wife betraying you for someone else you certainly wouldnt shrug it off would you ?

I don't know. I don't agree. Maric wouldn't have even survived if it wasn't for Loghain. Maybe Maric would have made for a good king eventually, maybe he wouldn't have if it wasn't for Loghain's violent shove in the "right" direction.

Alistair's actions are totally normally and unstandible though. I mean, ya it's childish and I think he's being a stubborn DA... but thats humans for you! Besides, it's stuff like this, that keep characters from seeming perfect and thus unbeleavible.

That said, no, it's nothing like having a husband or wife betray you... unless having your spouse betray you could help save the world.

[errant_knight]

Tinnic wrote...

I have just finished reading the Stolen Throne and The Calling (great books by the way, I wager enjoyable by all lovers of fantasy and not just fans of Dragon Age - should probably be made into movies by Peter Jackson!) and I am overcome with an overwhelming desire to punch Loghain in the face!

Honestly, the next time I here him say to Alistair "I see nothing of Maric in him" I'll probably end up breaking my TV! Alistair exactly like Maric! Either Loghain is blind or the years since his friends death has made him forget what his friend was really like!

Anyone else found that? 

This is just one of the many reasons that I've only killed Loghain myself once, in favor of having Alistair kill him the other times. It's so very satisfying to let Loghain see just how much of Maric is in Alistair up close and personal. Now that's a sword of truthiness, whether is be Maric's sword, Duncan's sword, or just Topsider's Honor.

[SRWill64]

Vesimir wrote...

Wow. For my tastes, you like Alistair too much. He's cool, and I prefer him over Loghain, but... Wow.

Alistair watches his back and he watches Alistair's - Thanks to lines like that I got the impression that... Well, you know.

If you've EVER read any books with battle in them you'd know that means they protect each other from back attacks. Don't read anything into it, you pompous windbag. That doesn't mean they swap spit...of course it doesn't indicate anything one way or the other...but they don't. They are very good friends as anyone who runs along the same line of morals tend to be.
I happen to love Alistair...but then again, I'm allowed being female. Just because I have a male avatar, who happens to be my character, doen't mean I am.

[SRWill64]

shedevil3001 wrote...

i didnt think alistair or maric needed outside support to rule i think given a little time they would of done what was best and as for loghain he was cold hearted as it even says in the books he was a murderer and shows very little remorse if not at all for all the terrible things he's done, yes alistair may seem childish and out for revenge but if you play as a hn how are we any better we do axactly the same with arl howe or if your a city elf dont we do the same with the slavers so that seems an empty argument/debate as to alistairs behaviour, also we act totally different to how we would normally when people we are close to or our family are threatened so alistairs actions are totally understandible he feels like he's lost everything important to him then our warden betrays him by siding with loghain, thats like your husband/wife betraying you for someone else you certainly wouldnt shrug it off would you ?

You are absolutely right and I couldn't agree more!

[SRWill64]

errant_knight wrote...

Tinnic wrote...

I have just finished reading the Stolen Throne and The Calling (great books by the way, I wager enjoyable by all lovers of fantasy and not just fans of Dragon Age - should probably be made into movies by Peter Jackson!) and I am overcome with an overwhelming desire to punch Loghain in the face!

Honestly, the next time I here him say to Alistair "I see nothing of Maric in him" I'll probably end up breaking my TV! Alistair exactly like Maric! Either Loghain is blind or the years since his friends death has made him forget what his friend was really like!

Anyone else found that? 

This is just one of the many reasons that I've only killed Loghain myself once, in favor of having Alistair kill him the other times. It's so very satisfying to let Loghain see just how much of Maric is in Alistair up close and personal. Now that's a sword of truthiness, whether is be Maric's sword, Duncan's sword, or just Topsider's Honor.

Me too, me too!
I thought it was poetic justice for the son of Maric to execute the once-Hero-of-Ferelden-turned-traitor. He betrayed the son of Maric who was the rightful heir to the throne, and he betrayed the Grey Wardens whom Maric had reinstated into Ferelden. He almost destroyed everything Maric had put into place and left of himself for Ferelden. Thankfully he fell in love with a certain scullery maid and they produced Alistair who helps to set everything right. When you allow him to execute Loghain, it is poetic justice. And, without malice, Alistair does it in one stroke, beheading Loghain, which was (in Medieval Europe, maybe in Ferelden) a quick and honorable death. Again he proves himself worthy of being the son of Maric. I was so proud of him for conducting himself as a king should, even though he wasn't at the time.

[SRWill64]

Tokion wrote...

I have nothing but respect for Loghain, especially if you have read the book. He is a strategic man, some king who 'loves to play hero' but with little knowledge of real battle will doom the kingdom in the end.

The warden's story of 'proving him wrong' is the main plot of DA:O. And the events leading to the landsmeet is what makes the story in DA:O compelling and drives the player to united the kingdom as a whole. But do you really want to kill the greatest general of ferelden of its time just for the sake of petty revenge?

Yes, I would, but that would be MY Warden killing Loghain!
Alistair does it to protect everything his father stood for and loved!

[CatOfEvilGenius]

SRWill64 - I think Alistair also does it, in large part, to avenge Duncan, whom he loved like a father. Not that I'm saying that's a bad reason, actually. At the time of the game, Duncan would have been of far more use to Ferelden.

[SRWill64]

fangedwolf wrote...

After reading the books, I actually saw Loghain in a better light, knowing his background and all. His actions made way more sense than before.

I do admit though that some of the comments and stuff he had been saying in regards to Maric were total balls though. I think that over time his memory of Maric, like anyone remembering someone dead, became better. However because of the way Loghain's character is, this artistic licence would have painted Maric as more like having characteristics of himself, rather than remembering all the times that he was overly kind to others. This would explain why Loghain spoke about Maric disapproving of things, when in fact it was just him that did. Also, because Loghain forced Maric to 'face up to harsh realities', it would make himself feel less guilty about doing so. It is easier to think that Maric always was 'hardened' and practical, than remembering that it was himself who betrayed Maric's trust in forcing him to for the good of the country.

Oooh! Ouch! Ouch!
Truth hurts, doesn't it?
Loghain WAS losing his mind after all......

[AliceTheGiraffe]

To each their own. I liked Loghain more after reading the books and he is one of my favorite characters. It was hard for me to finish The Stolen Throne knowing that Maric would end up with Rowan, when in my opinion he did not deserve her.

Loghain reminds me of an onion. He has a lot of layers and truly he is a good, nice person, but he does not show that to just anyone. People have to earn Loghain's respect and trust.

Loghain reminds me of Snape from Harry Potter, another character who is the black sheep. They're complex characters and both did not have easy childhoods/lives. They were not given everything on a silver platter, they had to work for what they had.

Edit:

Also, just wanted to add that Alistair is one of my favorite characters too and I always have him kill Loghain in the game, even though I like Loghain too.

Modifié par AliceTheGiraffe, 05 avril 2010 - 03:17 .

[SRWill64]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

SRWill64 - I think Alistair also does it, in large part, to avenge Duncan, whom he loved like a father. Not that I'm saying that's a bad reason, actually. At the time of the game, Duncan would have been of far more use to Ferelden.

But, if you remember right, Duncan was going to go to the Deep Roads when the Blight appeared. How much help would he have REALLY been? By the time the Blight was ended would he have been able to maintain his humanity?

[SRWill64]

AliceTheGiraffe wrote...

To each their own. I liked Loghain more after reading the books and he is one of my favorite characters. It was hard for me to finish The Stolen Throne knowing that Maric would end up with Rowan, when in my opinion he did not deserve her.

Loghain reminds me of an onion. He has a lot of layers and truly he is a good, nice person, but he does not show that to just anyone. People have to earn Loghain's respect and trust.

Loghain reminds me of Snape from Harry Potter, another character who is the black sheep. They're complex characters and both did not have easy childhoods/lives. They were not given everything on a silver platter, they had to work for what they had.

Edit:

Also, just wanted to add that Alistair is one of my favorite characters too and I always have him kill Loghain in the game, even though I like Loghain too.

Geeez....and I like Snape, too. But Snape didn't betray the school or the headmaster (what was his name again?). Besides, as I said, Loghain was kind of losing it and I think Alistair took pity on him because maybe he realized it. Alistair seems to have that gift of sensitivity to others feelings/thoughts. Maybe it was more out of mercy that Alistair took Loghain's head off.

[errant_knight]

SRWill64 wrote...

AliceTheGiraffe wrote...

To each their own. I liked Loghain more after reading the books and he is one of my favorite characters. It was hard for me to finish The Stolen Throne knowing that Maric would end up with Rowan, when in my opinion he did not deserve her.

Loghain reminds me of an onion. He has a lot of layers and truly he is a good, nice person, but he does not show that to just anyone. People have to earn Loghain's respect and trust.

Loghain reminds me of Snape from Harry Potter, another character who is the black sheep. They're complex characters and both did not have easy childhoods/lives. They were not given everything on a silver platter, they had to work for what they had.

Edit:

Also, just wanted to add that Alistair is one of my favorite characters too and I always have him kill Loghain in the game, even though I like Loghain too.

Geeez....and I like Snape, too. But Snape didn't betray the school or the headmaster (what was his name again?). Besides, as I said, Loghain was kind of losing it and I think Alistair took pity on him because maybe he realized it. Alistair seems to have that gift of sensitivity to others feelings/thoughts. Maybe it was more out of mercy that Alistair took Loghain's head off.

Heh, the same kind of mercy he says the Chantry would show in a situation which shall go unspoiled--the sword of mercy right through the heart--or in this case, neck.

Alistair might be a little more sensitive than the average guy in a big metal suit who kills things for a living, but he's not that sensitive. It's about revenge and getting Loghain out of the warden's way, pure and simple. At least in my opinion.... I'm good with that.

Modifié par errant_knight, 05 avril 2010 - 03:46 .

[AliceTheGiraffe]

SRWill64 wrote...

Geeez....and I like Snape, too. But Snape didn't betray the school or the headmaster (what was his name again?). Besides, as I said, Loghain was kind of losing it and I think Alistair took pity on him because maybe he realized it. Alistair seems to have that gift of sensitivity to others feelings/thoughts. Maybe it was more out of mercy that Alistair took Loghain's head off.

Albus Dumbledore.

Anyways, Loghain was always bitter and I do not really think he "lost it mentally" but more he let his rage/hatred consume him. Even in The Stolen Throne he made choices some might claim to be cold and callous, however, he also had good things going for him in the book too. I think by the time we all see him in the game, he was kind of wearing thin. He had no one to console him and guide him down a gentler path. His wife was dead, Rowan is dead, Maric is dead, his daughter blames him for Cailan's death. Poor Loghain!