65 réponses à ce sujet

[elikal71]

Let me say this first: I am a vivid fantasy geek for... I dunno, some 25 years. I swallowed almost every fantasy game in the last 20 years and it is what I love most to play.

But DA and Ferelden... I must say it was a world I never really cared about, from way too many angles. I kow a fantasy world can't be all roses and daisies, and it was always labled as "dark" fantasy. But you know, my two most defining fantastic universes where Ultima and Star Wars. In Ultima you were the Avatar of the Eight Britannian Virtues. And whoever like me recalls playing Ultima IV, Quest of the Avatar, with NO evil, no endboss, just a quest to become a paragon of virtue, you maybe know what I talk about.

One of the issues I had with DA was, I wasnt really allowed to play good. I wasn't really able to have a positive impact. Every side was mired with a darkness to a degree I found that my will to bring good was kinda hopeless. The Dwarfs were bogged down by their endless house bickering (disgusting depiction of Dwarfs), the Elves where beaten and lost, the humans... well as bad as humans can be. Blind to the suffering of the lower classes, naturally taking Elves as under-humans, the only good thing I was able to say to myself at the end of the day was that I survived another day. I dunno... I kinda missed the choice to really influence people. Instead my party members had a fixed morale and I had to either satisfy their whims or they critizise me on every single step. I felt in lack of impact on the world and the party as highly frustrating.

The other thing, when I play, I am a Jedi. Sounds silly, but thats how I play. I dont kill one who yields. I dont do revenge. I even let that slaver of the city elves live and didnt slay him when he yileded. I didnt want to kill  Loghain, tho he prolly deserved it when he yielded to me, but I let Alistair have his revenge... I sorta talked myself out of it like, he is king and its his decision. Still... I was not comfortable with it. And playing goody good was sort of pointless.

And then those Wardens! I can honestly say I hated them from every angle. Forcing people unknowing into service, sacrificing them to demons - heck they didnt even TRY to find other ways! And there are other ways. That evil mage in the keep found some and Morrigan knew another, so there is good chance with some more research there may be other ways. They NEVER ever cared for the reasons why there are demons, why those old gods now where evil and what really was behind all of it! They were totally complacent fighting the evil, and with methods I can not agree with. That is my reason No1 NOT to keep playing new expansion packs and prolly not new games, because I would have rather fought against the Wardens and their more than questionable methods. In NO way I would support that and be content with those solutions! For me the means is never ever justified by the result! NOT EVER.

My skepticism on the doings of men was mostly like Morrigans. I always thought, hey werent those Draons once good gods, and isnt there another way to restore balance or at least SEEK to restore them instead of just blindly trying to kill them? This entire black white thinking, the evil Blight... sorry I am not into that. Things are not made evil. There are reasons and biographies. And WHAT is that human obsession to always want to kill Dragons?? Man, I love Dragons, I see them as great symbols of wisdom and good... just another thing to make me feel "meh" about all of it.


So I finished it, made Alister King... and boy I hated that whiney child of a man - and in my end I went away with Zev and left the Wardens behind. May the world now turn on without me, for I am done with that dark organization and that bleak kingdom and that world where I have no chance to bring good.


EDIT: Oh and this ABYSMAL church! I swear if I could I wouild have disbanded with bunch of hypocrites. I am sure it is their fault the Old Gods were tainted and now they spread this lie about the so called Maker! Just smells rotten to me and as a result I was cross with half of the world's characters.

Modifié par elikal71, 03 avril 2010 - 11:26 .

[Befit]

let me ask you a question. if u were attacked by a bear do u ask the bear why he does it? or do you fight tooth and nail to survive? the dark spawn don't care to talk (excluding architect) they run on impolse currupting all they touch. and how many warden recruits truly backed out when told that they are called upon to help against a great darkness. and jedi recruit kids without thier cosent just thier parents, so what's the difference?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

This isn't roses and unicorns fantasy, and Grey Wardens ain't paladins.



And I disagree there are no happy choices that make a signifigsant impact on the world, there are several.



Like, going to the Circle to free connor from the demon as opposed to sacrificing him or his mother.



Getting Zathrien to end the curse and freeing both sides



As a mage, in the end, you get the opportunity to free the circle. As a dalish, you can get a homeland for your people. As a dawrf, you can get surface help with fighting the darkspawn.



Just off the top of my head. That's alot of rainbows and sunshine for a fantasy game.



I like the DA world just fine without it's pgeonhole morality.

[Efesell]

One of the issues I had with DA was, I wasnt really allowed to play good. I wasn't really able to have a positive impact. Every side was mired with a darkness to a degree I found that my will to bring good was kinda hopeless.

Mission Accomplished.

[zahra]

Urm, I think DA tried its best to mirror real life. You can't turn the whole world into a fountain of goodness and no matter what option you take there are always repercussions. In fact I wish DA would punish lawful good choices, as it seemed like the best options (tactically) always seemed to be the ones that were the "morally" right thing to do (well, obvs not morally righteous enough for you).

[Jawson]

You're an angry little person aren't you? Anti church, pro demon... Yeah have fun with that. Granted this world is not as deep as other fantasy realms, but I agree with zahra, they shot for a more "real life" approach, or practical I would say. When your lands are being over run with monsters, you don't have time to reason with old gods. There is a reason they turned evil, became demons, they are not just misunderstood, lol. Hey not every game is for every body, so being a person with free will, trade in the game for something you like better.

[silverholly83]

It is entirely possible to play DA as a good person. There are many encounters where you can choose a fairly mutually beneficial outcome for everyone (ex. Redcliffe, Circle, Dalish..). My husband even figured out how to get a happy result from Honnelath. I end my Origins playthroughs content that I not only halted the Blight but saved families and helped heal wounds throughout the land. For all you call him a "whiney child of a man" what I gather from reading your post is that you seem sympathetic to unhardend Alistair's views. He's very much an "ends don't justify the means" innocent character.



I think your expectations and mental image of a good and a good person is unrealistic. Real life doesn't have clear-cut good and bad decisions; even the best choice is a light shade of grey at most becuase you have no way of knowing the motivations of everyone involved or the ability to predict all future repercussions. This is true particularly for the dwarves. The clear choice, for me, had quite the opposite result I expected while the other choice was rather surprisingly awesome. Yes, the dwarves will continue to bicker and fight but why is that wrong? I'd say it mirrors a realistic aspect of governments. There will always be those who disagree with the system no matter what.



The point of the Wardens is that they make the difficult and questionable decisions so that the rest of the world doesn't have to. They "live in the shadows" of morality because they must. The drinking of darkspawn blood, to me, is akin to blood magic and the assumption that no one would want Wardens in their midst if they knew exactly what the price was is fairly reasonable. Additionally, just because the Wardens do what they must to achieve their ends, the "what they must" in Origins is entirely up to you. You can be any sort of Warden you want to be. I don't think that Levi went to any Wardens about Soldier's Peak besides Duncan and you; it's up to you to decide if investigating is worth your time. It's up to you to decide how to handle Connor. It's always up to you to assess the situation, gather what information you can, and make the best decision possible. The Fereldan order has recently returned as you learn, and they didn't have the time or resources to conduct investigations during Origins; there're only two left. Duncan also told you that many things the Wardens assumed to be true were not. They do want to know what makes the darkspawn tick as it's one of the reasons you're sent to Amaranthine in Awakenings.



It is unfortunate that you didn't see the potential for good the Warden could do in Fereldan, but it really sounds like you wanted instant change. That's not a realistic expectation for a war-torn and ravaged country. Your influence and decisions have long reaching consequenses. You set things in motion for changes, good or bad.

[Serissia]

I can't say I agree with you at all.

Ostagar
- help the prisoner get food & water

Lothering
- show mercy and run off the bandits
- do all the chanter's board quests
- give silver to the robbed elves
- give silver to the little boy who lost his mother
- compromise with the unscrupulous merchant
- show mercy to loghain's guards
- give silver to the revered mother
- free Sten and let him atone for his crimes by battling the Blight

I could go on but I think I've made my point. There are plenty of good actions that you can do throughout the game. It is possible to get an epilogue where 98% of your choices will make Ferelden an over all better place for the dwarves, elves and humans.

Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture when making your choices. A perfect example would be Harrowmont vs Bhelen. If you want what is best for Ferelden and the dwarves then Bhelen is the better king. He opens up further trade with the surface and improves the lives of the castless. Bhelen is not a better person than Harrowmont though. Bhelen pitted his brothers against each other to remove them from the line of succession.

As someone else said it ultimately comes down to the fact that you're playing a Grey Warden not a righteous paladin. Personally I've always felt that Alistair is a poor example of what a Grey Warden really is. Grey Wardens walk a fine line between what is right and what must be done for the greater good. Duncan and Riordan both knew this and it reflected in their characters even if both of their screen times were comparatively minuscule.

Modifié par Serissia, 03 avril 2010 - 01:57 .

[Herr Uhl]

silverholly83 wrote...

My husband even figured out how to get a happy result from Honnelath.

I thought that was fairly obvious. Get rid of the demon, free Shale end skip away into the sunset.

If decisions ended up being the obvious samaritan or douche I would loose much of my interest in the game, it's supposed to be a grey morality scale.

[this isnt my name]

elikal71 wrote...

Let me say this first: I am a vivid fantasy geek for... I dunno, some 25 years. I swallowed almost every fantasy game in the last 20 years and it is what I love most to play.

But DA and Ferelden... I must say it was a world I never really cared about, from way too many angles. I kow a fantasy world can't be all roses and daisies, and it was always labled as "dark" fantasy. But you know, my two most defining fantastic universes where Ultima and Star Wars. In Ultima you were the Avatar of the Eight Britannian Virtues. And whoever like me recalls playing Ultima IV, Quest of the Avatar, with NO evil, no endboss, just a quest to become a paragon of virtue, you maybe know what I talk about.

One of the issues I had with DA was, I wasnt really allowed to play good. I wasn't really able to have a positive impact. Every side was mired with a darkness to a degree I found that my will to bring good was kinda hopeless. The Dwarfs were bogged down by their endless house bickering (disgusting depiction of Dwarfs), the Elves where beaten and lost, the humans... well as bad as humans can be. Blind to the suffering of the lower classes, naturally taking Elves as under-humans, the only good thing I was able to say to myself at the end of the day was that I survived another day. I dunno... I kinda missed the choice to really influence people. Instead my party members had a fixed morale and I had to either satisfy their whims or they critizise me on every single step. I felt in lack of impact on the world and the party as highly frustrating.

The other thing, when I play, I am a Jedi. Sounds silly, but thats how I play. I dont kill one who yields. I dont do revenge. I even let that slaver of the city elves live and didnt slay him when he yileded. I didnt want to kill  Loghain, tho he prolly deserved it when he yielded to me, but I let Alistair have his revenge... I sorta talked myself out of it like, he is king and its his decision. Still... I was not comfortable with it. And playing goody good was sort of pointless.

And then those Wardens! I can honestly say I hated them from every angle. Forcing people unknowing into service, sacrificing them to demons - heck they didnt even TRY to find other ways! And there are other ways. That evil mage in the keep found some and Morrigan knew another, so there is good chance with some more research there may be other ways. They NEVER ever cared for the reasons why there are demons, why those old gods now where evil and what really was behind all of it! They were totally complacent fighting the evil, and with methods I can not agree with. That is my reason No1 NOT to keep playing new expansion packs and prolly not new games, because I would have rather fought against the Wardens and their more than questionable methods. In NO way I would support that and be content with those solutions! For me the means is never ever justified by the result! NOT EVER.

My skepticism on the doings of men was mostly like Morrigans. I always thought, hey werent those Draons once good gods, and isnt there another way to restore balance or at least SEEK to restore them instead of just blindly trying to kill them? This entire black white thinking, the evil Blight... sorry I am not into that. Things are not made evil. There are reasons and biographies. And WHAT is that human obsession to always want to kill Dragons?? Man, I love Dragons, I see them as great symbols of wisdom and good... just another thing to make me feel "meh" about all of it.


So I finished it, made Alister King... and boy I hated that whiney child of a man - and in my end I went away with Zev and left the Wardens behind. May the world now turn on without me, for I am done with that dark organization and that bleak kingdom and that world where I have no chance to bring good.


EDIT: Oh and this ABYSMAL church! I swear if I could I wouild have disbanded with bunch of hypocrites. I am sure it is their fault the Old Gods were tainted and now they spread this lie about the so called Maker! Just smells rotten to me and as a result I was cross with half of the world's characters.

Sorry but I find the argument stupid, you shouldnt be able to please everyone, thats a fact about life.
What so Bioware making the dwarves argue over politics isw a bad depiction ? Much better than the ones who just mine, fight and get drunk, glad they changed that.
Again with the party its like real life, you can change some peoples opinions, not everyones, so you shouldnt be able to have mind control e.g shepard in ME1/2 can make people do a 180 on decisions, its stupid.
And as for the wardens did you miss the part where ther are darkspawn killing everything, yeah you tend not to think about whats morally questionable you do whatever it takes to get the best result, if they have to sacrafice a few people to save 100 no problem, they were never meant to be paragons, they were meant to stop the blight at any cost.
Im sure your into black and white seeing as you want to have perfect choices with no consequences, in some cases there is no perfect choice. What you see the dragons as is pretty irrelivent, in this world Bioware makes the lore, if dragons are evil they are evil, if they want to change it fine, but its their world at the end of the day, you either live with it or dont play the game.
I think its a dark fantasy,. seeing as most fantasy stories have fairytale endings, glad to see this dosent.

[Thalorin1919]

elikal71 wrote...



So I finished it, made Alister King... and boy I hated that whiney child of a man - and in my end I went away with Zev and left the Wardens behind. May the world now turn on without me, for I am done with that dark organization and that bleak kingdom and that world where I have no chance to bring good.

Where is everyone getting the impression that Alistair is "whiny"?

In all my playthroughs he never comes across as whiny to me, the only time he is whiny is when he is un-hardened and he wont become King.

But before you harden him he will whine about becoming King, why? Because he was raised to think that he doesnt have the ability to handle important decisions and lead people, that why he doesnt want to become King. Once you harden him, he knows he can do that stuff.

[Efesell]

So he's not whiny.. except for the times when he IS whiny?

[Herr Uhl]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

In all my playthroughs he never comes across as whiny to me, the only time he is whiny is when he is un-hardened and he wont become King.

But before you harden him he will whine about becoming King, why? Because he was raised to think that he doesnt have the ability to handle important decisions and lead people, that why he doesnt want to become King. Once you harden him, he knows he can do that stuff.

See his angsting over childhood and Duncan, when your character usually had it worse. So, you lost the dude you have known for half a year? Good for you, I just had my entire family killed (for the most usual scenario, as most play human noble).

Edit: Compare this to how Zevran and Oghren (good analogies imo) deal with their pasts. None of them whine.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 03 avril 2010 - 02:45 .

[elikal71]

I dont know when people started to think that dark and gloomy was "realistic". I guess at the same time when "all brown and grey colours" was thought to be "realistic". But for the news: if I want realism, I already HAVE a reality! When I play a game I dont need ALL roses and unicorns, but I need the chance to make it mostly good. Like, say, in KOTOR. Or Mass Effect. You can't say ME was a rainbow game! Really. But you could make it good. And your party wasn't all critizising you all the frigging way, and in DA! EVERYONE had an opinion about every damn fart, and I hated the DA party for it.



Everyone was a whiney or ****ing "oh I dont agree with that." Heck, even when I took down the Kings body in Ostagar to burn him and NOT let him rot, Zev and Morrigan disagreed with that - for whatever reasons. If I want a walking jury I'd go to one of those TV shows!



I would expect that, as in KOTOR, I could, over time, influence my companions. And Alistair was the WORST of them all! He CRITIZISED EVERY DAMN thing I decided, but he never wanted to be responsible at any time. I mean, step back, let others make the tough decision, but they STOP the heck ****ing about everything I decide. Its one or the other. He didnt want to lead the Wardens, he didnt want to be King, the only thing he wanted in Loghain dead, so the only time he DID decide anything was revenge. Great. And he, Wynne and that Bard girl with all her Maker mumbling. Maker this, Maker that... well if he unleashes those demons on men, he cant be that great in my book, but they called ME evil when I dont slay a dragon and his followers (in the Andraste cave) JUST BECAUSE HE IS THERE. What hypocrisy is THAT?



Morrigan ****ed at me every damn time I tried to save anyone. "Must we save this xyz helpless innocent again... **** ****". YES WE MUST ITS FOR THE FRIGGING XP!



Really, Zev and Dog where the only ones I liked. Everyone else was a psycho nut, a hypocrite or a whiner in this "party", with whom I wouldn't stay a minute if not for a quest to save the world, which in the end was my only reason to actually BE there and not return to my wonderful Dalish home. At least my ppl got their home in the end, IF humans stick to that, that is. Which, as I know humans, they prolly WONT anyway.

[nos_astra]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Edit: Compare this to how Zevran and Oghren (good analogies imo) deal with
their pasts. None of them whine.

No, Zevran loves to kill people and Oghren drinks himself into stupor. So much better.

Modifié par klarabella, 03 avril 2010 - 02:59 .

[Jawson]

"And then those Wardens! I can honestly say I hated them from every angle. Forcing people unknowing into service, sacrificing them to demons - heck they didnt even TRY to find other ways! And there are other ways. That evil mage in the keep found some and Morrigan knew another, so there is good chance with some more research there may be other ways. They NEVER ever cared for the reasons why there are demons, why those old gods now where evil and what really was behind all of it! They were totally complacent fighting the evil, and with methods I can not agree with. That is my reason No1 NOT to keep playing new expansion packs and prolly not new games, because I would have rather fought against the Wardens and their more than questionable methods. In NO way I would support that and be content with those solutions! For me the means is never ever justified by the result! NOT EVER."





LMAO, this is my favorite part, the warden's are evil, for fighting demons, and the mage who tortured his friends to death.is o.k. I'm pretty sure over the centuries, plenty of "research" was done to try and prevent something that could wipe out all life in the world. Why were the old gods evil? I dunno, because they decided to be I guess, who cares? Wait let me guess, the Maker and the church were the real bad guys. You would defend evil that would rip off your face as soon, as look at you, but condemn those who by the very act of joining give up their lives to save humanity. You my friend have issues.

[nos_astra]

elikal71 wrote...
Everyone was a whiney or ****ing "oh I dont agree with that." Heck, even when I took down the Kings body in Ostagar to burn him and NOT let him rot, Zev and Morrigan disagreed with that - for whatever reasons. If I want a walking jury I'd go to one of those TV shows!

I would expect that, as in KOTOR, I could, over time, influence my companions. And Alistair was the WORST of them all! He CRITIZISED EVERY DAMN thing I decided, but he never wanted to be responsible at any time. I mean, step back, let others make the tough decision, but they STOP the heck ****ing about everything I decide. Its one or the other. He didnt want to lead the Wardens, he didnt want to be King, the only thing he wanted in Loghain dead, so the only time he DID decide anything was revenge. Great. And he, Wynne and that Bard girl with all her Maker mumbling. Maker this, Maker that... well if he unleashes those demons on men, he cant be that great in my book, but they called ME evil when I dont slay a dragon and his followers (in the Andraste cave) JUST BECAUSE HE IS THERE. What hypocrisy is THAT?

Whatta walloftext!

I'd vote for a patch that implements the possibility of Alistair taking charge when your approval is low enough.
"I want to talk to you RIGHT NOW! YOU are BAD and EVIL and I can't watch you sully the name and honor of our order any longer. SOD IT - I'm the leader now. Sten, bind him! Let's do this right."

After that you are allowed to watch the rest of the game in one long cutscene.

I'm so in love with this idea.

Modifié par klarabella, 03 avril 2010 - 03:07 .

[elikal71]

Jawson wrote...

"And then those Wardens! I can honestly say I hated them from every angle. Forcing people unknowing into service, sacrificing them to demons - heck they didnt even TRY to find other ways! And there are other ways. That evil mage in the keep found some and Morrigan knew another, so there is good chance with some more research there may be other ways. They NEVER ever cared for the reasons why there are demons, why those old gods now where evil and what really was behind all of it! They were totally complacent fighting the evil, and with methods I can not agree with. That is my reason No1 NOT to keep playing new expansion packs and prolly not new games, because I would have rather fought against the Wardens and their more than questionable methods. In NO way I would support that and be content with those solutions! For me the means is never ever justified by the result! NOT EVER."


LMAO, this is my favorite part, the warden's are evil, for fighting demons, and the mage who tortured his friends to death.is o.k. I'm pretty sure over the centuries, plenty of "research" was done to try and prevent something that could wipe out all life in the world. Why were the old gods evil? I dunno, because they decided to be I guess, who cares? Wait let me guess, the Maker and the church were the real bad guys. You would defend evil that would rip off your face as soon, as look at you, but condemn those who by the very act of joining give up their lives to save humanity. You my friend have issues.

Well I dont buy this "they just are evil" crap. The Wardens didnt waste a minute on the idea that something happened that turned those Dragons evil, something that created the Blight, and work on healing THAT. And no all means are justified by the end, like dooming people by taking them into the Grey Warden, unknowing what that means. Its too much!

Maybe they are Gods, maybe they were here first and humans are the ursurper? Then what? Maybe if humans are to blame for what happend in the past? We dont know anything about the cause and I was deeply frustrated that apparently none did, save the holier than thou Chantry, explaining it was the will of the Maker for human sins. Yeeess... that sounds believable. Sorry if I need more then "here is a sword, these a the bad guys, kill them all" for going and doing that. It's just not enough.

[Efesell]

How dare these people be.. in character.. I have XP to get dammit.

[elikal71]

klarabella wrote...

elikal71 wrote...
Everyone was a whiney or ****ing "oh I dont agree with that." Heck, even when I took down the Kings body in Ostagar to burn him and NOT let him rot, Zev and Morrigan disagreed with that - for whatever reasons. If I want a walking jury I'd go to one of those TV shows!

I would expect that, as in KOTOR, I could, over time, influence my companions. And Alistair was the WORST of them all! He CRITIZISED EVERY DAMN thing I decided, but he never wanted to be responsible at any time. I mean, step back, let others make the tough decision, but they STOP the heck ****ing about everything I decide. Its one or the other. He didnt want to lead the Wardens, he didnt want to be King, the only thing he wanted in Loghain dead, so the only time he DID decide anything was revenge. Great. And he, Wynne and that Bard girl with all her Maker mumbling. Maker this, Maker that... well if he unleashes those demons on men, he cant be that great in my book, but they called ME evil when I dont slay a dragon and his followers (in the Andraste cave) JUST BECAUSE HE IS THERE. What hypocrisy is THAT?

Whatta walloftext!

I'd vote for a patch that implements the possibility of Alistair taking charge when your approval is low enough.
"I want to talk to you RIGHT NOW! YOU are BAD and EVIL and I can't watch you sully the name and honor of our order any longer. SOD IT - I'm the leader now. Sten, bind him! Let's do this right."

After that you are allowed to watch the rest of the game in one long cutscene.

I'm so in love with this idea.

That would be highly impractical. I didnt expect that. What I DO expect, is that someone who CONSTANTLY says he hates to decide keeps his trap shut when others decide and not whine about every step of it. As General Patton used to say: lead me, follow me or get out of my way.

I dont need my party members to be puppets, but I think I should be able to see things my way, especially when they are all so eager to let me decide all the time, even when it is totally ridiculous. WHY does everyone ask me what should happen to Loghain? WHY? I am not judge or jury, I am even a foreigner, being a Dalish. Don't they have courts for that or laws? Why are those decisions always my whim and then everyone and everyone's mom complains how I decide. Thats absurd. I dont need mindless followers, but I want, as in KOTOR, that over time I can influence them and not every coffee pot and place left side of my spoon rather than right gets me -5 of someone for a lack of etiquette.

Modifié par elikal71, 03 avril 2010 - 03:13 .

[Jawson]

elikal71 wrote...

Jawson wrote...

"And then those Wardens! I can honestly say I hated them from every angle. Forcing people unknowing into service, sacrificing them to demons - heck they didnt even TRY to find other ways! And there are other ways. That evil mage in the keep found some and Morrigan knew another, so there is good chance with some more research there may be other ways. They NEVER ever cared for the reasons why there are demons, why those old gods now where evil and what really was behind all of it! They were totally complacent fighting the evil, and with methods I can not agree with. That is my reason No1 NOT to keep playing new expansion packs and prolly not new games, because I would have rather fought against the Wardens and their more than questionable methods. In NO way I would support that and be content with those solutions! For me the means is never ever justified by the result! NOT EVER."


LMAO, this is my favorite part, the warden's are evil, for fighting demons, and the mage who tortured his friends to death.is o.k. I'm pretty sure over the centuries, plenty of "research" was done to try and prevent something that could wipe out all life in the world. Why were the old gods evil? I dunno, because they decided to be I guess, who cares? Wait let me guess, the Maker and the church were the real bad guys. You would defend evil that would rip off your face as soon, as look at you, but condemn those who by the very act of joining give up their lives to save humanity. You my friend have issues.

Well I dont buy this "they just are evil" crap. The Wardens didnt waste a minute on the idea that something happened that turned those Dragons evil, something that created the Blight, and work on healing THAT. And no all means are justified by the end, like dooming people by taking them into the Grey Warden, unknowing what that means. Its too much!

Maybe they are Gods, maybe they were here first and humans are the ursurper? Then what? Maybe if humans are to blame for what happend in the past? We dont know anything about the cause and I was deeply frustrated that apparently none did, save the holier than thou Chantry, explaining it was the will of the Maker for human sins. Yeeess... that sounds believable. Sorry if I need more then "here is a sword, these a the bad guys, kill them all" for going and doing that. It's just not enough.

*sigh*  So what would all this matter?  Say it was the Human's fault, or any of your other senerios?  What difference would that make?  Unless Morrigan had a time travel spell, it makes no difference, the situation is, what it is.  So when someone breaks into your house and starts raping, and killing, you would stand there, and try to figure out what happened to this person, to make him so hateful, and callous?  Or would you do what you could to save yourself, and your family?  DAO is FAR from perfect, but it is also far from a hack and slash.  Also I like the angle they took with the chantry, most fantasy games have the usual seudo pagan kind of faiths, this game took a world in transition into a predominant monotheism.  I found it interesting, different characters embraced it, others resisted strongly, you  had these options as well, don't believe in the Maker, you can tell them that.   You say you don't want reality , but it sounds like your personal belief system is getting in the way of you enjoying a game.  It's just that, a game.

Modifié par Jawson, 03 avril 2010 - 03:33 .

[Walina]

elikal71 wrote...

Let me say this first: I am a vivid fantasy geek for... I dunno, some 25 years. I swallowed almost every fantasy game in the last 20 years and it is what I love most to play.

But DA and Ferelden... I must say it was a world I never really cared about, from way too many angles. I kow a fantasy world can't be all roses and daisies, and it was always labled as "dark" fantasy. But you know, my two most defining fantastic universes where Ultima and Star Wars. In Ultima you were the Avatar of the Eight Britannian Virtues. And whoever like me recalls playing Ultima IV, Quest of the Avatar, with NO evil, no endboss, just a quest to become a paragon of virtue, you maybe know what I talk about.

One of the issues I had with DA was, I wasnt really allowed to play good. I wasn't really able to have a positive impact. Every side was mired with a darkness to a degree I found that my will to bring good was kinda hopeless. The Dwarfs were bogged down by their endless house bickering (disgusting depiction of Dwarfs), the Elves where beaten and lost, the humans... well as bad as humans can be. Blind to the suffering of the lower classes, naturally taking Elves as under-humans, the only good thing I was able to say to myself at the end of the day was that I survived another day. I dunno... I kinda missed the choice to really influence people. Instead my party members had a fixed morale and I had to either satisfy their whims or they critizise me on every single step. I felt in lack of impact on the world and the party as highly frustrating.

The other thing, when I play, I am a Jedi. Sounds silly, but thats how I play. I dont kill one who yields. I dont do revenge. I even let that slaver of the city elves live and didnt slay him when he yileded. I didnt want to kill  Loghain, tho he prolly deserved it when he yielded to me, but I let Alistair have his revenge... I sorta talked myself out of it like, he is king and its his decision. Still... I was not comfortable with it. And playing goody good was sort of pointless.

And then those Wardens! I can honestly say I hated them from every angle. Forcing people unknowing into service, sacrificing them to demons - heck they didnt even TRY to find other ways! And there are other ways. That evil mage in the keep found some and Morrigan knew another, so there is good chance with some more research there may be other ways. They NEVER ever cared for the reasons why there are demons, why those old gods now where evil and what really was behind all of it! They were totally complacent fighting the evil, and with methods I can not agree with. That is my reason No1 NOT to keep playing new expansion packs and prolly not new games, because I would have rather fought against the Wardens and their more than questionable methods. In NO way I would support that and be content with those solutions! For me the means is never ever justified by the result! NOT EVER.

My skepticism on the doings of men was mostly like Morrigans. I always thought, hey werent those Draons once good gods, and isnt there another way to restore balance or at least SEEK to restore them instead of just blindly trying to kill them? This entire black white thinking, the evil Blight... sorry I am not into that. Things are not made evil. There are reasons and biographies. And WHAT is that human obsession to always want to kill Dragons?? Man, I love Dragons, I see them as great symbols of wisdom and good... just another thing to make me feel "meh" about all of it.


So I finished it, made Alister King... and boy I hated that whiney child of a man - and in my end I went away with Zev and left the Wardens behind. May the world now turn on without me, for I am done with that dark organization and that bleak kingdom and that world where I have no chance to bring good.


EDIT: Oh and this ABYSMAL church! I swear if I could I wouild have disbanded with bunch of hypocrites. I am sure it is their fault the Old Gods were tainted and now they spread this lie about the so called Maker! Just smells rotten to me and as a result I was cross with half of the world's characters.

I know what you feel and that's mainly why I was dispointed with the expansion because i expected my warden to lgo through quest to "hunt" the architech so she could be able to understand more about the whole Blight story instead of just taking the decision to kill it or not. <_<

I've already say a grey warden is just a poor soldier who can't evolve into a true hero because he will be forever not interested in the "story" and just bash mobs.

[Herr Uhl]

klarabella wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Edit: Compare this to how Zevran and Oghren (good analogies imo) deal with their pasts. None of them whine.

No, Zevran loves to kill people and Oghren drinks himself into stupor. So much better.

I didn't say that it was better, but that Alastair doesn't whine is simply not true. He is by far the most whiny partymember. Well, the dog literally whines on a few occasions, but you see what I'm getting at.

They (Zev and Oghren) don't look for someone to save them in the same way.

Edit: I didn't feel like defending Zev since I had a feeling that someone else with better insight would do that.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 03 avril 2010 - 04:07 .

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Edit: Compare this to how Zevran and Oghren (good analogies imo) deal with
their pasts. None of them whine.

No, Zevran loves to kill people and Oghren drinks himself into stupor. So much better.

Hmmmm, Zevran was raised to be an assassin from the age of 7.  And it gave him a better life than he otherwise could ahve had.  A wh*rhouse boy until sold to the Crows, then tortured as a part of his training to make sure he was strong enough...  Being an assassin was all he knew.  But even when he tells you about his past, there is no whining there at all.  He actually jokes about being tortured. 

His taking pride in being an assassin makes sense -- he excelled at it, and it was what he was raised to be.  No whining there at all, and no making excuses either.

Oghren actually does whine a bit, but he passes out so it's only for short amounts of time.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 avril 2010 - 04:07 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

elikal71 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

elikal71 wrote...
Everyone was a whiney or ****ing "oh I dont agree with that." Heck, even when I took down the Kings body in Ostagar to burn him and NOT let him rot, Zev and Morrigan disagreed with that - for whatever reasons. If I want a walking jury I'd go to one of those TV shows!

I would expect that, as in KOTOR, I could, over time, influence my companions. And Alistair was the WORST of them all! He CRITIZISED EVERY DAMN thing I decided, but he never wanted to be responsible at any time. I mean, step back, let others make the tough decision, but they STOP the heck ****ing about everything I decide. Its one or the other. He didnt want to lead the Wardens, he didnt want to be King, the only thing he wanted in Loghain dead, so the only time he DID decide anything was revenge. Great. And he, Wynne and that Bard girl with all her Maker mumbling. Maker this, Maker that... well if he unleashes those demons on men, he cant be that great in my book, but they called ME evil when I dont slay a dragon and his followers (in the Andraste cave) JUST BECAUSE HE IS THERE. What hypocrisy is THAT?

Whatta walloftext!

I'd vote for a patch that implements the possibility of Alistair taking charge when your approval is low enough.
"I want to talk to you RIGHT NOW! YOU are BAD and EVIL and I can't watch you sully the name and honor of our order any longer. SOD IT - I'm the leader now. Sten, bind him! Let's do this right."

After that you are allowed to watch the rest of the game in one long cutscene.

I'm so in love with this idea.

That would be highly impractical. I didnt expect that. What I DO expect, is that someone who CONSTANTLY says he hates to decide keeps his trap shut when others decide and not whine about every step of it. As General Patton used to say: lead me, follow me or get out of my way.

I dont need my party members to be puppets, but I think I should be able to see things my way, especially when they are all so eager to let me decide all the time, even when it is totally ridiculous. WHY does everyone ask me what should happen to Loghain? WHY? I am not judge or jury, I am even a foreigner, being a Dalish. Don't they have courts for that or laws? Why are those decisions always my whim and then everyone and everyone's mom complains how I decide. Thats absurd. I dont need mindless followers, but I want, as in KOTOR, that over time I can influence them and not every coffee pot and place left side of my spoon rather than right gets me -5 of someone for a lack of etiquette.

What, you don't want followers to have opinions? That they should always come around to your way of thinking? Sounds like you want a bunch of malleable puppets to me.

And if you are complaining that you can't do "good", yet Alistair is disapproving of you at everystep, then obviously your view of "good" is pretty different from what alot of people consider good. Because Alistair really disapproves mostly when you perform outright ruthless, cold-hearted actions. And, if you are losing approval by saying you hate Duncan or the Wardens, well, what do you expect him to do. Cheer? They were his surrogate family. Do you expect someone to cheer you on if you start bad mouthing loved ones who are dead and gone? Or agree with you because you think theyw ere losers?

I prefer characters with strong personalities that do have opinions of their own, differing from mine. And I like them voicing those opinions and disapproving. They are going to share their opinions, and their view of you will change  They are people with their own minds. Don't like it? Then tell everyone to get lost and go solo. Alistair you're stuck with until Landsmeet, but after that, you can get Loghain if you really want him. You wanna talk about someone who disapproves of "doing good" your style? You'll just love Loggy boy, then.