65 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

ejoslin wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Edit: Compare this to how Zevran and Oghren (good analogies imo) deal with
their pasts. None of them whine.

No, Zevran loves to kill people and Oghren drinks himself into stupor. So much better.

Hmmmm, Zevran was raised to be an assassin from the age of 7.  And it gave him a better life than he otherwise could ahve had.  A wh*rhouse boy until sold to the Crows, then tortured as a part of his training to make sure he was strong enough...  Being an assassin was all he knew.  But even when he tells you about his past, there is no whining there at all.  He actually jokes about being tortured. 

His taking pride in being an assassin makes sense -- he excelled at it, and it was what he was raised to be.  No whining there at all, and no making excuses either.

Oghren actually does whine a bit, but he passes out so it's only for short amounts of time.

LOL I believe his line is "OH those things never happened to me" when you tell him "thats terrible!"  Quite obviously they did but he brushes it off.

[ejoslin]

sylvanaerie wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Edit: Compare this to how Zevran and Oghren (good analogies imo) deal with
their pasts. None of them whine.

No, Zevran loves to kill people and Oghren drinks himself into stupor. So much better.

Hmmmm, Zevran was raised to be an assassin from the age of 7.  And it gave him a better life than he otherwise could ahve had.  A wh*rhouse boy until sold to the Crows, then tortured as a part of his training to make sure he was strong enough...  Being an assassin was all he knew.  But even when he tells you about his past, there is no whining there at all.  He actually jokes about being tortured. 

His taking pride in being an assassin makes sense -- he excelled at it, and it was what he was raised to be.  No whining there at all, and no making excuses either.

Oghren actually does whine a bit, but he passes out so it's only for short amounts of time.

LOL I believe his line is "OH those things never happened to me" when you tell him "thats terrible!"  Quite obviously they did but he brushes it off.

Yep, that's it!

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...

Oghren actually does whine a bit, but he passes out so it's only for short amounts of time.

He only whines when he is drunk, but that is close to all of the time though. The difference is that he seldom looks for a shoulder to cry on in the same way as Alastair does.

I don't remember any real whinefest by Oghren though, I usually end up on his good side, so feel free to point me at his instances of whining to you.

[Addai]

So, basically, OP, you just don't like DA's approval system or share the morality system of the in-game characters. You're free to RP your character as you see fit, but the lore is what it is, and is not going to bend in order to accommodate Jedi values. Because that is a different game.



So for your own sake of fun, learn to live with it or go play KOTOR. You don't need to have your NPC companions' approval high. If you don't like them, you don't like them. It can make for a more interesting story and more challenging gameplay when you let the chips fall where they fall.

[Befit]

Jawson wrote...

elikal71 wrote...

Jawson wrote...

"And then those Wardens! I can honestly say I hated them from every angle. Forcing people unknowing into service, sacrificing them to demons - heck they didnt even TRY to find other ways! And there are other ways. That evil mage in the keep found some and Morrigan knew another, so there is good chance with some more research there may be other ways. They NEVER ever cared for the reasons why there are demons, why those old gods now where evil and what really was behind all of it! They were totally complacent fighting the evil, and with methods I can not agree with. That is my reason No1 NOT to keep playing new expansion packs and prolly not new games, because I would have rather fought against the Wardens and their more than questionable methods. In NO way I would support that and be content with those solutions! For me the means is never ever justified by the result! NOT EVER."


LMAO, this is my favorite part, the warden's are evil, for fighting demons, and the mage who tortured his friends to death.is o.k. I'm pretty sure over the centuries, plenty of "research" was done to try and prevent something that could wipe out all life in the world. Why were the old gods evil? I dunno, because they decided to be I guess, who cares? Wait let me guess, the Maker and the church were the real bad guys. You would defend evil that would rip off your face as soon, as look at you, but condemn those who by the very act of joining give up their lives to save humanity. You my friend have issues.

Well I dont buy this "they just are evil" crap. The Wardens didnt waste a minute on the idea that something happened that turned those Dragons evil, something that created the Blight, and work on healing THAT. And no all means are justified by the end, like dooming people by taking them into the Grey Warden, unknowing what that means. Its too much!

Maybe they are Gods, maybe they were here first and humans are the ursurper? Then what? Maybe if humans are to blame for what happend in the past? We dont know anything about the cause and I was deeply frustrated that apparently none did, save the holier than thou Chantry, explaining it was the will of the Maker for human sins. Yeeess... that sounds believable. Sorry if I need more then "here is a sword, these a the bad guys, kill them all" for going and doing that. It's just not enough.

*sigh*  So what would all this matter?  Say it was the Human's fault, or any of your other senerios?  What difference would that make?  Unless Morrigan had a time travel spell, it makes no difference, the situation is, what it is.  So when someone breaks into your house and starts raping, and killing, you would stand there, and try to figure out what happened to this person, to make him so hateful, and callous?  Or would you do what you could to save yourself, and your family?  DAO is FAR from perfect, but it is also far from a hack and slash.  Also I like the angle they took with the chantry, most fantasy games have the usual seudo pagan kind of faiths, this game took a world in transition into a predominant monotheism.  I found it interesting, different characters embraced it, others resisted strongly, you  had these options as well, don't believe in the Maker, you can tell them that.   You say you don't want reality , but it sounds like your personal belief system is getting in the way of you enjoying a game.  It's just that, a game.

That's what i said! and as for the party, these people aren't simply gona give up thier world and personal views just cuz YOU claim it would be better if they changed it. If you tried you would sound like the chantry "CHANGE YOUR WAYS OR ELSE!!". besides isn't it nicer to respect and understand another's view rather than convincing your's is better?

[Serissia]

elikal71 wrote...

I dont know when people started to think that dark and gloomy was "realistic". I guess at the same time when "all brown and grey colours" was thought to be "realistic". But for the news: if I want realism, I already HAVE a reality! When I play a game I dont need ALL roses and unicorns, but I need the chance to make it mostly good. Like, say, in KOTOR. Or Mass Effect. You can't say ME was a rainbow game! Really. But you could make it good. And your party wasn't all critizising you all the frigging way, and in DA! EVERYONE had an opinion about every damn fart, and I hated the DA party for it.

Everyone was a whiney or ****ing "oh I dont agree with that." Heck, even when I took down the Kings body in Ostagar to burn him and NOT let him rot, Zev and Morrigan disagreed with that - for whatever reasons. If I want a walking jury I'd go to one of those TV shows!

I would expect that, as in KOTOR, I could, over time, influence my companions. And Alistair was the WORST of them all! He CRITIZISED EVERY DAMN thing I decided, but he never wanted to be responsible at any time. I mean, step back, let others make the tough decision, but they STOP the heck ****ing about everything I decide. Its one or the other. He didnt want to lead the Wardens, he didnt want to be King, the only thing he wanted in Loghain dead, so the only time he DID decide anything was revenge. Great. And he, Wynne and that Bard girl with all her Maker mumbling. Maker this, Maker that... well if he unleashes those demons on men, he cant be that great in my book, but they called ME evil when I dont slay a dragon and his followers (in the Andraste cave) JUST BECAUSE HE IS THERE. What hypocrisy is THAT?

Morrigan ****ed at me every damn time I tried to save anyone. "Must we save this xyz helpless innocent again... **** ****". YES WE MUST ITS FOR THE FRIGGING XP!

Really, Zev and Dog where the only ones I liked. Everyone else was a psycho nut, a hypocrite or a whiner in this "party", with whom I wouldn't stay a minute if not for a quest to save the world, which in the end was my only reason to actually BE there and not return to my wonderful Dalish home. At least my ppl got their home in the end, IF humans stick to that, that is. Which, as I know humans, they prolly WONT anyway.

If you're playing as "good" then Zev and Morrigan are poor party member choices.  The "good" team is Leliana (hardened or unhardened), Alistair and Wynne.  Shale and of course your dog are indifferent to everything (though Shale will stand with Caridin for obvious reasons).  Morrigan, Zev and Sten are better suited to assisting a morally questionable Warden. 

I've played various characters as "good" and never had the issues you've had.  I used Alistair (hardened), Leliana (hardened) and Wynne and I pretty much almost always had approval raises after every quest.  (The only reason I bother to harden Leliana is because if you do she assists with helping fight aganist the remaining darkspawn instead of assisting Brother Genitivi with the Urn at the end.)

As for the Urn and Andraste well, it's all a matter of prospective.  I'm personally not a religious person but I've known people that are and thus understand their actions.  If you also take into consideration the time peroid where this is taking place it does indeed make sense.  I believe I read that Ferelden is based off of mideavil England. 

All in all it's a roleplaying game and you are in control of your choices.  If you make a choice that upsets people then you have to deal with the consequences of your actions.  I've never played KOTOR or ME since SciFi type games hold no appeal to me but I throughly enjoyed DAO & DAA.  I've played many other fantasy rpgs throughout my life.  I think DAO has a good mix of postive, neutral and morally questiionable choices.  

[this isnt my name]

elikal71 wrote...

Jawson wrote...

"And then those Wardens! I can honestly say I hated them from every angle. Forcing people unknowing into service, sacrificing them to demons - heck they didnt even TRY to find other ways! And there are other ways. That evil mage in the keep found some and Morrigan knew another, so there is good chance with some more research there may be other ways. They NEVER ever cared for the reasons why there are demons, why those old gods now where evil and what really was behind all of it! They were totally complacent fighting the evil, and with methods I can not agree with. That is my reason No1 NOT to keep playing new expansion packs and prolly not new games, because I would have rather fought against the Wardens and their more than questionable methods. In NO way I would support that and be content with those solutions! For me the means is never ever justified by the result! NOT EVER."


LMAO, this is my favorite part, the warden's are evil, for fighting demons, and the mage who tortured his friends to death.is o.k. I'm pretty sure over the centuries, plenty of "research" was done to try and prevent something that could wipe out all life in the world. Why were the old gods evil? I dunno, because they decided to be I guess, who cares? Wait let me guess, the Maker and the church were the real bad guys. You would defend evil that would rip off your face as soon, as look at you, but condemn those who by the very act of joining give up their lives to save humanity. You my friend have issues.

Well I dont buy this "they just are evil" crap. The Wardens didnt waste a minute on the idea that something happened that turned those Dragons evil, something that created the Blight, and work on healing THAT. And no all means are justified by the end, like dooming people by taking them into the Grey Warden, unknowing what that means. Its too much!

Maybe they are Gods, maybe they were here first and humans are the ursurper? Then what? Maybe if humans are to blame for what happend in the past? We dont know anything about the cause and I was deeply frustrated that apparently none did, save the holier than thou Chantry, explaining it was the will of the Maker for human sins. Yeeess... that sounds believable. Sorry if I need more then "here is a sword, these a the bad guys, kill them all" for going and doing that. It's just not enough.

Let me see, unprovoked attacks on the surface, killing and injuring thousands...not evil at all. I think your onto something, in DA2 we should just stop in the middle of the battle and tear down some emotonal walls, maybe give the darkspawn a hug or two, a shoulder to cry on where they can talk about their problems...yeah.
I find it funny your saying everyone is hypocrites and they are bad then your trying to say the darkspawn are just misunderstood. Seriously play  another game, the darkspawn are the enemy, people have their own oppinions so obviously you shouldnt6 be playing the game, you should play some game where you stop evil monsters by talking to them during a fightscene, and all of your comanions are sheep who cling to your every word and have nooppinion of their own.
And its pretty good to say "look guys tring to kill you, if you want to live kill them" as a plot, you have a motive, just because you dont understand the others yet dosent make the game bad.
Hell you dont find out the reapers intentions until ME2. Maybe we can ask why they are doing this and help them in ME3, im sure they will be glad to answer after they complete their genocide cycle.

[Thalorin1919]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

In all my playthroughs he never comes across as whiny to me, the only time he is whiny is when he is un-hardened and he wont become King.

But before you harden him he will whine about becoming King, why? Because he was raised to think that he doesnt have the ability to handle important decisions and lead people, that why he doesnt want to become King. Once you harden him, he knows he can do that stuff.

See his angsting over childhood and Duncan, when your character usually had it worse. So, you lost the dude you have known for half a year? Good for you, I just had my entire family killed (for the most usual scenario, as most play human noble).

Edit: Compare this to how Zevran and Oghren (good analogies imo) deal with their pasts. None of them whine.

When he talks about Duncan, I dont really view it as "whining" more like mourning. Sure, he doesnt have it as bad as most PC's. But still, he has never had anything, Duncan was the first person who truly did care about him, and he lost that. Try looking at it from his point of view?

I dont find him whiny, more or less he just expresses his emotions more then others, but I find it understandable.

[ejoslin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Oghren actually does whine a bit, but he passes out so it's only for short amounts of time.

He only whines when he is drunk, but that is close to all of the time though. The difference is that he seldom looks for a shoulder to cry on in the same way as Alastair does.

I don't remember any real whinefest by Oghren though, I usually end up on his good side, so feel free to point me at his instances of whining to you.

*grin* You didn't disagree with me, Herr Uhl!

[ejoslin]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

When he talks about Duncan, I dont really view it as "whining" more like mourning. Sure, he doesnt have it as bad as most PC's. But still, he has never had anything, Duncan was the first person who truly did care about him, and he lost that. Try looking at it from his point of view?

I dont find him whiny, more or less he just expresses his emotions more then others, but I find it understandable.

Oh, Alistair whines a bit to Wynne for sure.  I don't find him incredibly whiny, but to say he doesn't whine isn't quite true either.

[Herr Uhl]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

When he talks about Duncan, I dont really view it as "whining" more like mourning. Sure, he doesnt have it as bad as most PC's. But still, he has never had anything, Duncan was the first person who truly did care about him, and he lost that. Try looking at it from his point of view?

I dont find him whiny, more or less he just expresses his emotions more then others, but I find it understandable.

Ok, I can take that. I just don't see it as such a big step from him going on about Duncan, his childhood where nobody loved him for who he was and his self-esteem problems pretty much paints him as whiny to many.

I say that he whines, but I see why and don't really mind it. But I see it as whining nonetheless.

[AntiChri5]

OP your arguments are all over the bloody place and do not seem to hold any consistency.



Anyway you lost all credibility when you said you spared the Tevinter slaver because you dont like killing. That is like telling the police to stop doing their job because the rapists might get hurt.

[elikal71]

Serissia wrote...

elikal71 wrote...

I dont know when people started to think that dark and gloomy was "realistic". I guess at the same time when "all brown and grey colours" was thought to be "realistic". But for the news: if I want realism, I already HAVE a reality! When I play a game I dont need ALL roses and unicorns, but I need the chance to make it mostly good. Like, say, in KOTOR. Or Mass Effect. You can't say ME was a rainbow game! Really. But you could make it good. And your party wasn't all critizising you all the frigging way, and in DA! EVERYONE had an opinion about every damn fart, and I hated the DA party for it.

Everyone was a whiney or ****ing "oh I dont agree with that." Heck, even when I took down the Kings body in Ostagar to burn him and NOT let him rot, Zev and Morrigan disagreed with that - for whatever reasons. If I want a walking jury I'd go to one of those TV shows!

I would expect that, as in KOTOR, I could, over time, influence my companions. And Alistair was the WORST of them all! He CRITIZISED EVERY DAMN thing I decided, but he never wanted to be responsible at any time. I mean, step back, let others make the tough decision, but they STOP the heck ****ing about everything I decide. Its one or the other. He didnt want to lead the Wardens, he didnt want to be King, the only thing he wanted in Loghain dead, so the only time he DID decide anything was revenge. Great. And he, Wynne and that Bard girl with all her Maker mumbling. Maker this, Maker that... well if he unleashes those demons on men, he cant be that great in my book, but they called ME evil when I dont slay a dragon and his followers (in the Andraste cave) JUST BECAUSE HE IS THERE. What hypocrisy is THAT?

Morrigan ****ed at me every damn time I tried to save anyone. "Must we save this xyz helpless innocent again... **** ****". YES WE MUST ITS FOR THE FRIGGING XP!

Really, Zev and Dog where the only ones I liked. Everyone else was a psycho nut, a hypocrite or a whiner in this "party", with whom I wouldn't stay a minute if not for a quest to save the world, which in the end was my only reason to actually BE there and not return to my wonderful Dalish home. At least my ppl got their home in the end, IF humans stick to that, that is. Which, as I know humans, they prolly WONT anyway.

If you're playing as "good" then Zev and Morrigan are poor party member choices.  The "good" team is Leliana (hardened or unhardened), Alistair and Wynne.  Shale and of course your dog are indifferent to everything (though Shale will stand with Caridin for obvious reasons).  Morrigan, Zev and Sten are better suited to assisting a morally questionable Warden. 

I've played various characters as "good" and never had the issues you've had.  I used Alistair (hardened), Leliana (hardened) and Wynne and I pretty much almost always had approval raises after every quest.  (The only reason I bother to harden Leliana is because if you do she assists with helping fight aganist the remaining darkspawn instead of assisting Brother Genitivi with the Urn at the end.)

As for the Urn and Andraste well, it's all a matter of prospective.  I'm personally not a religious person but I've known people that are and thus understand their actions.  If you also take into consideration the time peroid where this is taking place it does indeed make sense.  I believe I read that Ferelden is based off of mideavil England. 

All in all it's a roleplaying game and you are in control of your choices.  If you make a choice that upsets people then you have to deal with the consequences of your actions.  I've never played KOTOR or ME since SciFi type games hold no appeal to me but I throughly enjoyed DAO & DAA.  I've played many other fantasy rpgs throughout my life.  I think DAO has a good mix of postive, neutral and morally questiionable choices.  

The point you overlook is, I have party members who have a Darwinistic view, like Morrigan and Zev, and those who have a Church-morale, like Wynn, Alistair and the Bard girl. My good just is not the narrow minded Church vision, nor can I condone the Darwinistic view of others. So I felt like having an entire party with whom I disagreed at most of the important steps. In my first play I always answered as I truthfully would, and after a short time I was hated by every single party member. Sure I could give them gifts, but maybe you guys understand that such a result is highly frustrating.

Again, I never want mindless puppets, but I do want the choice to alter my party members minds over time, by my example, by my highly evolved persuation skills and by the fact they all CHOOSE to follow me out of their own free will. Doesnt that count for anything? NOOO they are 100% adamant in their views, and they must critizise every ridiculous bit.


You guys can say what you want, I still did not like any of the characters nor anything going on in the world. Period. And when I liked every other Bioware game, it is for me to say that in MY PERSONAL VIEW Bioware made something wrong here. When I want followers who constantly whine, attack my decisions and critizise me I can have that for free in RL already, thank you very much.

[elikal71]

AntiChri5 wrote...

OP your arguments are all over the bloody place and do not seem to hold any consistency.

Anyway you lost all credibility when you said you spared the Tevinter slaver because you dont like killing. That is like telling the police to stop doing their job because the rapists might get hurt.

Sorry, thats bollocks. I dont kill in cold blood, I dont kill those who yield, and most important, if I catch a criminal I want a lawful court to decide his fate, not me playing judge, jury and executor in one! But there was no option to catch him and hand him to the authorities, so what? I wasnt police, and police does not KILL, they capture and bring people to a court and then a person is sentence by the letters of the law not some wanton vigilante! If I kill someone in self defense or in war, thats something else. But slaying anyone in cold blood who is defeated, no matter what he did is what I dont do. End of the line.

[sylvanaerie]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

In all my playthroughs he never comes across as whiny to me, the only time he is whiny is when he is un-hardened and he wont become King.

But before you harden him he will whine about becoming King, why? Because he was raised to think that he doesnt have the ability to handle important decisions and lead people, that why he doesnt want to become King. Once you harden him, he knows he can do that stuff.

See his angsting over childhood and Duncan, when your character usually had it worse. So, you lost the dude you have known for half a year? Good for you, I just had my entire family killed (for the most usual scenario, as most play human noble).

Edit: Compare this to how Zevran and Oghren (good analogies imo) deal with their pasts. None of them whine.

When he talks about Duncan, I dont really view it as "whining" more like mourning. Sure, he doesnt have it as bad as most PC's. But still, he has never had anything, Duncan was the first person who truly did care about him, and he lost that. Try looking at it from his point of view?

I dont find him whiny, more or less he just expresses his emotions more then others, but I find it understandable.

I don't find him whiny either.  I think he just tends to wear his heart on his sleeve more than a lot of characters.  If you look for it you can say most any of the NPCs whine if you don't like them.  I find Loghain's attitude at the Landsmeet particularly whiny but others would disagree.  Its all in the perspective of how you see them. I don't like him so I see his behavior as childish and whiny.  As I like Alistair I tend to ignore the whineyness in his voice and try to understand where he is coming from.

I would defend most if not all of the NPCs in the game.  I enjoy most of them and understand everyone can have a bad day.  I have had more than my fair share of bad days and probably sound whiny to my family.  But I get over it.  Alistair gets over it too eventually.  

Time knowing someone doesn't mean diddlysquat.  So what if he only knew Duncan 6 months.  Duncan was the first person to see Alistair for himself, to see something besides the cast off bastard prince.  Duncan gave him a chance to be something else, something more than bastard prince or templar.  Repeatedly he has had any chance of a family squashed. First by his own father (who never acknowleged him) and while I admit I know WHY he did this that doesn't change the fact that he did.  His mother dies when he's very young and he is raised by Eamon who reminds the boy that he is an inconvenience, a threat to Cailan's rule.  That he doesn't out and out hate the man is a wonder to me because i despise Eamon for Al's sake.  Isolde (the only woman who could possibly have been something of a mother to him) treated him like dirt and kicked him out of the castle into a life he felt was a waste and he despised.   The level of hypocrisy in that woman exceeds all bearable limits.

So yea I don't see his behavior as whiny.  I see it as grieving for the first person who liked him for just being Alistair.

I think had Teagan had more a hand in his upbringing things would have been much different.  Its rather telling that among all the Guerrin's it is ONLY Teagan who seems genuinely happy to see Alistair alive and well in Redcliffe.  And I don't get the impression its because Alistair means another body to defend the village. This reaction is prior to even discussing the village's problems.  I think its genuine pleasure on his face.  Eamon's first thought is politically moving against Loghain using Alistair as his pawn and then has the GALL to say "the unthinkable has happened" as if the very idea offends his sensibilities.  RIGHT in front of Alistair.

Is it any wonder the poor boy is so messed up? In his own way he has had it as bad as any of the other companions in the game.  No one has had a cushy life, even the Human Noble Warden who has just had their family murdered.  I am just saying different people respond differently and Alistair is a very different person by the time he reaches the Landsmeet (If you choose to help him become such). 

[sylvanaerie]

elikal71 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

OP your arguments are all over the bloody place and do not seem to hold any consistency.

Anyway you lost all credibility when you said you spared the Tevinter slaver because you dont like killing. That is like telling the police to stop doing their job because the rapists might get hurt.

Sorry, thats bollocks. I dont kill in cold blood, I dont kill those who yield, and most important, if I catch a criminal I want a lawful court to decide his fate, not me playing judge, jury and executor in one! But there was no option to catch him and hand him to the authorities, so what? I wasnt police, and police does not KILL, they capture and bring people to a court and then a person is sentence by the letters of the law not some wanton vigilante! If I kill someone in self defense or in war, thats something else. But slaying anyone in cold blood who is defeated, no matter what he did is what I dont do. End of the line.

In this instance the Landsmeet had turned it over to you, abiding by the PC's decision. Had you chosen to spare him the only one who would object would have been Alistair. The Landsmeet was the Judge and Jury, you were the executioner of their will.

*Edited because I am an idiot who was reading this half arsed instead of what was said*

Thought your post was about Loghain yielding.  YOU HAVE to be kidding me that you thought Caladrius was yielding for any other reason than to save his own skin.  He only yields because he was beaten (and during the fight he sacrifices his men to heal himself or he sure as heck did in the fights I have had with him.  Its disgusting.  He even offers to sacrifice those innocents in the room so you can become more powerful thinking you will go for something like that. Surely you can see this man was the most vile sort of cockroach who doesn't even deserve mercy of any kind???

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 03 avril 2010 - 11:25 .

[Befit]

elikal71 wrote...

Serissia wrote...

elikal71 wrote...

I dont know when people started to think that dark and gloomy was "realistic". I guess at the same time when "all brown and grey colours" was thought to be "realistic". But for the news: if I want realism, I already HAVE a reality! When I play a game I dont need ALL roses and unicorns, but I need the chance to make it mostly good. Like, say, in KOTOR. Or Mass Effect. You can't say ME was a rainbow game! Really. But you could make it good. And your party wasn't all critizising you all the frigging way, and in DA! EVERYONE had an opinion about every damn fart, and I hated the DA party for it.

Everyone was a whiney or ****ing "oh I dont agree with that." Heck, even when I took down the Kings body in Ostagar to burn him and NOT let him rot, Zev and Morrigan disagreed with that - for whatever reasons. If I want a walking jury I'd go to one of those TV shows!

I would expect that, as in KOTOR, I could, over time, influence my companions. And Alistair was the WORST of them all! He CRITIZISED EVERY DAMN thing I decided, but he never wanted to be responsible at any time. I mean, step back, let others make the tough decision, but they STOP the heck ****ing about everything I decide. Its one or the other. He didnt want to lead the Wardens, he didnt want to be King, the only thing he wanted in Loghain dead, so the only time he DID decide anything was revenge. Great. And he, Wynne and that Bard girl with all her Maker mumbling. Maker this, Maker that... well if he unleashes those demons on men, he cant be that great in my book, but they called ME evil when I dont slay a dragon and his followers (in the Andraste cave) JUST BECAUSE HE IS THERE. What hypocrisy is THAT?

Morrigan ****ed at me every damn time I tried to save anyone. "Must we save this xyz helpless innocent again... **** ****". YES WE MUST ITS FOR THE FRIGGING XP!

Really, Zev and Dog where the only ones I liked. Everyone else was a psycho nut, a hypocrite or a whiner in this "party", with whom I wouldn't stay a minute if not for a quest to save the world, which in the end was my only reason to actually BE there and not return to my wonderful Dalish home. At least my ppl got their home in the end, IF humans stick to that, that is. Which, as I know humans, they prolly WONT anyway.

If you're playing as "good" then Zev and Morrigan are poor party member choices.  The "good" team is Leliana (hardened or unhardened), Alistair and Wynne.  Shale and of course your dog are indifferent to everything (though Shale will stand with Caridin for obvious reasons).  Morrigan, Zev and Sten are better suited to assisting a morally questionable Warden. 

I've played various characters as "good" and never had the issues you've had.  I used Alistair (hardened), Leliana (hardened) and Wynne and I pretty much almost always had approval raises after every quest.  (The only reason I bother to harden Leliana is because if you do she assists with helping fight aganist the remaining darkspawn instead of assisting Brother Genitivi with the Urn at the end.)

As for the Urn and Andraste well, it's all a matter of prospective.  I'm personally not a religious person but I've known people that are and thus understand their actions.  If you also take into consideration the time peroid where this is taking place it does indeed make sense.  I believe I read that Ferelden is based off of mideavil England. 

All in all it's a roleplaying game and you are in control of your choices.  If you make a choice that upsets people then you have to deal with the consequences of your actions.  I've never played KOTOR or ME since SciFi type games hold no appeal to me but I throughly enjoyed DAO & DAA.  I've played many other fantasy rpgs throughout my life.  I think DAO has a good mix of postive, neutral and morally questiionable choices.  

The point you overlook is, I have party members who have a Darwinistic view, like Morrigan and Zev, and those who have a Church-morale, like Wynn, Alistair and the Bard girl. My good just is not the narrow minded Church vision, nor can I condone the Darwinistic view of others. So I felt like having an entire party with whom I disagreed at most of the important steps. In my first play I always answered as I truthfully would, and after a short time I was hated by every single party member. Sure I could give them gifts, but maybe you guys understand that such a result is highly frustrating.

Again, I never want mindless puppets, but I do want the choice to alter my party members minds over time, by my example, by my highly evolved persuation skills and by the fact they all CHOOSE to follow me out of their own free will. Doesnt that count for anything? NOOO they are 100% adamant in their views, and they must critizise every ridiculous bit.


You guys can say what you want, I still did not like any of the characters nor anything going on in the world. Period. And when I liked every other Bioware game, it is for me to say that in MY PERSONAL VIEW Bioware made something wrong here. When I want followers who constantly whine, attack my decisions and critizise me I can have that for free in RL already, thank you very much.

Aren't you 100% adamant in your views?why should your party members be any different? becuz want to be proven right? or want a party of like minded minions?
.And they only follow you cuz half feel morally obligated to stop the blight and you're the only one who dosn't have their own problems or fighting the civil war. and the other part have nothing better to do or have nowhere else to go.

[AntiChri5]

elikal71 wrote...


The other thing, when I play, I am a Jedi. Sounds silly, but thats how I play. I dont kill one who yields. I dont do revenge. I even let that slaver of the city elves live and didnt slay him when he yileded. I didnt want to kill  Loghain, tho he prolly deserved it when he yielded to me, but I let Alistair have his revenge... I sorta talked myself out of it like, he is king and its his decision. Still... I was not comfortable with it. And playing goody good was sort of pointless.

This is what i am referring to. Once you kill his gaurds you have a coupole of options one is simply "let him go" There is no option to lock him up because if you refuse to let him go he fights back and dies.......you let someone who destroyed hundreds of lives go so that you could feel like a hero with untainted honour.

[AntiChri5]

elikal71 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

OP your arguments are all over the bloody place and do not seem to hold any consistency.

Anyway you lost all credibility when you said you spared the Tevinter slaver because you dont like killing. That is like telling the police to stop doing their job because the rapists might get hurt.

Sorry, thats bollocks. I dont kill in cold blood, I dont kill those who yield, and most important, if I catch a criminal I want a lawful court to decide his fate, not me playing judge, jury and executor in one! But there was no option to catch him and hand him to the authorities, so what? I wasnt police, and police does not KILL, they capture and bring people to a court and then a person is sentence by the letters of the law not some wanton vigilante! If I kill someone in self defense or in war, thats something else. But slaying anyone in cold blood who is defeated, no matter what he did is what I dont do. End of the line.

When it is stop them or let them go you let them go?

[zahra]

Short version : You don't like NPCs with personality.



Good to know.

[taine]

This is the most bizarre post I've read here in a while. And that's saying something.

[elikal71]

zahra wrote...

Short version : You don't like NPCs with personality.

Good to know.

*facepalm*

I guess its my own fault trying to explain something complex in a GAME FORUM...

[AntiChri5]

Seriously there is no consistency or logic to your posts.



You think destroying the Urn is the good guy option? Really?

[zahra]

elikal71 wrote...

zahra wrote...

Short version : You don't like NPCs with personality.

Good to know.

*facepalm*

I guess its my own fault trying to explain something complex in a GAME FORUM...

I think you overestimate the complexity of your statements.

You would like the ability to "change" the personality of your NPCs, make them see things your way, perhaps become Dalish Jedi Good-Enforcers of The World themselves. To a certain extent, in DA:O, you can influence the growth of your companions (giving Alistair a spine, and making Leliana less of a Chantry freak), and usually there is the option of convincing companions into agreeing with you despite their initial protests (you need high Coercion).

But if you want more than what the game has to offer in terms of influencing characters then my remark was spot on, you dislike characters with "real personality", who have their own core values that they refuse to change.

This is your opinion however, and you are totally welcome to it. I hope you don't see any of my posts as argumentative, I am simply stating my opinion on your opinion. We can happily disagree (unlike your ideal NPCs I will not succumb to your way of thinking easily lol)