41 réponses à ce sujet

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

 I honestly didn't think I could despise Loghain anymore after my second play through of DAO, but holy **** after near finishing The Stolen Throne I've been proved exponentially wrong. I won't spoil anything but anyone who read the book probably knows what I'm referring to. 

Honestly, he's a goddamn sociopath. 

[Mystiana]

I can completely understand why he did what he did, tho I may not agree with it.



The funny thing is I feel kinda the opposite that you do. After reading The Stolen Throne I realize he's not such a "villain" but is a man who does what he feels he has to do for the greater good, no matter how dirty his hands may get. He's willing to do the hard things that no body else is willing to, and for that I can respect him as a char.

[Viz79]

What? This shows how wonderful the writing in those novels and the game are when people can have such different perspectives. After Stolen Throne, all I could think was that Loghain was a 'true' hero. And Calling reinforced that. I have read Stolen Throne twice now and if you are thinking about the same moment I am, there was a real reason for Loghain's actions and I agree with him. Loghain in truth always had a reason for this decisions - he isn't the 'Hero of RIver Dane' for no reason. And as Mystiana says, heroes often have to do what no one else will to ensure the right thing happens. And Loghain gives a LOT up in Stolen Throne for Ferelden.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

The situation with Katriel had such huge effects though. To do what he did, knowingly, is unforgivable. Just because he did it for the "greater good" doesn't negate his actions, the ends never justify the means.

Modifié par TonyTheBossDanza123, 03 avril 2010 - 01:35 .

[Mystiana]

yet this event gave Maric the stones he truly needed to become a great king



A king even moreso has to make impossible decisions for the greater good...it doesn't matter what his wants and desires are, his personal feelings. The law is the law, and if he can't even follow it how can he expect his people to? Also considering how the land was in turmoil, they really needed a strong king to put things right or it would just fall again into enemy hands.

[qalan]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...the ends never justify the means.

Saying the 'ends never justify the means' is as wrongheaded as thinking the 'ends always justify the means'.  Indeed, it's Loghain's temdancy to view the world in such an absolutist. 'black and white' way that is his greatest weakness.  And before you say Loghain's actions regarding Katriel were "unforgivable" you might want to consider that Maric does seem to endorse/forgive Loghain's actions and continues to rely on him throughout his reign...

Personally, I found Loghain to be the most interesting character encountered so far in the Dragon Age saga in part because his greatest strength is also his greatest weakness.  His determination/willpower is like a force of nature that wears down his opponents and carries his allies through impossible odds.  But it's a strength that few people can match - Maric, Rowan, Anora are perhaps the only people Loghain has met with the strength of character/personality to stand up to him and actually get him to consider/reconsider his actions. 

Unfortunately, at Ostagar, there's no one present with the strength of character to deflect him from the course of action that he chooses and thus his great strength of will that saw the Ferelden resistance through to victory over Orlais becomes a tragic flaw...

[Dansayshi]

Does he really do anything bad? Except for Katriel, but hell, would you of forgiven her? She did pretty much murder every rebel soldier at west hill and dont forget Arl Byron and his contingent too. If you dont see her as a villain...

[Bfler]

The killing of Katriel doesn't fit the character of Maric. Nobody is able to change from a childish, trustful person into hardened, sad individual within some moments.

[DIrishB]

Bfler wrote...

The killing of Katriel doesn't fit the character of Maric. Nobody is able to change from a childish, trustful person into hardened, sad individual within some moments.

But the change didn't happen over moments...it happened over the course of the entire book.  From watching his Mother killed in front of his eyes and killing his first man all in one night, to the events of the rebellion (losing battles, watching friends and soldiers die, killing men, forced to make impossible decisions), and the final culmination of Maric killing Katriel...it was a believable transition to me.

Consider, Maric by the end of the book isn't the childish, trusting, and care-free character he is at the beginning...I think most of that is a facade (the joking and lighthearted nature of the character), either as a defense mechanism or as a lighter side of what he's really feeling.

But it seems like you forgot about the entire gamut of character development concerning Maric after the first few pages.

[AntiChri5]

Did you not notice what happened?



He was deliberately and coldly seduced into loving a woman that was trying to destroy him and everything he values the whole time. Katriel almost destroyed everything his mother worked so long and hard for (having to literally beg at some points) and everything he worked for as well as killing Rowans father and many many good people. A free Ferelden with a good king means everything to him.

[Bfler]

I read the book but in my eyes the character didn't change very much until that moment. He was a person that you can describe as a good friend, ready for a joke in every moment, which helps old grandmas. Then in one moment he became a sad person that is able to kill someone in rage. I don't believe that something like this is possible.

Modifié par Bfler, 03 avril 2010 - 06:47 .

[AntiChri5]

That was justice.

[Mystiana]

I could see him slowly changing throughout the book, each hurdle making him stronger...Katriel was simply the one thing that was drastic enough to finish the job and turn him into a true king

[Ulicus]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

The situation with Katriel had such huge effects though. To do what he did, knowingly, is unforgivable. Just because he did it for the "greater good" doesn't negate his actions, the ends never justify the means.

Ahem. The ends don't always justify the means. Never say never.

Edit: N/M. Qalan beat me to the punch.

Qalan wrote...

Personally, I found Loghain to be the most interesting character
encountered so far in the Dragon Age saga in part because his greatest
strength is also his greatest weakness.  His determination/willpower is
like a force of nature that wears down his opponents and carries his
allies through impossible odds.  But it's a strength that few people
can match - Maric, Rowan, Anora are perhaps the only people Loghain has
met with the strength of character/personality to stand up to him and
actually get him to consider/reconsider his actions. 

Unfortunately,
at Ostagar, there's no one present with the strength of character to
deflect him from the course of action that he chooses and thus his
great strength of will that saw the Ferelden resistance through to
victory over Orlais becomes a tragic flaw...

Well put Qalan, though -- regarding what I've bolded -- I think you're being too generous towards Anora to give her a place amongst Maric, Rowan and -- eventually -- the Warden.

As Loghain says, should the Warden defeat him in combat:

"There's a strength in you I've not seen since Maric died. I yield"

But Anora? While Loghain no doubt believes that she is and will be a good Queen, he marginalises her completely and she's incapable of swaying him in any direction he doesn't want to be moving.

Modifié par Ulicus, 03 avril 2010 - 10:35 .

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Dansayshi wrote...

Does he really do anything bad? Except for Katriel, but hell, would you of forgiven her? She did pretty much murder every rebel soldier at west hill and dont forget Arl Byron and his contingent too. If you dont see her as a villain...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Did you not notice what happened?

He was deliberately and coldly seduced into loving a woman that was trying to destroy him and everything he values the whole time. Katriel almost destroyed everything his mother worked so long and hard for (having to literally beg at some points) and everything he worked for as well as killing Rowans father and many many good people. A free Ferelden with a good king means everything to him.

And yet she truely regrets those actions. It is a common misconception that we can equate one life to another, that Katriel's life was less valuable then all the soldiers she killed, but who is to say that is true? Perhaps her destiny was to assassinate Meghren and end the war 3 years earlier, she was indeed capable of it. Would not the lives she saved then redeem her from the murders?

And what about saving Maric after West Hill? Surely they would have lost at Gwaren had she not led them to the Deep Roads, enabling them to get the dwarven support that they needed for both Gwaren and River Dane.

Her pure regret of her actions shows that she isn't a bad person, just a person who made mistakes and wishes to seek redemption. Are we all not entitled to that, or should we be judged instantly for our actions? People say that her death is justice, but that's not justice. Did killing her bring back the soldiers of West Hill? Did killing her save any lives? Did killing her even stop people from feeling pain?

As another example, what about Sten? Sten brutally murdered a family in a fit of rage. He didn't deny it, he accepted his blame and expressed regret for what he did. Did he deserve to be left in the cage at Lothering only to be killed by Darkspawn? I ask, anyone who says that Katriels murder was justice, would you leave Sten in his cage if you were the Warden? 

I would gladly take 1 murder who truely regretted his actions and wished to seek redemption over 5 Loghains any day. Loghain doesn't seem truely capable of regret. He rationalizes his actions to justify them, but that doesn't truely justify them. His character is cold and ruthless, and were he not to meet Maric I have no doubt he would be responsible for many deaths both under his command at at his command.


Edit: As an after thought, to the people who say that it made Maric a true king, I beg to differ. I wouldn't even say it made him a good king. Was he a good king? Yes, but we are incapable of saying how he would have ruled without losing his innocence. The viewpoint that people are cruel and selfish and that he must be hardened to the truth of the world is a very pragmatic one, and yet the greatest men in our history have been idealists. The ability to dream for a better world without ruling out its possibility enables you to strive for said world. Idealism is always striving for improvement where as pragmatism is destined to become weighed down in cynicism and coldness.

Modifié par TonyTheBossDanza123, 04 avril 2010 - 12:10 .

[I Valente I]

Loghain has yet to convince me he is a worthy villain(or hero). However, I'm sure Loghain doesn't give a damn what I think



Logically his reasons are justified, but humans aren't all logic-robots! Loghain must have some serious drinking/distractions to help him fall asleep every night.

[qalan]

Ulicus wrote...
Well put Qalan, though -- regarding what I've bolded -- I think you're being too generous towards Anora to give her a place amongst Maric, Rowan and -- eventually -- the Warden.

As Loghain says, should the Warden defeat him in combat:

"There's a strength in you I've not seen since Maric died. I yield"

But Anora? While Loghain no doubt believes that she is and will be a good Queen, he marginalises her completely and she's incapable of swaying him in any direction he doesn't want to be moving.

SPOILERS AHEAD!




Talking with Loghain after the Landsmeet (if you go the secret companion route) makes it very apparent he regards her highly. His comments about Anora can be quite revealing - e.g. "In all seriousness, Anora is formidable, you should know that by now" and my personal favourite "She's capable and determined, but she'll sacrifice anything for her own goals. Remember that."  Sound like anyone we know?? 

You're right in that she's incapable of deflecting Loghain after Ostagar, which is why I said it was Loghain's tragedy that there was no one at Ostagar with the strength of character to deflect him.  To me, Ostagar is the point of no return for Loghain, the moment where he goes from being a hero to becoming a tragic figure whose (ultimately self-defeating) course is set. 

But IMO, Anora's inability to deflect Loghain after Ostagar is less a matter or willpower and more a matter of circumstance.  After all, there was nothing Anora could reasonably do to oppose Loghain - the nobles were divided and leaderless, the army (what was left of it) was firmly in Loghain's camp and Rendon Howe was hiring every mercenary he could get his hands on - Anora had no power base.  However when the Warden apparently becomes a big enough threat to engage Loghain with a possibility of success - Anora does everything she can to enlist/ally with that force and use it to bring Loghain down...

[jackkel dragon]

Mystiana wrote...

yet this event gave Maric the stones he truly needed to become a great king

A king even moreso has to make impossible decisions for the greater good...it doesn't matter what his wants and desires are, his personal feelings. The law is the law, and if he can't even follow it how can he expect his people to? Also considering how the land was in turmoil, they really needed a strong king to put things right or it would just fall again into enemy hands.

Dragon Age: Origins Spolier
This reminds me of "hardening" Alistair to become a better king. Of course, Alistair's hardening event looks like stubbing a toe compared to what Maric went through. Maric had three years of buildup to a life-changing decision, Alistair just gets a lesson after asking someone he doesn't know to like him.
*End Spoiler*

Dragon Age: The Stolen Throne Spoiler
I'm actually with Rowan (the character in the book) on what Loghain did, he should have given Maric the full story, just in case. Even my goody-two-shoes characters in Dragon Age don't like being lied to or having a character "forget" the full story. (A certain case of werewolves comes to mind...) Maric's desicion would have altered, but that may not have been as bad as Loghain forsaw. Still, Loghain took the "logical" route in his mind, to speed Maric on his way to understanding what being a king is like.

By the way... I finished this book for the first time last night. Loghain's methods are questionable, but they seemed to have the effect Loghain desired. On a side note, at least a certain elf remembered to leave a note with her private stash... (Came in handy to Maric on his way to becoming King.)

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

qalan wrote...

Ulicus wrote...
Well put Qalan, though -- regarding what I've bolded -- I think you're being too generous towards Anora to give her a place amongst Maric, Rowan and -- eventually -- the Warden.

As Loghain says, should the Warden defeat him in combat:

"There's a strength in you I've not seen since Maric died. I yield"

But Anora? While Loghain no doubt believes that she is and will be a good Queen, he marginalises her completely and she's incapable of swaying him in any direction he doesn't want to be moving.

SPOILERS AHEAD!




Talking with Loghain after the Landsmeet (if you go the secret companion route) makes it very apparent he regards her highly. His comments about Anora can be quite revealing - e.g. "In all seriousness, Anora is formidable, you should know that by now" and my personal favourite "She's capable and determined, but she'll sacrifice anything for her own goals. Remember that."  Sound like anyone we know?? 

You're right in that she's incapable of deflecting Loghain after Ostagar, which is why I said it was Loghain's tragedy that there was no one at Ostagar with the strength of character to deflect him.  To me, Ostagar is the point of no return for Loghain, the moment where he goes from being a hero to becoming a tragic figure whose (ultimately self-defeating) course is set. 

But IMO, Anora's inability to deflect Loghain after Ostagar is less a matter or willpower and more a matter of circumstance.  After all, there was nothing Anora could reasonably do to oppose Loghain - the nobles were divided and leaderless, the army (what was left of it) was firmly in Loghain's camp and Rendon Howe was hiring every mercenary he could get his hands on - Anora had no power base.  However when the Warden apparently becomes a big enough threat to engage Loghain with a possibility of success - Anora does everything she can to enlist/ally with that force and use it to bring Loghain down...

Whats the most tragic is that Loghain had potential to do great things, even greater than he accomplished, but his experiences with the Orlesians poisoned his mind leading to his actions at Ostagar and after. His hatred led to his refusal for support from Orlais, the very same support that Cailan would have waited for.

I am actually at a loss at what Loghain wanted to do at Ostagar, had Cailan followed his orders. It seems he wasn't happy either way.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

jackkel dragon wrote...

 On a side note, at least a certain elf remembered to leave a note with her private stash... (Came in handy to Maric on his way to becoming King.)

Indeed, I was happy to see that he didn't let his rage corrupt his love. It's just sad to see that Loghain managed to destroy so much in his blind logic, that the three of them, Rowan, Loghain, and Maric, were never the same as prior to that event. Indeed, that is perhaps what I sickens me most about Loghain, that he can rationalize his actions so much as to justify even that.

[Ulicus]

qalan wrote...

You're right in that she's incapable of deflecting Loghain after Ostagar, which is why I said it was Loghain's tragedy that there was no one at Ostagar with the strength of character to deflect him.  To me, Ostagar is the point of no return for Loghain, the moment where he goes from being a hero to becoming a tragic figure whose (ultimately self-defeating) course is set. 

Hmm. Fair point.

Modifié par Ulicus, 04 avril 2010 - 03:34 .

[nilamu]

Mystiana wrote...

I can completely understand why he did what he did, tho I may not agree with it.

The funny thing is I feel kinda the opposite that you do. After reading The Stolen Throne I realize he's not such a "villain" but is a man who does what he feels he has to do for the greater good, no matter how dirty his hands may get. He's willing to do the hard things that no body else is willing to, and for that I can respect him as a char.

I agree completely with you on this point. This actually almost drove me to keep Loghain alive. Of course I settled for making a warden that looked and acted like Loghain so that I could still work happily with Allistair.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

nilamu wrote...

Mystiana wrote...

I can completely understand why he did what he did, tho I may not agree with it.

The funny thing is I feel kinda the opposite that you do. After reading The Stolen Throne I realize he's not such a "villain" but is a man who does what he feels he has to do for the greater good, no matter how dirty his hands may get. He's willing to do the hard things that no body else is willing to, and for that I can respect him as a char.

I agree completely with you on this point. This actually almost drove me to keep Loghain alive. Of course I settled for making a warden that looked and acted like Loghain so that I could still work happily with Allistair.

But doesn't it disturb you how easily he can rationalize his actions? All he cares about is the "Greater Good" and yet "good" is solely perspective. He doesn't consider the consequences of his actions, only the desired goal, and when he does consider them he weighs them against the goal. It's almost egotistical, to assume that he can or should judge what is "good" and what is "evil".

[SarEnyaDor]

It is extremely egotistical, and arrogant, but isn't pride the tragic flaw for most heroes?



He was a hero, and he fell.



But don't mourn for Katriel. She deserved what she got ten times over.