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[Dansayshi]

What "Villainy" things did he actually do anyway? Katriel was not an evil act, it was the right 1, I mean CMON, she pretty much murdered Arl Byron, Arl Rendorn and most of their troops, she deserved what she got.

Modifié par Dansayshi, 05 avril 2010 - 02:41 .

[sierra-357]

Loghain's role seems to parallel with that of the PC you make in DA:O.

-Loghain has to fight to restore the crown and save Ferelden / You have to restore the Grey Wardens & allies to save Ferelden /

- Loghain does whatever is necessary to achieve the greatest good / You share the same moral dilemma

-Loghain hardens Maric and drives him to be king / You have to resolve a royal issue as well.

-In the end both are rewarded for their service to the crown.

I think Loghain's role is not just antagonistic. He is interesting because he can either be your foil (if you play an idealistic Warden) or he will be your mirror image (playing a pragmatic Warden).

Modifié par sierra-357, 05 avril 2010 - 02:52 .

[RazorrX]

Spoilers in my reply.... not great ones but still...



Loghain is an interesting character, but he is not really a 'hero'.



EVERYTHING Loghain has ever done has been based on wanting revenge on Orlais. Everything. There was nor has there EVER been any 'for the greater good' in him. Everything he has ever done for Ferelden has been based on his hatred for Orlais. He helped Maric in order to drive Orlais out of Ferelden. He tried to twist Maric into the kind of King he (Loghain) thought Ferelden needed. He had the 'traitors' killed because it fit with his concept of justice.



Now we get to DA:O and he allies himself with one of the 'traitor' nobles who had served with Orlais. Why? Because it works for him that Howe is willing to do whatever Loghain wants to keep Orlais out, all he (Loghain) has to do is allow Howe to kill other nobles, steal thier lands, etc. Loghain does not care, he is paranoid about Orlais. Kill of loyal Nobles? Sure no problem, we have to make sure Orlais will not come back. Sell your own citizens into slavery? SURE we need money to make sure that our army can keep Orlais out. Regicide? Had to because he was friendly with Orlais, and had even invited them to come help fight the darkspawn. Poison the brother of the woman you SUPPOSEDLY loved? Had to be done, because he married an Orlesian, can't be trusted. He had Calain killed because Calain was befriending Orlais. (Even hinted at in Return to OStagar that Anora may have been on her way out and an Orlesian on her way to replace the barren shrew). etc.



The crux of DA:O though is that Loghain can never admit there is a blight. EVER. Because *IF* he does, then it makes the Witch of the Wilds correct in her prediction to Maric. And if that prediction is true then the one about him is true as well (it was).



"He will betray you, each time worse than the last."

Then she told Maric that there was a blight coming soon, but that He (Maric) would not live to see it.



Thus Loghain can not admit the Blight is real, and so he betrays Maric by sacrificing his son to the darkspawn so that He (Loghain) can reign in the Nobles and make sure Orlais can not threaten Ferelden. The pesky Darkspawn can be dealt with after.



Maric allowed the Grey Wardens back into Ferelden against Loghains protests. They were from Orlais. Loghain betrays Maric by outlawing them.



Loghain betrayed Maric over and over in fact. Rowan, Katriel, Calain, Grey Wardens, Ferelden as a whole (civil war), etc.



I do not see how Loghain parallels the PC in any way. The PC is not delusional, paranoid, etc. unless you decided that is how you played your character, but the game is not written that way.



Plus how heroic is he in that right when you are about to kill his sorry ass .. THEN he admits he is wrong. "I yield! you were right! it is a blight! I am so sorry!"



He could have gone out a man, with sword in hand in honorable combat, but no, he died on his knees like the stinking dog he was.

[FunkyTofu]

I just finished the book (The Stolen Throne) and I'm glad to see that there is a discussion on the storyline that disturbed me the most.  I must say that I agree with everything TonyTheBossDanza123 has said.  From what I heard before I began the book, I thought for sure I would grow to like Loghain at least in part.  However, by the end of the book I learned to despise him even more.

I think what he did with the whole Katriel situation was abhorrent.  He only told Maric what he wanted Maric to know about Katriel.  He left Maric not knowing the whole story.  Even Rowan felt that Maric should know everything.  Loghain knew that Katriel had changed her ways and that she really loved Maric but did not divulge this important information to Maric.  If I were Maric, I would never have forgiven Loghain for his deception.

I was also extremely disappointed in Maric and his resulting action of killing Katriel.  I really liked his character up until that point.  How could he kill this woman that he loved?  I know being betrayed hurts and that you may say or do foolish things in the heat of the moment... but murder?  I completely lost respect for him.  It sounds like something Meghren would do.  Maybe if Loghain had told him the entire truth he may not have reacted so harshly.  And I don't accept the excuse that Katriel's death had to happen for Maric to be king material.  Surely the revealing of her deception had hardened Maric enough to not be as trusting.

And thank you TonyTheBossDanza123 for bringing up the points on forgiveness and redemption.  Haven't we all done things we regret?  Don't we all want forgiveness for the things we've done wrong?  Yes, Katriel made some terrible mistakes but hadn't she learned from them and redeemed herself?  Did she truly deserve being killed by the one she truly loved?  Even Rowan, whose father was slain due to Katriel's actions, made comments about Katriel saving their lives and seemed distrought that Katriel was dead.  Perhaps she had forgiven Katriel in a way herself?

Overall, I thought it was a great book with interesting characters.  But Chapter 17 changed a lot of things for me.  I mourned the loss of one of my favorite characters, I lost respect for one of my other favorite characters, and I learned to despise one of my least favorite characters even more.

Rest in peace, Katriel.

[Astranagant]

I liked the part where Loghain abandoned Maric's only legitimate son to be killed by the darkspawn and then tried to take the throne for himself. If that's not respecting a dear friend's legacy, I don't know what is.

[maxernst]

sierra-357 wrote...

Loghain's role seems to parallel with that of the PC you make in DA:O.

-Loghain has to fight to restore the crown and save Ferelden / You have to restore the Grey Wardens & allies to save Ferelden /

- Loghain does whatever is necessary to achieve the greatest good / You share the same moral dilemma

-Loghain hardens Maric and drives him to be king / You have to resolve a royal issue as well.

-In the end both are rewarded for their service to the crown.

I think Loghain's role is not just antagonistic. He is interesting because he can either be your foil (if you play an idealistic Warden) or he will be your mirror image (playing a pragmatic Warden).

The difference, however, is that there really is no one else (well, technically Alistair but he does it with you) who can save Ferelden.  I was struck by the irony on my second playthrough of the line where Loghain tells Anora in a cut scene "this is no true blight, only Callan's vanity made it so."  In fact, it's Loghain's vanity that causes him to deny the blight.  He can't accept that his leadership of Ferelden is not enough to save it, that outside help is needed.

[Viz79]

Loghain is a hero - he always did what he felt was best for the land. In Stolen Throne, he made Maric into the King he needed to be, in Calling once more he proves to be uncannily right in terms of intuition. In the game, he realises 'rightly' that if he doesnt lead against the Darkspawn, they will be crushed under Cailen's immature leadership. Along with his experience in the Calling, I dont understand how he can be blamed for his actions in DA.



You can say he doesnt have a 'right' to do what he did but there is no question of his strategic prowess and leadership qualities - if he led against the darkspawn, Ferelden 'would' triumph. Thats all this is about. Its just your misfortune that you happen to be a Grey Warden (which doesnt have allegiance to any nation) and need to be removed from the equation (due to your witnessing the events earlier) for the greater good.



At the end of the day, if they all unite beneath Loghain, you win against the Darkspawn. If Cailan had led, its fair to say things would have been far different.



Did you see Loghain's face when he sent Zevran to assassinate your character? He was clearly not pleased about how messy it was becoming. He was not proud of his actions and it seemed like he had to perform far too many of these acts to prevail. But once more, it was for the 'greater good'.

[yummysoap]

Loghain omitted a few facts that would have had Maric crying self righteous tears of wuss.



"But she's reaaaaallly sorry about killing our entire army, Loghain! She feels really bad about it and all!"



He did what it took to harden the little dude up a bit, and without it Maric ultimately wouldn't have had the balls to do anything.



The Calling touches a tiny bit on his complete deterioration, saying that he only spends his time with Maric because he's miserable at home with his wife and child, and that he was screwed up by Rowan's death. I think by DA:O he's so caught so up in his own misery, complete insistence to ignore the blight (incited by Maric's insistence that Flemeth's prediction was true), his hatred of Orlais to the point where he would refuse reinforcements, and his complete lack of loyalty to everyone's favourite idiot Cailan that he just let his stubborness take over and ultimately dooms Ferelden to civil war.



I think it's pretty fantastic to watch his decline.

[Squeelookle]

With each facet of Loghain's personality I read about, it reminds more and more of MacBeth.

A hero to the people who gets a taste of power (being declared Regent), growing more and more insecure to the point of murdering anyone who could be a threat (outlawing the Wardens, Maric's death, attempt on Arl Eamon's life), a descent into madness (though in Loghain's case it's more of a maddening rage) and holing himself up in a citadel/fortess waiting for his karma to catch up with him.
Loghain strikes me as a classic archetype of the "Tragic Hero" figure. Bravo, I say, for he is one well sculpted character, and I mean that!  Simon Templeman did a wonderful job of portraying the character and the voice suyits him to a T.
Also, to anyone who has commented on his "For the Greater Good" characteristic, there is a term for that, though it stems from D&D: "Chaotic Good".

Modifié par Squeelookle, 05 juin 2010 - 09:40 .

[Persephone]

I can only quote Loghain himself here "Being a king and being a man isn't always the same thing." The very same people who jeer at seeing Loghain butchered in front of his daughter feel that Katriel must be forgiven ASAP because she wuved Maric? Katriel was a traitor in the pay of Orlais who fell in love with her prey. A pity, yes. And she also caused the death of thousands at West Hill. Now it could be said that Loghain did the same at Ostagar, but he deserves no such quick forgiveness because he did not do it for luff and other sentimental hogwash but for pragmatic reasons, saving many lives in the process? And before the Loghain bashing starts, Cailan himself agreed, despite all his bravado, that there'd be no victory at Ostagar. Play RTO to find out. Why did the boy still insist to fight in the frontlines, then? Your guess is as good as mine.

Another reason against Katriel, two of them actually: Ferelden isn't ready for an elven queen in DAO, so yes, Maric marrying Katriel would have endangered Ferelden. Then there's the fact that she lured a man away from his betrothed. I find her to be a manipulative, lying tart, no offense. Did she love Maric? Maybe. Do I think she deserved to be butchered my her beloved? No. Would a traitor's death, her imminent punishment, have been more merciful? No.

Politics aren't always pretty. Which is why great men and women (Caesar, Elizabeth I.) are equally adored and loathed. Does that diminish their greatness? Hell, NO!

And before I hide from the Alistair lovers, a shameless bit of self promotion, my Loghain fic: The Edge Of The Grey Enigma:

www.fanfiction.net/s/6087280/1/

[Persephone]

Squeelookle wrote...

With each facet of Loghain's personality I read about, it reminds more and more of MacBeth.

A hero to the people who gets a taste of power (being declared Regent), growing more and more insecure to the point of murdering anyone who could be a threat (outlawing the Wardens, Maric's death, attempt on Arl Eamon's life), a descent into madness (though in Loghain's case it's more of a maddening rage) and holing himself up in a citadel/fortess waiting for his karma to catch up with him.
Loghain strikes me as a classic archetype of the "Tragic Hero" figure. Bravo, I say, for he is one well sculpted character, and I mean that!  Simon Templeman did a wonderful job of portraying the character and the voice suyits him to a T.
Also, to anyone who has commented on his "For the Greater Good" characteristic, there is a term for that, though it stems from D&D: "Chaotic Good".

Loghain had nothing to do with Maric's death.

[SweetPetunia86]

Persephone wrote...

I can only quote Loghain himself here "Being a king and being a man isn't always the same thing." The very same people who jeer at seeing Loghain butchered in front of his daughter feel that Katriel must be forgiven ASAP because she wuved Maric? Katriel was a traitor in the pay of Orlais who fell in love with her prey. A pity, yes. And she also caused the death of thousands at West Hill. Now it could be said that Loghain did the same at Ostagar, but he deserves no such quick forgiveness because he did not do it for luff and other sentimental hogwash but for pragmatic reasons, saving many lives in the process? And before the Loghain bashing starts, Cailan himself agreed, despite all his bravado, that there'd be no victory at Ostagar. Play RTO to find out. Why did the boy still insist to fight in the frontlines, then? Your guess is as good as mine.

Another reason against Katriel, two of them actually: Ferelden isn't ready for an elven queen in DAO, so yes, Maric marrying Katriel would have endangered Ferelden. Then there's the fact that she lured a man away from his betrothed. I find her to be a manipulative, lying tart, no offense. Did she love Maric? Maybe. Do I think she deserved to be butchered my her beloved? No. Would a traitor's death, her imminent punishment, have been more merciful? No.

Politics aren't always pretty. Which is why great men and women (Caesar, Elizabeth I.) are equally adored and loathed. Does that diminish their greatness? Hell, NO!

And before I hide from the Alistair lovers, a shameless bit of self promotion, my Loghain fic: The Edge Of The Grey Enigma:

www.fanfiction.net/s/6087280/1/

I thought the same thing. I know that this forum is a bit old, but, Katriel did not do much for me. She did lure Maric away from Rowan and she was a real **** about it if you ask me.  Not only that, she was really nasty to Rowan when she tried to befriend her; which is funny since Rowan was the only one rooting for her after she had found out Katriel was a bard. While I believe in redemption, I think that her death was a result of her actions. If she was truly sorry, why not just leave after the Deep Roads and leave Maric the solution to killing the mage. Why stick around? She was wrong. I agree with Persephone. If Loghain's death is justified, then so too was Katriel's. I personally like Rowan's character. I thought she was a very loving understanding and strong woman. She seemed to be an excellent friend as well' only wishing that Maric was happy after she found out Maric was in love with Katriel. It was easy to see why Loghain fell for her. I don't see how Maric could have missed her.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

RazorrX wrote...

Spoilers in my reply.... not great ones but still...

Loghain is an interesting character, but he is not really a 'hero'.

EVERYTHING Loghain has ever done has been based on wanting revenge on Orlais. Everything. There was nor has there EVER been any 'for the greater good' in him. Everything he has ever done for Ferelden has been based on his hatred for Orlais. He helped Maric in order to drive Orlais out of Ferelden. He tried to twist Maric into the kind of King he (Loghain) thought Ferelden needed. He had the 'traitors' killed because it fit with his concept of justice.

Now we get to DA:O and he allies himself with one of the 'traitor' nobles who had served with Orlais. Why? Because it works for him that Howe is willing to do whatever Loghain wants to keep Orlais out, all he (Loghain) has to do is allow Howe to kill other nobles, steal thier lands, etc. Loghain does not care, he is paranoid about Orlais. Kill of loyal Nobles? Sure no problem, we have to make sure Orlais will not come back. Sell your own citizens into slavery? SURE we need money to make sure that our army can keep Orlais out. Regicide? Had to because he was friendly with Orlais, and had even invited them to come help fight the darkspawn. Poison the brother of the woman you SUPPOSEDLY loved? Had to be done, because he married an Orlesian, can't be trusted. He had Calain killed because Calain was befriending Orlais. (Even hinted at in Return to OStagar that Anora may have been on her way out and an Orlesian on her way to replace the barren shrew). etc.

The crux of DA:O though is that Loghain can never admit there is a blight. EVER. Because *IF* he does, then it makes the Witch of the Wilds correct in her prediction to Maric. And if that prediction is true then the one about him is true as well (it was).

"He will betray you, each time worse than the last."
Then she told Maric that there was a blight coming soon, but that He (Maric) would not live to see it.

Thus Loghain can not admit the Blight is real, and so he betrays Maric by sacrificing his son to the darkspawn so that He (Loghain) can reign in the Nobles and make sure Orlais can not threaten Ferelden. The pesky Darkspawn can be dealt with after.

Maric allowed the Grey Wardens back into Ferelden against Loghains protests. They were from Orlais. Loghain betrays Maric by outlawing them.

Loghain betrayed Maric over and over in fact. Rowan, Katriel, Calain, Grey Wardens, Ferelden as a whole (civil war), etc.

I do not see how Loghain parallels the PC in any way. The PC is not delusional, paranoid, etc. unless you decided that is how you played your character, but the game is not written that way.

Plus how heroic is he in that right when you are about to kill his sorry ass .. THEN he admits he is wrong. "I yield! you were right! it is a blight! I am so sorry!"

He could have gone out a man, with sword in hand in honorable combat, but no, he died on his knees like the stinking dog he was.

I love this response.  I feel the same way.  I hate Loghain with a passion. 

Another point if I may...how could Loghain allow Cailan's death without any chance of survival or support,  knowing that he was Rowan's son?  That never made any sense to me.  Loghain claimed that he loved Rowan but I'm beginning to have my doubts about this.  My view is that Loghain really wanted what Maric was born to be and really wanted what Maric had all along for revenge over both of his parent's deaths.   It wasn't just about Orlai with Loghain.

Why didn't Maric choose someone else besides Loghain's daughter to marry Cailan?  The Cousland daughter would have been an excellent choice.  Why just Anora?   I find it strange that Maric even after Flemeth's warnings promoted Loghain to a Teyrn. I could see him becoming an Arl, not a Teyrn.   If I had been in Maric shoes I wouldn't have married my son to Anora and given Loghain even more power over my throne.  I don't think Loghain knew about Alistair unless Cailan let it slip.  I also think Alistair lied to Wynne about never talking with Cailan.  Just my gut feeling.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 27 octobre 2010 - 07:04 .

[Leonia]

Y'know, I think Gareth Mac Thir would have been greatly disappointed in his son after what happened at Ostagar, had he been alive to see it.

[kyles3]

the same gareth who made maric's safety a higher priority than the lives of those in his camp? cailan and the wardens already seemed lost, and loghain is too important to ferelden to throw his life away. what loghain did with his life after that is, well, much harder to defend.

the point in the story where i think gareth would have been heartbroken was when his son permitted already poor and oppressed fereldans to be sold into slavery. to me, that is the point at which i can no longer empathize with loghain (who is by far my favorite character in the series).

while i can appreciate loghain's regret over what he saw himself as having to do for his country, by permitting his countrymen to be herded like cattle by tevinter slavers he shows himself to have become a monster, one on par with the orlesians who raped his own mother in front of him.

if that ain't tragic, i don't know what is.

Modifié par kyles3, 26 octobre 2010 - 04:49 .

[SweetPetunia86]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

Spoilers in my reply.... not great ones but still...

Loghain is an interesting character, but he is not really a 'hero'.

EVERYTHING Loghain has ever done has been based on wanting revenge on Orlais. Everything. There was nor has there EVER been any 'for the greater good' in him. Everything he has ever done for Ferelden has been based on his hatred for Orlais. He helped Maric in order to drive Orlais out of Ferelden. He tried to twist Maric into the kind of King he (Loghain) thought Ferelden needed. He had the 'traitors' killed because it fit with his concept of justice.

Now we get to DA:O and he allies himself with one of the 'traitor' nobles who had served with Orlais. Why? Because it works for him that Howe is willing to do whatever Loghain wants to keep Orlais out, all he (Loghain) has to do is allow Howe to kill other nobles, steal thier lands, etc. Loghain does not care, he is paranoid about Orlais. Kill of loyal Nobles? Sure no problem, we have to make sure Orlais will not come back. Sell your own citizens into slavery? SURE we need money to make sure that our army can keep Orlais out. Regicide? Had to because he was friendly with Orlais, and had even invited them to come help fight the darkspawn. Poison the brother of the woman you SUPPOSEDLY loved? Had to be done, because he married an Orlesian, can't be trusted. He had Calain killed because Calain was befriending Orlais. (Even hinted at in Return to OStagar that Anora may have been on her way out and an Orlesian on her way to replace the barren shrew). etc.

The crux of DA:O though is that Loghain can never admit there is a blight. EVER. Because *IF* he does, then it makes the Witch of the Wilds correct in her prediction to Maric. And if that prediction is true then the one about him is true as well (it was).

"He will betray you, each time worse than the last."
Then she told Maric that there was a blight coming soon, but that He (Maric) would not live to see it.

Thus Loghain can not admit the Blight is real, and so he betrays Maric by sacrificing his son to the darkspawn so that He (Loghain) can reign in the Nobles and make sure Orlais can not threaten Ferelden. The pesky Darkspawn can be dealt with after.

Maric allowed the Grey Wardens back into Ferelden against Loghains protests. They were from Orlais. Loghain betrays Maric by outlawing them.

Loghain betrayed Maric over and over in fact. Rowan, Katriel, Calain, Grey Wardens, Ferelden as a whole (civil war), etc.

I do not see how Loghain parallels the PC in any way. The PC is not delusional, paranoid, etc. unless you decided that is how you played your character, but the game is not written that way.

Plus how heroic is he in that right when you are about to kill his sorry ass .. THEN he admits he is wrong. "I yield! you were right! it is a blight! I am so sorry!"

He could have gone out a man, with sword in hand in honorable combat, but no, he died on his knees like the stinking dog he was.

I love this response.  I feel the same way.  I hate Loghain with a passion. 

Another point if I may...how could Loghain allow Cailan's death without any chance of survival or support.  Knowing that he was Rowan's son?  That never made any sense to me.  Loghain claimed that he loved Rowan but I'm beginning to have my doubts about this.  My view is that Loghain really wanted what Maric was born to be and really wanted what Maric had all along for revenge over both of his parent's deaths.   It wasn't just about Orlai with Loghain.

Why didn't Maric choose someone else besides Loghain's daughter to marry Cailan.  The Cousland daughter would have been an excellent choice.  Why just Anora?   I find it strange that Maric even after Flemeth's warnings promoted Loghain to a Teyrn. I could see him becoming an Arl, not a Teyrn.   If I had been in Maric shoes I wouldn't have married my son to Anora and given Loghain even more power over my throne.  Did Loghain know about Alistair?

I concur! How could he do that to someone he claimed to love so much. While he is one of my favorite characters as well, his actions are inexcuseable. Also, the Cousland daughter is a fanatastic idea!! I didn't even think of that. I guess maybe that was done because Maric and Loghain were so close, he just thought it was right.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Persephone:  We don’t know that for sure on Maric’s death.  If you play Awakenings a player has the opportunity of strolling next to a shipwreck.  I found it strange that the ship was there and we really weren’t given any clues on when it shipwrecked. 

Leonia42:  I agree, I think Loghain’s father would have been ashamed of him or tried to stop him from his actions at Ostagar.  I had the impression that Loghain’s father was a royalists when he made Loghain go with Maric and try to save the princes’ life.

Sweetpetunia:  I’ve wondered since I’ve read the books if Loghain blackmailed Maric with his affair with Katriel or his own affair with Rowan to make sure his daughter got to marry Cailan.  For my rp adventure this is what happened.   
 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 27 octobre 2010 - 07:14 .