101 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

In DA I play my character, in Mass Effect I play Shepard. This is why I don't play Mass Effect.

[Malkavianqueen]

Nooo, I really prefer the unvoiced because it gives more PC dialogue options. Besides, what if they used a really scary voice? O__o That would completely break immesrsion for me!

[tmp7704]

weyrleader wrote...


Having played ME1-2, as well as DA:O and Awakening, I often find myself asking: Why doesn’t Dragon Age have a similar conversation wheel as ME1 & ME2?

The ME system forces certain limitations on the dialogue -- no more than 3 available actions (the other half of the wheel is used for inquires and the "lol i win" magic influence options, and the actions have to be generally spread between the "i'm good" "i'm bad" and "i'm like, whatever".

Transplanting this system into DA would mean need to introduce certain limitations to the story, simply to fit the conversation rules. A number of choices you make in DA isn't actually supposed to be between clearly arranged 'good' and 'bad', the moral value (if any) is left for the player to decide and weight in their own mind.

[weyrleader]

Vicious wrote...

IMO the difference is less than people think. DAO for example, utilized Persuades [good option] and Intimidates [violent option.] And guess what other game did that... Mass Effect most recently.


The conversation wheel should be a Bioware thing, not a ME thing. They basically invented and popularized it, no reason they should NOT use it, it is truly revolutionary in terms of cinematic appeal and yanking the player into the story.

That said, it's not perfected, and won't be for a while.


If DA2's hero is voiced,then by all means they should utilize an appropriate version of the wheel.
See, the problem with DA's system is the same problem with BG's system. 50% of the responses actually result in the same thing, and are just a different texted way of saying it.

Beautifully put!

[weyrleader]

tmp7704 wrote...

weyrleader wrote...


Having played ME1-2, as well as DA:O and Awakening, I often find myself asking: Why doesn’t Dragon Age have a similar conversation wheel as ME1 & ME2?

The ME system forces certain limitations on the dialogue -- no more than 3 available actions (the other half of the wheel is used for inquires and the "lol i win" magic influence options, and the actions have to be generally spread between the "i'm good" "i'm bad" and "i'm like, whatever".

Transplanting this system into DA would mean need to introduce certain limitations to the story, simply to fit the conversation rules. A number of choices you make in DA isn't actually supposed to be between clearly arranged 'good' and 'bad', the moral value (if any) is left for the player to decide and weight in their own mind.

So why have it "exactly" the same?  Why not, an I beg your forgiveness for the phrase, "re-invent the wheel"?   In this case, I think the phrase would actually be a "good" thing, keeping DA fans demands regarding richness in dialogue in mind.

[wwwwowwww]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Both are great games, but I don't think ME should bleed into DA. Voiced PC was fun in ME, but it would limit character creation too much in DA.

In what way does giving the pc a voice limit character creation? You get the option to pick a voice, I'd like to hear it other than "do you need a ladder"

[weyrleader]

wwwwowwww wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Both are great games, but I don't think ME should bleed into DA. Voiced PC was fun in ME, but it would limit character creation too much in DA.

In what way does giving the pc a voice limit character creation? You get the option to pick a voice, I'd like to hear it other than "do you need a ladder"

Yes.  Personally, I would trade 4 voice choices saying a limited number of 5 word phrases over and over again for a single chosen voice being able to speak throughout all dialogues within the entire game. Seems like this genre has been stuck from the times of Baldurs Gate, where the voice tech wasn't available at the time.  I think that it is time the game, and the players, evolve in this area.

[Herr Uhl]

weyrleader wrote...

So why have it "exactly" the same?  Why not, an I beg your forgiveness for the phrase, "re-invent the wheel"?   In this case, I think the phrase would actually be a "good" thing, keeping DA fans demands regarding richness in dialogue in mind.

So, you simply want the novelty of a wheel, or the options ordered from yay to nay?

I'm one of the dense people who don't see the greatness of the wheel.

[Addai]

wwwwowwww wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Both are great games, but I don't think ME should bleed into DA. Voiced PC was fun in ME, but it would limit character creation too much in DA.

In what way does giving the pc a voice limit character creation? You get the option to pick a voice, I'd like to hear it other than "do you need a ladder"

The little stock phrases are easy to ignore, but if you have everything voiced it forces inflection and personality on your PC.  I hate the female Shepard voice in ME, and don't like to play a male PC, so basically it ruins the game for me.  Besides which, I would rather they put the $$$ into richer story and NPC voice acting.

[Vicious]

Addai67 wrote...

In DA I play my character, in Mass Effect I play Shepard. This is why I don't play Mass Effect.

Really... so I guess you picked out the surname 'Cousland' and it's equivilants, you chose to be the middle child of the Dwarves, and chose to get married as an Elf? And if you say 'your character' in the sense that you guide his/her actions, then every RPG character including Shepard is 'your character' as it wouldn't be an RPG without it.

And if your only quibble is the voice acting [as it obviously is] then I will have to respectfully say that you shouldn't judge all actors because you don't like one.

The little stock phrases are easy to ignore, but if you have everything voiced it forces inflection and personality on your PC. 

I'll take some inflection and personality rather than none at all like we currently have.

My 2cents

[wwwwowwww]

Addai67 wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Both are great games, but I don't think ME should bleed into DA. Voiced PC was fun in ME, but it would limit character creation too much in DA.

In what way does giving the pc a voice limit character creation? You get the option to pick a voice, I'd like to hear it other than "do you need a ladder"

The little stock phrases are easy to ignore, but if you have everything voiced it forces inflection and personality on your PC.  I hate the female Shepard voice in ME, and don't like to play a male PC, so basically it ruins the game for me.  Besides which, I would rather they put the $$$ into richer story and NPC voice acting.

How does having a voice force personality? I don't see the difficulty with this

[weyrleader]

I feel that alot of the fear for change is unwarranted, and we may be reaching in our attempts to keep things the same. We HAVE to give our writers and developers credit where credit is due, as well as a little faith in their abilities to continue to provide the depth in the story and conversations that they continue to achieve should they choose to go down that path and embrace this tech for DA. I promise you, they won't "dumb-down" just because they allow our PC to speak.

[Bootsykk]

Actually, I kind of prefer the silent hero in Dragon Age, purely due to the fact that they have gajillions more conversation options.

One thing that I would GREATLY support however is facial expressions. Maybe even some mild customization involving how your character would smile, or what a sultry/flirty expression would be for them, and have the angry or upset expressions be default. The facial expressions were what really won my heart with characters like Morrigan and Zevran, same going for Mass Effect, in where I like my shepard more as a character because of her smile or her scowls.

[weyrleader]

Juneya wrote...

Actually, I kind of prefer the silent hero in Dragon Age, purely due to the fact that they have gajillions more conversation options.

One thing that I would GREATLY support however is facial expressions. Maybe even some mild customization involving how your character would smile, or what a sultry/flirty expression would be for them, and have the angry or upset expressions be default. The facial expressions were what really won my heart with characters like Morrigan and Zevran, same going for Mass Effect, in where I like my shepard more as a character because of her smile or her scowls.

What you point out would definitely be a step in the right direction.  When you make mention of the conversation options, I think I'll have to disagree.  I think that the wheel seems to give an illusion of fewer choices, but I seem to recall having many longer conversations than DA as the wheel branched in a variety of directions for ME1 and 2.  It would be interesting if Bioware could provide this info for comparison (yeah, keep dreamin' "knife-ear"!)  for an adequate measure.  I'll give you this, though: There was DEFINITELY more TEXT.  

[MEUTRIERE]

gemc123 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
No.

This.

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...
Sten: No

Cell1e wrote...
Please Noooooooooooooooooooo Mass Effect
was not in any way as immersive and as emotive a game as DA. I would
really, really, really, really, REALLY not like a conversation wheel!!

Mr_Steph wrote...
Oh dear GOD NO!

Count Viceroy wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
No.

Modifié par MEUTRIERE, 04 avril 2010 - 06:05 .

[Addai]

wwwwowwww wrote...

How does having a voice force personality? I don't see the difficulty with this

That butch persona they give the female Shepard- ugh.  I would rather personify my character in my head with minimal imposition from the game.

[Sesshomaru47]

weyrleader wrote...


Having played ME1-2, as well as DA:O and Awakening, I often find myself asking: Why doesn’t Dragon Age have a similar conversation wheel as ME1 & ME2? In, addition, why aren’t the PC’s given the ability to “speak” as in ME1 or ME2?

Because it's not Mass Deffect. Having the stupid conversation wheel would be well stupid, and would also require the Warden to be fully voiced. Yay I hear you say. That's a lot of work and someone needs to be paid for it. Then you're also stuck with a Mark Meer or something as equally bad that may not fit the image of your girly man elf. Because face it if they did voice the Warden they aren't going to give you a selection of voices. Reading is fine, it's good for you. Don't like it? Go play Mass Defect then.

[Wonderllama4]

Vicious wrote...

IMO the difference is less than people think. DAO for example, utilized Persuades [good option] and Intimidates [violent option.] And guess what other game did that... Mass Effect most recently.


The conversation wheel should be a Bioware thing, not a ME thing. They basically invented and popularized it, no reason they should NOT use it, it is truly revolutionary in terms of cinematic appeal and yanking the player into the story.

That said, it's not perfected, and won't be for a while.


If DA2's hero is voiced,then by all means they should utilize an appropriate version of the wheel.
See, the problem with DA's system is the same problem with BG's system. 50% of the responses actually result in the same thing, and are just a different texted way of saying it.

For example, You can insult Zathrian when he confronts you, but he will always return to the dialogue path 'You realize that she actually IS witherfang?" no matter what.


As for 'game would be shorter if the PC is voiced' You know what? I'd trade a shorter adventure for a more memorable one. Bioware can pull it off. Will they? Doubtful, since they seem set on the backwards direction that is a Silent protagonist for their fantasy games.

That said, I am greatly annoyed that outside of cutscenes my character has a completely blank face. Really sucked me out of the whole thing.

Also, if we are reprising The Warden for some reason, don't voice him. It treads on the fanbase.

I agree with you. my character seems like a puppet (a pretty puppet, but still). I wish he could pull off some of the badass things Shepard says and does in Mass Effect, or least show some emotion. that's only possible if the character speaks though.

I don't think it would take a ton of voice actors either. there isn't a HUGE difference between human, elf, and dwarf voices most of the time. two male voices and two female voices to choose from would be enough.

[wwwwowwww]

Addai67 wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

How does having a voice force personality? I don't see the difficulty with this

That butch persona they give the female Shepard- ugh.  I would rather personify my character in my head with minimal imposition from the game.

Well I've never played ME, so I don't know what you mean. All I'm talking about is the voice options you have at the beginning being  used throughout the game.

[weyrleader]

Addai67 wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

How does having a voice force personality? I don't see the difficulty with this

That butch persona they give the female Shepard- ugh.  I would rather personify my character in my head with minimal imposition from the game.

I absolutely agree with Addai on this one.  The female voice was RE..DICULOUS!  I can see one such fear as to why you might be hesitant for a change.  I would hope that Big BW would be a little more careful next time.  lol!

[Kryyptehk]

wwwwowwww wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

How does having a voice force personality? I don't see the difficulty with this

That butch persona they give the female Shepard- ugh.  I would rather personify my character in my head with minimal imposition from the game.

Well I've never played ME, so I don't know what you mean. All I'm talking about is the voice options you have at the beginning being  used throughout the game.

Yeah, but DA has a ridiculous amount of dialogue spoken just by your character. If you have the same choices of voices but a million bajillion lines (for lack of a real number, but I bet it's close) then that's a lot of needless voice acting.

I would be able to see one voice actor for male or female characters. Maybe even two for each, like choosing between kind of deep and kind of high. But not as many choices as we have now. But the problem is that if you keep the current system (which most people in THESE forums seem to prefer) than that's a lot of dialogue that people may never see. So they'll restrict the choices, not wanting to waste money on things someone might not ever see or only see once.

And someone said something about the character being a puppet. I personally think that they could have added a little bit more expression on their face (if you ever played Jade Empire, like they did there, I don't know why they scrapped that). But that's essentially the idea, that you are playing YOUR character, not Shepard. Some people like playing girly girls who are polite and do the right thing. Not really possible in Mass Effect. But totally doable in DA.

Mass Effect and Dragon Age are different games with different styles. Mass Effect is action with very little commitment to story, while Dragon Age is wordy and driven by story and characters. I don't think any game is better than the other, they're just different imho.

[Bootsykk]

weyrleader wrote...

Juneya wrote...

Actually, I kind of prefer the silent hero in Dragon Age, purely due to the fact that they have gajillions more conversation options.

One thing that I would GREATLY support however is facial expressions. Maybe even some mild customization involving how your character would smile, or what a sultry/flirty expression would be for them, and have the angry or upset expressions be default. The facial expressions were what really won my heart with characters like Morrigan and Zevran, same going for Mass Effect, in where I like my shepard more as a character because of her smile or her scowls.

What you point out would definitely be a step in the right direction.  When you make mention of the conversation options, I think I'll have to disagree.  I think that the wheel seems to give an illusion of fewer choices, but I seem to recall having many longer conversations than DA as the wheel branched in a variety of directions for ME1 and 2.  It would be interesting if Bioware could provide this info for comparison (yeah, keep dreamin' "knife-ear"!)  for an adequate measure.  I'll give you this, though: There was DEFINITELY more TEXT.  

WALL OF TEXT TIEM

I agree with there being an illusion of fewer choices. In Dragon Age, there were about the same number of storyline-critical decisions you had to make as in Mass Effect, only there were far more ways to say the decision you were making.
In Mass Effect, the conversation wheel is used primarily for the purpose of a system of good and evil, and how persuasive you are depends on how intimidating or righteous you appear. The reason why this would ultimately and completely shatter the personality of Dragon Age is because Dragon Age isn't based off of a battle of good and evil. You play as a neutral grey character, one who has to make conflicted decisions. 100% of the time you made the wrong choice. However, 100% of the time you also made the right choice. This is because the way you are perceived as a leader is by the people of Ferelden--you inspire the righteous to battle for their homes, or inspire the self-preservationists to fight for their freedom, or you inspire both and unite the nation to take down the blight. If the conversations were limited to a wheel and a voice actor, so much personal character development is lost.
For example, in a conversation with Alistair, he'll try and deflect your questions about his templar training by joking about the uniform. You can either say then, "So, you had a lot of these pillow fights?" or "This is where you deflect my answers with humor, right?" Both conversations will have the same end result, however, his approval of you will be deviated per answer. This is not because you are speaking form a standpoint that is good or evil, but because your PC is speaking from a standpoint of an "actual person" (sorry, bad joke) who is genuinely trying to get to know Alistair better, whether it be through playing along with his jokes or by confrontation.
With the mass effect conversation wheel, (I'll use Jacob as this example--it's easiest to compare the canon femromances) almost everything you say is categorized into good and evil, NOT what the character themself thinks of you. In one particular scene, you can chat Jacob up and confide in him or you can take another route, teasing him relentlessly and then catching him off-guard with a romantic gesture. In the first option, you WILL gain paragon points. However, if you are flirty and sassy, you WILL gain renegade points. Regardless of the outcome, there will be absolutely no impact on the relationship. The only impact is on the character themself, giving them conversation bonuses or cool looking facial scars.

This is actually THE SOLE REASON you cannot befriend a character in ME2. You can pursue a romance with them, but due to the limited dialogue options in voice acting, (I'm talking to the detail) a genuine connection to that character is incredibly difficult to achieve. As a writer myself, I know how hard it is to make a person feel pity for a character, how to make them love a character or hate a character, but most of all, have every person viewing that character in a different light. Through the Dragon age 'choose your own adventure' conversation list, a person can develop their own views of that character specifically. A voice actor would force the player to see the world through blinds that polarize all interpretations out other than the emotions implied by the voice actors tone or the characters choice of words.

Voice acting is incredible for Mass Effect, as Mass Effect tells a story about Shepard. It creates an interesting storyline and the feeling that you are watching a movie, or reading a great book. However, it destroys immersion and the fantasy that the player IS Shepard themself, able to voice their opinions the way they would voice it. Dragon Age is compelling in the way that the goal is to allow the player to lose themself in that universe, feel as if they had developed a bond with another character, and believe that their version of the story was truly unique, leaving them to wonder what might have happened if they had only said one thing differently or made one different minor decision.



EDIT: I apologize if this is all a litte non sequitur. I very badly word vomited all over this forum.

Modifié par Juneya, 04 avril 2010 - 06:53 .

[Kryyptehk]

Juneya wrote...

weyrleader wrote...

Juneya wrote...

Actually, I kind of prefer the silent hero in Dragon Age, purely due to the fact that they have gajillions more conversation options.

One thing that I would GREATLY support however is facial expressions. Maybe even some mild customization involving how your character would smile, or what a sultry/flirty expression would be for them, and have the angry or upset expressions be default. The facial expressions were what really won my heart with characters like Morrigan and Zevran, same going for Mass Effect, in where I like my shepard more as a character because of her smile or her scowls.

What you point out would definitely be a step in the right direction.  When you make mention of the conversation options, I think I'll have to disagree.  I think that the wheel seems to give an illusion of fewer choices, but I seem to recall having many longer conversations than DA as the wheel branched in a variety of directions for ME1 and 2.  It would be interesting if Bioware could provide this info for comparison (yeah, keep dreamin' "knife-ear"!)  for an adequate measure.  I'll give you this, though: There was DEFINITELY more TEXT.  

WALL OF TEXT TIEM

I agree with there being an illusion of fewer choices. In Dragon Age, there were about the same number of storyline-critical decisions you had to make as in Mass Effect, only there were far more ways to say the decision you were making.
In Mass Effect, the conversation wheel is used primarily for the purpose of a system of good and evil, and how persuasive you are depends on how intimidating or righteous you appear. The reason why this would ultimately and completely shatter the personality of Dragon Age is because Dragon Age isn't based off of a battle of good and evil. You play as a neutral grey character, one who has to make conflicted decisions. 100% of the time you made the wrong choice. However, 100% of the time you also made the right choice. This is because the way you are perceived as a leader is by the people of Ferelden--you inspire the righteous to battle for their homes, or inspire the self-preservationists to fight for their freedom, or you inspire both and unite the nation to take down the blight. If the conversations were limited to a wheel and a voice actor, so much personal character development is lost.
For example, in a conversation with Alistair, he'll try and deflect your questions about his templar training by joking about the uniform. You can either say then, "So, you had a lot of these pillow fights?" or "This is where you deflect my answers with humor, right?" Both conversations will have the same end result, however, his approval of you will be deviated per answer. This is not because you are speaking form a standpoint that is good or evil, but because your PC is speaking from a standpoint of an "actual person" (sorry, bad joke) who is genuinely trying to get to know Alistair better, whether it be through playing along with his jokes or by confrontation.
With the mass effect conversation wheel, (I'll use Jacob as this example--it's easiest to compare the canon femromances) almost everything you say is categorized into good and evil, NOT what the character themself thinks of you. In one particular scene, you can chat Jacob up and confide in him or you can take another route, teasing him relentlessly and then catching him off-guard with a romantic gesture. In the first option, you WILL gain paragon points. However, if you are flirty and sassy, you WILL gain renegade points. Regardless of the outcome, there will be absolutely no impact on the relationship. The only impact is on the character themself, giving them conversation bonuses or cool looking facial scars.

This is actually THE SOLE REASON you cannot befriend a character in ME2. You can pursue a romance with them, but due to the limited dialogue options in voice acting, (I'm talking to the detail) a genuine connection to that character is incredibly difficult to achieve. As a writer myself, I know how hard it is to make a person feel pity for a character, how to make them love a character or hate a character, but most of all, have every person viewing that character in a different light. Through the Dragon age 'choose your own adventure' conversation list, a person can develop their own views of that character specifically. A voice actor would force the player to see the world through blinds that polarize all interpretations out other than the emotions implied by the voice actors tone or the characters choice of words.

Voice acting is incredible for Mass Effect, as Mass Effect tells a story about Shepard. It creates an interesting storyline and the feeling that you are watching a movie, or reading a great book. However, it destroys immersion and the fantasy that the player IS Shepard themself, able to voice their opinions the way they would voice it. Dragon Age is compelling in the way that the goal is to allow the player to lose themself in that universe, feel as if they had developed a bond with another character, and believe that their version of the story was truly unique, leaving them to wonder what might have happened if they had only said one thing differently or made one different minor decision.



EDIT: I apologize if this is all a litte non sequitur. I very badly word vomited all over this forum.

Very well said, and I agree. Nice examples too, I have a hard time coming up with examples lol

[Sarah1281]

I don't think it would take a ton of voice actors either. there isn't a HUGE difference between human, elf, and dwarf voices most of the time. two male voices and two female voices to choose from would be enough.

I don't know. If nothing else there should be a difference between the HN/DN ones and the DC/CE ones. That six completely differen people from different species and different areas of the country all sound exactly the same...that sounds pretty immersion-breaking.

[Kryyptehk]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't think it would take a ton of voice actors either. there isn't a HUGE difference between human, elf, and dwarf voices most of the time. two male voices and two female voices to choose from would be enough.

I don't know. If nothing else there should be a difference between the HN/DN ones and the DC/CE ones. That six completely differen people from different species and different areas of the country all sound exactly the same...that sounds pretty immersion-breaking.

Especially since the dwarves have "American" accents while elves and humans have "British" accents.


Edit: I should clarify that the Warden SHOULD have the right accents for their correct race. I couldn't tell much difference in the short sentences that were in the game, in regards to accents.

Modifié par Kryyptehk, 04 avril 2010 - 06:59 .