101 réponses à ce sujet

[weyrleader]

Juneya wrote...

weyrleader wrote...

Juneya wrote...

Actually, I kind of prefer the silent hero in Dragon Age, purely due to the fact that they have gajillions more conversation options.

One thing that I would GREATLY support however is facial expressions. Maybe even some mild customization involving how your character would smile, or what a sultry/flirty expression would be for them, and have the angry or upset expressions be default. The facial expressions were what really won my heart with characters like Morrigan and Zevran, same going for Mass Effect, in where I like my shepard more as a character because of her smile or her scowls.

What you point out would definitely be a step in the right direction.  When you make mention of the conversation options, I think I'll have to disagree.  I think that the wheel seems to give an illusion of fewer choices, but I seem to recall having many longer conversations than DA as the wheel branched in a variety of directions for ME1 and 2.  It would be interesting if Bioware could provide this info for comparison (yeah, keep dreamin' "knife-ear"!)  for an adequate measure.  I'll give you this, though: There was DEFINITELY more TEXT.  

WALL OF TEXT TIEM

I agree with there being an illusion of fewer choices. In Dragon Age, there were about the same number of storyline-critical decisions you had to make as in Mass Effect, only there were far more ways to say the decision you were making.
In Mass Effect, the conversation wheel is used primarily for the purpose of a system of good and evil, and how persuasive you are depends on how intimidating or righteous you appear. The reason why this would ultimately and completely shatter the personality of Dragon Age is because Dragon Age isn't based off of a battle of good and evil. You play as a neutral grey character, one who has to make conflicted decisions. 100% of the time you made the wrong choice. However, 100% of the time you also made the right choice. This is because the way you are perceived as a leader is by the people of Ferelden--you inspire the righteous to battle for their homes, or inspire the self-preservationists to fight for their freedom, or you inspire both and unite the nation to take down the blight. If the conversations were limited to a wheel and a voice actor, so much personal character development is lost.
For example, in a conversation with Alistair, he'll try and deflect your questions about his templar training by joking about the uniform. You can either say then, "So, you had a lot of these pillow fights?" or "This is where you deflect my answers with humor, right?" Both conversations will have the same end result, however, his approval of you will be deviated per answer. This is not because you are speaking form a standpoint that is good or evil, but because your PC is speaking from a standpoint of an "actual person" (sorry, bad joke) who is genuinely trying to get to know Alistair better, whether it be through playing along with his jokes or by confrontation.
With the mass effect conversation wheel, (I'll use Jacob as this example--it's easiest to compare the canon femromances) almost everything you say is categorized into good and evil, NOT what the character themself thinks of you. In one particular scene, you can chat Jacob up and confide in him or you can take another route, teasing him relentlessly and then catching him off-guard with a romantic gesture. In the first option, you WILL gain paragon points. However, if you are flirty and sassy, you WILL gain renegade points. Regardless of the outcome, there will be absolutely no impact on the relationship. The only impact is on the character themself, giving them conversation bonuses or cool looking facial scars.

This is actually THE SOLE REASON you cannot befriend a character in ME2. You can pursue a romance with them, but due to the limited dialogue options in voice acting, (I'm talking to the detail) a genuine connection to that character is incredibly difficult to achieve. As a writer myself, I know how hard it is to make a person feel pity for a character, how to make them love a character or hate a character, but most of all, have every person viewing that character in a different light. Through the Dragon age 'choose your own adventure' conversation list, a person can develop their own views of that character specifically. A voice actor would force the player to see the world through blinds that polarize all interpretations out other than the emotions implied by the voice actors tone or the characters choice of words.

Voice acting is incredible for Mass Effect, as Mass Effect tells a story about Shepard. It creates an interesting storyline and the feeling that you are watching a movie, or reading a great book. However, it destroys immersion and the fantasy that the player IS Shepard themself, able to voice their opinions the way they would voice it. Dragon Age is compelling in the way that the goal is to allow the player to lose themself in that universe, feel as if they had developed a bond with another character, and believe that their version of the story was truly unique, leaving them to wonder what might have happened if they had only said one thing differently or made one different minor decision.



EDIT: I apologize if this is all a litte non sequitur. I very badly word vomited all over this forum.

lol! Despite the fact (joke), that was extremely well put.  You and Kryyptehk have given this "knife-ear" a moment to pause and ponder.........well done!

[zahra]

Computer says no.

[asaiasai]

As some posters have said NO WAY. There are really 3 types of games on the market. The just the driver like Left 4 Dead 2 where it really makes no difference what character you play. The driver lite which is what the ME series is. Then there is the full control driver like the DAO series. I really think that if the developers pulled the giant stick out of their asses concerning the character in ME, the whole you will play the character as we designed mantra, ME and ME2 would have been better games, at minimum more immersive. DAO is as good and immersive as it is because my Warden is exactly that, MY WARDEN, I play the character the way I want to, I build the character the way I want to, I make the decisions I want to, fully understanding that I will also bear the consequences of those decisions later. When I play ME I am an observer, when I play DAO I am the warden which bonds the player to the character, you become the warden, in ME you never become the “Shep”. I have played DAO 13 times now and each character may be similar (max persuasion) but no 2 are exactly the same, I have made different decisions in each play, and seen something new most of the time. The very fact that I can do this because the developers never inserted the stick in their asses in the first place by taking their hands off the character makes DAO the superior experience. It is primarily the reason why DAO is a superior game to ME or ME2, I would have rather seen the ME series lean more towards the DAO model than the what ever ME2 model their using now. ME2 took less time to play than the DAO Awakenings expansion which is sad because of the potential the ME story has. The developer decided to limit what the player can do because they decided to make ME a follow me as opposed to lead the way experience, is why the limited conversation wheel in ME will never be an improvement or fit. In ME2 there is really only one way to play the game, do the ship upgrades, do the crew loyalty missions, go through the Omega relay immediately, use the following people for the following tasks and there is your happy ending. In ME the only real choice the player gets in character development is paragon or renegade choices that pop up when and where the developer has decided they will. In DAO every conversation, every action, every choice can not even be quantified as simply a renegade or paragon option and to simplify DAO by imposing the ME limits would diminish the immersive quality of DAO. I own both ME and ME2 and by no means am I trashing them just really stating the obvious that DAO is a deeper, richer, more immersive experience because the developers let me have a free hand with my warden. So keep your ME hands off my DAO or I will be very angry.



Asai

[Sabriana]

I would not like my PC to sport a voice. It's my PC, and hearing her speak in a voice other than the one in my head would lower my enjoyment of the game very much. The inflections alone could be all wrong with the way I am imagining my PC to be speaking.

That's also the reason I'm completely fine with the zen faces. I have several different PCs, and they all can react in a different way to the same conversation. For example, my HNF would not look so crushed when seeing Cailan. She would be sad, true, but she knew that something like this would happen. She even told Duncan that "Cailan is a fool". She'd be sad, but in an "I knew this would happen" kind of way.

I also don't think my dalish would call Cailan "my king", and be utterly crushed at seeing him like that. Especially given the fact that my dalish told Cailan point-blank "You are not my king, human."

Or take the choice mages have in answering Cailan's "Might I know your name?" Mage #1 answered "It's possible, although I doubt it." in a humorous, going-for-the-giggles way. Mage # 2 answered in a very coldly sarcastic way. Those choices would be taken away from me. I do not wish that to happen.

[wwwwowwww]

asaiasai wrote...

As some posters have said NO WAY. There are really 3 types of games on the market. The just the driver like Left 4 Dead 2 where it really makes no difference what character you play. The driver lite which is what the ME series is. Then there is the full control driver like the DAO series. I really think that if the developers pulled the giant stick out of their asses concerning the character in ME, the whole you will play the character as we designed mantra, ME and ME2 would have been better games, at minimum more immersive. DAO is as good and immersive as it is because my Warden is exactly that, MY WARDEN, I play the character the way I want to, I build the character the way I want to, I make the decisions I want to, fully understanding that I will also bear the consequences of those decisions later. When I play ME I am an observer, when I play DAO I am the warden which bonds the player to the character, you become the warden, in ME you never become the “Shep”. I have played DAO 13 times now and each character may be similar (max persuasion) but no 2 are exactly the same, I have made different decisions in each play, and seen something new most of the time. The very fact that I can do this because the developers never inserted the stick in their asses in the first place by taking their hands off the character makes DAO the superior experience. It is primarily the reason why DAO is a superior game to ME or ME2, I would have rather seen the ME series lean more towards the DAO model than the what ever ME2 model their using now. ME2 took less time to play than the DAO Awakenings expansion which is sad because of the potential the ME story has. The developer decided to limit what the player can do because they decided to make ME a follow me as opposed to lead the way experience, is why the limited conversation wheel in ME will never be an improvement or fit. In ME2 there is really only one way to play the game, do the ship upgrades, do the crew loyalty missions, go through the Omega relay immediately, use the following people for the following tasks and there is your happy ending. In ME the only real choice the player gets in character development is paragon or renegade choices that pop up when and where the developer has decided they will. In DAO every conversation, every action, every choice can not even be quantified as simply a renegade or paragon option and to simplify DAO by imposing the ME limits would diminish the immersive quality of DAO. I own both ME and ME2 and by no means am I trashing them just really stating the obvious that DAO is a deeper, richer, more immersive experience because the developers let me have a free hand with my warden. So keep your ME hands off my DAO or I will be very angry.

Asai

Great, hope you feel better, but what does that have to do with being able to hear your character talk? I've never played ME, that doesn't mean I wouldn' tlike to hear my character talk

[tmp7704]

weyrleader wrote...

So why have it "exactly" the same?  Why not, an I beg your forgiveness for the phrase, "re-invent the wheel"?   In this case, I think the phrase would actually be a "good" thing, keeping DA fans demands regarding richness in dialogue in mind.

Well, the thing is the fixed alignment for the wheel dialogue options is actually part of the system -- this is a way developers invented to allow the player know in advance what sort of option their character is about to take, even when the actual option shown as text is vague (which in turn creates the effect where the player still sits and listens to their character deliver picked response instead of just skipping it with Esc because this response is something 'new' to them rather than something they already read)

If it's now not supposed to be exactly the same, then what actual features of the wheel system do you want to have, and which should be retained? That is, which particular parts of the wheel system made you desire to see it in DA as well, in the first place?

[errant_knight]

OMG, no.... The minimization of dialogue/interactions in Awakening really lessened my enjoyment of the game. This would be much, much worse. Having a voiced character and restricting conversation takes away from the game as an RPG, and forces you to play a pre-defined character.

Modifié par errant_knight, 04 avril 2010 - 05:28 .

[tmp7704]

wwwwowwww wrote...

How does having a voice force personality? I don't see the difficulty with this

Note even the voice options for the stock phrases you get in DA are described as character traits -- be it "suave", "brave", "wise" or whathaveyou. That's because the way people speak is both influenced and (because of it) associated with their personality.

[weyrleader]

tmp7704 wrote...

weyrleader wrote...

So why have it "exactly" the same?  Why not, an I beg your forgiveness for the phrase, "re-invent the wheel"?   In this case, I think the phrase would actually be a "good" thing, keeping DA fans demands regarding richness in dialogue in mind.

If it's now not supposed to be exactly the same, then what actual features of the wheel system do you want to have, and which should be retained? That is, which particular parts of the wheel system made you desire to see it in DA as well, in the first place?

That is a really good question!  My original want for the wheel was to basically summarize the commands, but not at the expense of the story.  I was hoping that DA's plethora of choices would still be there, only the PC would speak them rather than the player "read and click" the pc's response. I was hoping that the wheel would be re-invented to perhaps provide the number of choices, rather than take on the paragon/renegade/quick-ended format that is current with ME1 and 2.

The problem that I am beginning to see (yes, I am one of those few that take a good look at those opinions that differ with mine) is that I am wanting to have my cake and eat it too.  And I do love cake! If there is any threat to the story, then forget about it.  Also, much can be "lost in translation" if the choices are summarized too much.  I do recall a few occasions in the ME games that I misinterpreted certain choices made, and it unraveled in a way that I did not intend.

Additionally, and on a side-thought, I began wondering what impact "modders" might have with respect to the changes, if they were to occur.  I certainly wouldn't want this change to impact modders negatively.

[errant_knight]

Darn. Now I want cake....

[Bootsykk]

errant_knight wrote...

Darn. Now I want cake....

Soggy, slobbery cake perhaps?  I could fetch it for you if you throw me a leg of lamb.

Modifié par Juneya, 04 avril 2010 - 08:39 .

[errant_knight]

Juneya wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Darn. Now I want cake....

Soggy, slobbery cake perhaps?  I could fetch it for you if you throw me a leg of lamb.

Heh, slobbery cake is gifted back to the retriever.

[weyrleader]

errant_knight wrote...

Juneya wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Darn. Now I want cake....

Soggy, slobbery cake perhaps?  I could fetch it for you if you throw me a leg of lamb.

Heh, slobbery cake is gifted back to the retriever.

lol!  One thing about these threads: Despite our many differences of opinion, we can ALWAYS agree on cake....though we're still particular on how we might receive it.

[soignee]

*Sten voice*



No.

[Bootsykk]

soignee wrote...

*Sten voice*

No.

But... but you get +5 approval if you are given the cake.

[wwwwowwww]

I really think everyone is reading way to much into this. It's not that hard to put a voice to a character and have options to say it as (sympathetic, sarcastic, cruel, or whatever) some more work sure, but not that hard.



Seems to many are caught up with saying no, just because the idea came from another game.

[Herr Uhl]

wwwwowwww wrote...

I really think everyone is reading way to much into this. It's not that hard to put a voice to a character and have options to say it as (sympathetic, sarcastic, cruel, or whatever) some more work sure, but not that hard.

Seems to many are caught up with saying no, just because the idea came from another game.

No, many are caught up with saying no since this point has been raised plenty of times. it has been thought about, and the judging is already made.

It would still be the same VA unless you imagine them hiring 3-4 per gender, per race. In which case the game would have a budget to be about 10 hours long.

[wwwwowwww]

Herr Uhl wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

I really think everyone is reading way to much into this. It's not that hard to put a voice to a character and have options to say it as (sympathetic, sarcastic, cruel, or whatever) some more work sure, but not that hard.

Seems to many are caught up with saying no, just because the idea came from another game.

No, many are caught up with saying no since this point has been raised plenty of times. it has been thought about, and the judging is already made.

It would still be the same VA unless you imagine them hiring 3-4 per gender, per race. In which case the game would have a budget to be about 10 hours long.

Oh give me a break, you don't need to go out and pay top dollar for famous people to do every voice over. There are plent of no name people just looking for a few extra bucks that would give up a few hours of their time to do the lines.
You could pay $100 an hour for 4 hours of work, that's a total of $2400 for 3 voices of ea. gender abouts, if that is breaking the bank then the game isn't gonna be worth a crap anyways, which I highly doubt.

Yeah I said 4 hours, if that, they voice over entire animated cartoons in 6 hours, so 4 is being generous.

[Mystiana]

ick! no!!!

[Vicious]

I like how half the responses result in the same thing, but are merely worded differently, and people say 'ZOMG MORE CHOICES." when it is nothing but an illusion, and a crappy one at that.

That butch persona they give the female Shepard- ugh. I would rather personify my character in my head with minimal imposition from the game.

To be fair, and something a lot of people forget, is that Shepard is 30-something and career military. the voice acting is actually fitting if you consider that. [for the lady, at least, the male voice alternates between good and ugh]


And you know what? I'm sick and tired of taking a backseat because my character has no voiced. Like being unable to perform the joining when IM THE WARDEN COMMANDER because I lack a voice. Or watching Anora give her ear-shattering pre-battle speech because my character is a silent emoter, and I have to imagine everything he says like i'm playing a fracking pen and paper game.

Modifié par Vicious, 05 avril 2010 - 02:31 .

[Kryyptehk]

wwwwowwww wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

I really think everyone is reading way to much into this. It's not that hard to put a voice to a character and have options to say it as (sympathetic, sarcastic, cruel, or whatever) some more work sure, but not that hard.

Seems to many are caught up with saying no, just because the idea came from another game.

No, many are caught up with saying no since this point has been raised plenty of times. it has been thought about, and the judging is already made.

It would still be the same VA unless you imagine them hiring 3-4 per gender, per race. In which case the game would have a budget to be about 10 hours long.

Oh give me a break, you don't need to go out and pay top dollar for famous people to do every voice over. There are plent of no name people just looking for a few extra bucks that would give up a few hours of their time to do the lines.
You could pay $100 an hour for 4 hours of work, that's a total of $2400 for 3 voices of ea. gender abouts, if that is breaking the bank then the game isn't gonna be worth a crap anyways, which I highly doubt.

Yeah I said 4 hours, if that, they voice over entire animated cartoons in 6 hours, so 4 is being generous.

Ummm no, that's just...no. I would rather have a silent protagonist than having my person sound like some kid they dragged off the street. I've yet to see a game that could just pull people off the street, give them a hundred dollars and have it be up to par with the other voice actors. That's exactly like having people be in a Shakespeare play with no experiance. Sometimes it works, 90% of the time, it doesn't. And then you'd have people complaining that their character sounds stupid compared to the other characters and people would ask "Well, why didn't you adopt the KotOR system where they are quiet?" I'd rather not listen to anything to listening to some terrible voice actor. Why waste the money?

If they HAD to have voice actors for my character, I would prefer one or two for each gender, not people that have no skill in voice acting.

[Kryyptehk]

Vicious wrote...

I like how half the responses result in the same thing, but are merely worded differently, and people say 'ZOMG MORE CHOICES." when it is nothing but an illusion, and a crappy one at that.

Have you ever watched a magician? You know, when they shine pretty lights in your face to hide the fact that they're using strings to lift up the floating woman or dimming the backstage lights so the volunteer can step out of the back of the Box of Disappearing? It's like that. You may not have a lot of choice, but it's nice to have the allusion of choice.

ME and DA are different games. DA is more character driven than ME, or I should say, has more to do with developing your own character than developing Shepard. I don't know why this bothers you guys so much. So you have to read a little, so what? And to be honest, I think they want to keep it ME specific so that it can be their gimick. I know that sucks or whatever but if other games have the conversation wheel, and do it better, than why buy ME? Once they're done with ME, we will probably see other Bioware games with the wheel in it.

[wwwwowwww]

Kryyptehk wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

I really think everyone is reading way to much into this. It's not that hard to put a voice to a character and have options to say it as (sympathetic, sarcastic, cruel, or whatever) some more work sure, but not that hard.

Seems to many are caught up with saying no, just because the idea came from another game.

No, many are caught up with saying no since this point has been raised plenty of times. it has been thought about, and the judging is already made.

It would still be the same VA unless you imagine them hiring 3-4 per gender, per race. In which case the game would have a budget to be about 10 hours long.

Oh give me a break, you don't need to go out and pay top dollar for famous people to do every voice over. There are plent of no name people just looking for a few extra bucks that would give up a few hours of their time to do the lines.
You could pay $100 an hour for 4 hours of work, that's a total of $2400 for 3 voices of ea. gender abouts, if that is breaking the bank then the game isn't gonna be worth a crap anyways, which I highly doubt.

Yeah I said 4 hours, if that, they voice over entire animated cartoons in 6 hours, so 4 is being generous.

Ummm no, that's just...no. I would rather have a silent protagonist than having my person sound like some kid they dragged off the street. I've yet to see a game that could just pull people off the street, give them a hundred dollars and have it be up to par with the other voice actors. That's exactly like having people be in a Shakespeare play with no experiance. Sometimes it works, 90% of the time, it doesn't. And then you'd have people complaining that their character sounds stupid compared to the other characters and people would ask "Well, why didn't you adopt the KotOR system where they are quiet?" I'd rather not listen to anything to listening to some terrible voice actor. Why waste the money?

If they HAD to have voice actors for my character, I would prefer one or two for each gender, not people that have no skill in voice acting.

I never said no skill in voice acting, I said no-name, there are thousands of actors and actresses out there you have never heard of that would kill to work for $100 an hour. Geezus stop and think first.

[tmp7704]

wwwwowwww wrote...

It's not that hard to put a voice to a character and have options to say it as (sympathetic, sarcastic, cruel, or whatever) some more work sure, but not that hard.

And yet, there's actually no game the size of regular RPG which does it.

Nothing is hard for people who don't have to do the actual work involved or to pay the bills.

[Kryyptehk]

wwwwowwww wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

I really think everyone is reading way to much into this. It's not that hard to put a voice to a character and have options to say it as (sympathetic, sarcastic, cruel, or whatever) some more work sure, but not that hard.

Seems to many are caught up with saying no, just because the idea came from another game.

No, many are caught up with saying no since this point has been raised plenty of times. it has been thought about, and the judging is already made.

It would still be the same VA unless you imagine them hiring 3-4 per gender, per race. In which case the game would have a budget to be about 10 hours long.

Oh give me a break, you don't need to go out and pay top dollar for famous people to do every voice over. There are plent of no name people just looking for a few extra bucks that would give up a few hours of their time to do the lines.
You could pay $100 an hour for 4 hours of work, that's a total of $2400 for 3 voices of ea. gender abouts, if that is breaking the bank then the game isn't gonna be worth a crap anyways, which I highly doubt.

Yeah I said 4 hours, if that, they voice over entire animated cartoons in 6 hours, so 4 is being generous.

Ummm no, that's just...no. I would rather have a silent protagonist than having my person sound like some kid they dragged off the street. I've yet to see a game that could just pull people off the street, give them a hundred dollars and have it be up to par with the other voice actors. That's exactly like having people be in a Shakespeare play with no experiance. Sometimes it works, 90% of the time, it doesn't. And then you'd have people complaining that their character sounds stupid compared to the other characters and people would ask "Well, why didn't you adopt the KotOR system where they are quiet?" I'd rather not listen to anything to listening to some terrible voice actor. Why waste the money?

If they HAD to have voice actors for my character, I would prefer one or two for each gender, not people that have no skill in voice acting.

I never said no skill in voice acting, I said no-name, there are thousands of actors and actresses out there you have never heard of that would kill to work for $100 an hour. Geezus stop and think first.

4 hours of material for 100 dollars? Basically, two movies with just your voice for 100 dollars. Only if they were used to standing on the side of the street. Any voice actors who were serious about either being voice actors or becoming actors would do that.

It would be more likely that they would try to hire someone through an agency. And agencies get a cut of your money. An agency won't bother with roles that only pay 100 dollars unless it is a very short role.

And there is no need to be hostile, I'm just pointing out that 100 dollars isn't resonable.