253 réponses à ce sujet

[ATKT]

• Tali's trial evidence

You're right, it is selfish to withhold the evidence. You are preserving Tali's father's reputation for no other reason than Tali wants you to. His research may provide the edge the quarians need in a war with the geth.

The decision is made 100% based on how loyal you are to Tali, IMHO.

Edit: Gah, edit button wierdness.

Modifié par ATKT, 04 avril 2010 - 01:18 .

[Internet Kraken]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...



I understand that completley. But prior to the trial your only reason to hide the evidence is to not show just how bad Tali's father was. You can't predict how the Quarians will react to it because you aren't given enough information about Quarian politics prior to this. You don't know that it will have dire political consequences. So your only reason to hide it is to preserve your relationship with Tali. You essentially valuing her more than letting the Quarians make an informed decisions about the Geth war, which always struck me as selfish. Maybe it's not really selfish, but that's exactly why I want to get some more opinions on this.

You're right that we can't predict it. But based on what Tali tells us (who is much more experienced and knowledgeable in Quarian culture than Shepard) and on what we already know of the Quarians, it's unlikely that her father would have been forgiven for his actions, in addition to whatever political repercssions there might have been. But I still think here that we are missing the point about 'metagaming'. I could be misunderstanding your position, but how exactly is it metagaming if you choose to value Tali over the Quarians as a whole? It might not seem to be the most logical position, but humans aren't known for behaving logically all the time. Our emotional connections often impact our judgment.

Oh I see. What I meant was that I've had people tell me that my decision to show the evidence was incredibly stupid,and I've often responded to these claims that hiding the evidence would make me feel selfish. I've then gotten people asking how hiding the evidence is selfish, suggesting that this is a choice a lot of people make based on what happens afterwards. Though I'm probably just explaining this wrong. I'm terrible at expressing my thoughts usually, so I apologize in advance for that.

[Bigdoser]

Someone said this about tali's trial and i agree.

I'm pretty sure the research did not yield anything. At most it would lead to more testing on geth which is a stupid idea. Everyone on the Alarei paid with their lives, there is no point to giving the data. And if you want to metagame, giving the data splits up the fleet anyway, which is also bad.

If I hide the data i will encourage peace but I got to admit the data is
really a tough choice I think there is no right answer.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 04 avril 2010 - 01:23 .

[Internet Kraken]

Bigdoser wrote...

Someone said this about tali's trial and i agree.

I'm pretty sure the research did not yield anything. At most it would lead to more testing on geth which is a stupid idea. Everyone on the Alarei paid with their lives, there is no point to giving the data. And if you want to metagame, giving the data splits up the fleet anyway, which is also bad.

Why do people always say this? Handing over the evidence does not lead to more testing on the Geth. If you hand it over the majority of the Quarians are horrified with what Rael did. Xen says that she can't continue Geth research now due to public opposition. Revelaing the evidence stops Geth testing, or at least forces it to be far more secretive and controlled. Now there is an option to support Rael's experiments so that might make it so that the testing continues, but you don;t have to pick it.

Either way you know that the results of Rael's experiments are going to be found. The difference is that when you reveal it, you are showing it to the Quarian public rather than allowing it to be hidden.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 04 avril 2010 - 01:23 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Oh I see. What I meant was that I've had people tell me that my decision to show the evidence was incredibly stupid,and I've often responded to these claims that hiding the evidence would make me feel selfish. I've then gotten people asking how hiding the evidence is selfish, suggesting that this is a choice a lot of people make based on what happens afterwards. Though I'm probably just explaining this wrong. I'm terrible at expressing my thoughts usually, so I apologize in advance for that.

You're doing a better job of explaining it than you give yourself credit for and I actually agree with your point here. If you're playing your Shepard in that manner, it makes sense that he would choose to show the evidence. It definitely would be meta-gaming if you used what comes after as an excuse to hide the evidence.

I actually had a similar situation as well. When I first played ME2, a whole bunch of my friends watched me play most of the game. I accidentally screwed up the Miranda plot line (by not choosing her over Jack). So when I came to Tali's trial, my friends insisted that I hide the evidence because I "needed to have a love interest" and they wanted to see Shepard "get it on" instead of providing any character reason.

[Sunnie]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Letting Shiala go
Letting Rana Thanoptis go
Saving the Council

Other ones to consider regarding metagaming.

Saving the Collector
Base
Letting the Rachni Queen live

I let Shiala go because it was over the top obvious that she understood and was regretful of her part in helping Saren, even if it was by proxy (She was following Benezia, not Saren), and that she truly wanted to help the colony on Feros. To execute her for something she most likely had little control over would have made Shepard(me) just as bad as Saren.

I let Rana Thanoptis go because it was obvious that she was just a pawn and was not under the influence of indoctrination. She was just a lab worker helping to find a cure for the Genophage, she really had no idea what Saren was really up to, only a few did.

I saved the Council for 2 very different reasons.

1. We (humans) were reletive newcommers to the galactic community, and with the realization that we are all about to get squished by a hoard of blood thirsty machines, it would be far easier to unite the different species if their governmental leaders were still around and on our side. Showing the galaxy that we are not all about ourselves is the bigtest step we could take to prove we deserve their respect and assistance.

2. The Destiny Ascension had over 10,000 crew and support personnel on board. The simple math says that loosing a few ships with hundreds of crew is far better that loosing a single ship with over ten thousand. It matters not what race they were, the simple fact is that life is precious no matter what the wrapper is.

It took me .00000005 seconds to decide to destroy the Collector base. The Reapers have been using their technology to entrap races for millions of years, it is a fools folly to believe that trying to use what ever is on that base would not result in more traps that ultimately would be used against us. It was just icing on the cake to tell TIM to shove it, and watch his pet (Miranda) quit.

I let the Rachni Queen go. After hearing what she had to say it was clear that the Rachni of old were influenced somehow. It also dawned on me that they would be powerful allies in the future, having earned their respect for having some compassion and understanding.

Having now played through ME2, I find that I did indeed make the right decisions that will gain allies where there might have been few or none. Fighting the Reapers will ultimately take more than just Shepard, to end the cycle it will take the combined effort of all advanced species working together.  The only thing in your list that I could not see any results for was the Collector base, won't see what my decision will result in until the next installment.

[Bigdoser]

But you can still metagame with the decision of handing over the evidence, when you first find the evidence your using it to clear Tali's name not crippling the war effort. I thought handing over the evidence would help Xen.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 04 avril 2010 - 01:30 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Yeah, I understand what your saying.   I wasn't really considering that broad of an aspect of it I suppose.  Stats and renegade/paragon bars being a perfect example of this.  Although I do understand meta gaming involves that.  I  was referring to the big decisions and how they are justified without the prior knowledge of the consequences.  If that is possible to seperate.

Ah, I see what you're saying then. In the case of the Collector Base, I personally thought it was an issue of do we really want to continue relying on Reaper technology, besides the fact that we're placing it in the hands of a human supremacist maniac. If we want to defeat the Reapers, we must evolve technologically in ways they do not understand. Using technology which they have had a millenia to master will not work, in my opinion.

[Bigdoser]

But how will we use the collector base all we know about it is that it is a reaper making factory anything beyond that is speculation are you taking the chance of giving dangerous tech to a terrorist? Or elimate a future right then and there?, there are no right answers you can justify both sides how do we know if TIM may not use our allies to make reapers? I chose to destory it I think a united galaxy will have a better chance at beating the reapers, plus I don't trust TIM as Shepard said humanity needs a leader looking out for them TIM is just looking out for himself.

Modifié par Bigdoser, 04 avril 2010 - 01:50 .

[Sunnie]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I understand this except for the fact that we are running out of time to develop are own technology.  Discarding the possibility of getting our hands on the technology only removes the possibility no matter how slim, of using it to our advantage somehow against the Reapers.  With the imminent thread on the Horizon, I would say worry about the spremacist maniac after we have dealt with the Reapers.

I must disagree. The Reaper tech has been controlling everything in the galaxy for millions of years, keeping the base in tact would just be a continuation of that control. To boot, it would be even more dire should we have ended up with an indoctrinated TIM. He is almost as bad as Hitler now, just think of what would happen if he was being directly controlled by a Reaper.  No thanks, buh bye Collector Base...

Modifié par Sunnie22, 04 avril 2010 - 01:49 .

[Sunnie]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I understand this except for the fact that we are running out of time to develop are own technology.  Discarding the possibility of getting our hands on the technology only removes the possibility no matter how slim, of using it to our advantage somehow against the Reapers.  With the imminent thread on the Horizon, I would say worry about the spremacist maniac after we have dealt with the Reapers.

I must disagree. The Reaper tech has been controlling everything in the galaxy for millions of years, keeping the base in tact would just be a continuation of that control. To boot, it would be even more dire should we have ended up with an indoctrinated TIM. He is almost as bad as Hitler now, just think of what would happen if he was being directly controlled by a Reaper.  No thanks, buh bye Collector Base...

Yes, good point, but that is also assuming that the Collector Base has the same indoctrination effect as an actual Reaper does right?

There was no evidence one way or the other, but it was not a chance I was willing to take. What we do know is that the Reapers have been influencing everything for millions of years, I was not going to possibly let that continue.

edit: Actually, there were quite a few husks on the base, so one could surmise that indoctrination would also be part of the arsenal.

Modifié par Sunnie22, 04 avril 2010 - 02:04 .

[Xaijin]

Letting Shiala go

She was contrite and honest.

Letting Rana Thanoptis go

She was in WAAAAY over her head, and didn't intend for people to die, even those her morals are pretty... flat.

Saving the Council

Human(e) thing to do.

Other ones to consider regarding metagaming.

Saving the CollectorBase Edit: Destroy the Collector Base

Destroy: Nothing good shot term can come of it. Long term is likely different story; short term TIM has no business being anywhere near it, especially after he starts quoting Mein Kampf.

Letting the Rachni Queen live

Taking a chance on both pissing of Wrex and giving them a chance.

Hiding the evidence at Tali's trial

She asked me to. Her ass is growed.

Modifié par Xaijin, 04 avril 2010 - 02:14 .

[Bigdoser]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I understand this except for the fact that we are running out of time to develop are own technology.  Discarding the possibility of getting our hands on the technology only removes the possibility no matter how slim, of using it to our advantage somehow against the Reapers.  With the imminent thread on the Horizon, I would say worry about the spremacist maniac after we have dealt with the Reapers.

I must disagree. The Reaper tech has been controlling everything in the galaxy for millions of years, keeping the base in tact would just be a continuation of that control. To boot, it would be even more dire should we have ended up with an indoctrinated TIM. He is almost as bad as Hitler now, just think of what would happen if he was being directly controlled by a Reaper.  No thanks, buh bye Collector Base...

Yes, good point, but that is also assuming that the Collector Base has the same indoctrination effect as an actual Reaper does right?

There was no evidence one way or the other, but it was not a chance I was willing to take. What we do know is that the Reapers have been influencing everything for millions of years, I was not going to possibly let that continue.

I could understand that.  In the ME universe, times are getting pretty deperate though.  Assuming the decision even matters in ME3, I assume Bioware will reward the player in some way for detroying it.  With that said though, we are pretty desperate to stop them.

Let me ask you this hypothetical question.  If you could keep the Collector Base intact, would you be willing to hand it over to the Alliance or the Council if that was possible in the game?

I would not even hand it to the Alliance or council.

[Sunnie]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I understand this except for the fact that we are running out of time to develop are own technology.  Discarding the possibility of getting our hands on the technology only removes the possibility no matter how slim, of using it to our advantage somehow against the Reapers.  With the imminent thread on the Horizon, I would say worry about the spremacist maniac after we have dealt with the Reapers.

I must disagree. The Reaper tech has been controlling everything in the galaxy for millions of years, keeping the base in tact would just be a continuation of that control. To boot, it would be even more dire should we have ended up with an indoctrinated TIM. He is almost as bad as Hitler now, just think of what would happen if he was being directly controlled by a Reaper.  No thanks, buh bye Collector Base...

Yes, good point, but that is also assuming that the Collector Base has the same indoctrination effect as an actual Reaper does right?

There was no evidence one way or the other, but it was not a chance I was willing to take. What we do know is that the Reapers have been influencing everything for millions of years, I was not going to possibly let that continue.

I could understand that.  In the ME universe, times are getting pretty deperate though.  Assuming the decision even matters in ME3, I assume Bioware will reward the player in some way for detroying it.  With that said though, we are pretty desperate to stop them.

Let me ask you this hypothetical question.  If you could keep the Collector Base intact, would you be willing to hand it over to the Alliance or the Council if that was possible in the game?

I actually thought about that, and I would have destroyed the base for the same "main" reason. We need to break free of the Reaper influence, and that base was just full of it.

[Exyle19]

I would happily hand it over to Captain Anderson but not any kind of bureaucratic or legislative body with agendas spanning the galaxy. Ironically, I feel in this case the technology would be better held by an individual than by a government or organization.

[ATKT]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Let me ask you this hypothetical question.  If you could keep the Collector Base intact, would you be willing to hand it over to the Alliance or the Council if that was possible in the game?

My gut reaction is yes. But when I think about it, the Council doesn't even believe anything you said about Reapers, or about indoctrination, and so wouldn't take any precautions against it. The same for the Alliance.

Cerberus has encountered Reaper tech before and will most likely know how to handle it better. Also, just because it's Reaper tech doesn't mean its going to indoctrinate you; your Thanix cannons are derived from Reaper tech. Besides, if Reaper tech relies on some organic components, and that radiation blast killed any living thing, the tech is going to be inactive. Furthermore, there isn't an actual Reaper there to cause indoctrination. The only time we encountered indoctrination outside of a Reaper was that one side mission with all the husks. If one of those devices were found, it should be destroyed ASAP, and that can be done without sacrificing all the technology in the base.

[sammcl]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Letting Shiala go
Letting Rana Thanoptis go
Saving the Council

Other ones to consider regarding metagaming.

Saving the Collector
Base
Letting the Rachni Queen live

• Shiala - She willfully explained what happened and gave you the cipher, i just went with my gut on this one, she didn't seem like a danger to anyone.
• Rana - She knew they were studying effects of indoctrination, even if she wasn't involved directly. I didn't think that was enough to kill her, she'd have had to support Saren's motives for me to kill her.
• The Council - Focusing on Sovereign felt like the right choice here, no matter how many people are onboard that ship, Sovereign is a threat to millions more. After finding out that every choice ends up with a dead reaper i saved them on my paragon for the political goodwill, my renegade will always focus on Sovereign.
• Collector Base - I could never bring myself to save that base, I just don't trust TIM. I also did not forget that even a dead reaper could still indoctrinate people, who's to say something similar couldn't happen with this base?
• Rachni Queen - After hearing about indoctrination from Benezia and Shiala, I was inclined to trust the queen when she said something soured the songs of her mothers, she seemed to understand why the rachni were eradicated and didn't hold that against me. that said....My renegade kills her, just to be safe, this is one of those choices where at the time you really have no idea what will come of it, both actions were justifiable to me.
• Rael's data - I felt that the Quarians had already tried to use AI and failed miserably, showing them evidence that might get some of them back into that field felt irresponsible. This is a choice I'll be interested to see the outcome of, I had no idea that showing them evidence would split the fleet, I've never done it, I'd like to see if maybe splitting the fleet ends up being the better outcome, like without revealing the evidence they ignore my warning not to go to war and get obliterated.

[Nightwriter]

I thought the Rael evidence dilemma at Tali's trial was a superb story device by Bioware.

It was so well done to me because they were pitting my own strong natural instincts to present the data against my friendship with Tali. On the one hand I strongly believed I should hand that evidence over; my every instinct told me to.

On the other... Tali begged me. Sincerely. And I was swayed. She was my friend and she asked me to do it, for her, basically. How many of us haven't been swayed when our friends ask us to please, please do something, just this once, because it matters to them? Because it's important to them and they're appealing to us for help - even if it goes against our own natural instincts?

[sammcl]

ATKT wrote...

My gut reaction is yes. But when I think about it, the Council doesn't even believe anything you said about Reapers, or about indoctrination, and so wouldn't take any precautions against it. The same for the Alliance.

Cerberus has encountered Reaper tech before and will most likely know how to handle it better. Also, just because it's Reaper tech doesn't mean its going to indoctrinate you; your Thanix cannons are derived from Reaper tech. Besides, if Reaper tech relies on some organic components, and that radiation blast killed any living thing, the tech is going to be inactive. Furthermore, there isn't an actual Reaper there to cause indoctrination. The only time we encountered indoctrination outside of a Reaper was that one side mission with all the husks. If one of those devices were found, it should be destroyed ASAP, and that can be done without sacrificing all the technology in the base.

The Human Reaper counts as a reaper does it not? Yes, we dropped it to the bottom of the base and shot it's eyes up, but we have no way of telling if it was able to indoctrinate yet. The derelict reaper could still indoctrinate what if the human reaper can too? Safer to blow the place

[Nightwriter]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I thought the Rael evidence dilemma at Tali's trial was a superb story device by Bioware.

...and yet it doesn't seem to have occured to anybody but me that the mission is to have Tali focused for your foray into the Omega-4 Relay. Why do none of you grasp this simple fact?

Of course it is. All the missions are to get your characters focused. They're all about necessity.

Good writers weave some nice story and character development into all the little necessities of the plot, however, and make people forget that they were necessities in the first place.