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[Internet Kraken]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...



I thought the Rael evidence dilemma at Tali's trial was a superb story device by Bioware.

...and yet it doesn't seem to have occured to anybody but me that the mission is to have Tali focused for your foray into the Omega-4 Relay. Why do none of you grasp this simple fact?

I understand that. It's just that I don't think Tali is so vital to the mission that her loyalty is worth hiding this information that could potentially stop all of the Quarians from being dragged into a Geth war, allowing both fleets to be available when the Reapers show up. I'm saying that the Quarian and Geth fleets are more valuable than Talis loyalty. Feel free to rip apart my logic. Just be aware that I understand your position, I simply disagree with it.

[Collider]

[quote]JohnnyDollar wrote...

Meta Gaming http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Metagaming

It is often convenient at times for one to say that his/her decision was the right one to make from the benefit of metagaming and hindsite. 

Letting Shiala go
Letting Rana Thanoptis go[/quote]
Both of these are not especially important in metagame. If Shiala died you just get someone else representing the colony. As for Rana, I don't know.

Shiala expressed regret and acknowledged her mistakes. She was also indoctrinated if I remember correctly, nothing to blame the person completely for. And if you do execute her, she just sits there and takes it and it's wholly unsatisfying.

[quote]Saving the Council[/quote]
The death of the council will create a power vacuum in which undesirable people could seize power. It will cause chaos as the highest seats of government are completely vacant.

Other ones to consider regarding metagaming.

[quote]Saving the Collector Base[/quote]
Saving the collector base may yield information on how to stop the reapers.     

Edit:  Destroy the Collector Base[/quote]
Thousands if not millions of people died because of the base. There is also Reaper technology - and we've learned never to trust a Reaper. There is a sidemission in ME2 where people get indoctrinated just standing next to reaper technology.

[quote]Letting the Rachni Queen live[/quote]
The Rachni Queen herself does not appear to have done anything wrong, she was basically hatched from an egg and put into a prison and that's about it - the rachni without a queen became viscious and uncoordinated. T
[quote]
Hiding the evidence at Tali's trial[/quote]
Tali asked Shepard specifically not to show the evidence. That's the entire reason Shepard came to the Flotilla in the first place, to help Tali. Her father and his entire team were killed, they've already paid more than enough for what they did. Their family names do not need to suffer because of them.

Giving the evidence, if it yields anything new about the geth or technology, may encourage the Quarians to experiment more on the geth, which is a bad idea.

[quote]Are most of the decisions I have listed above hard to justify and
rationalize without the benefit of metagaming?

[/quote]
Not really.

[Internet Kraken]

Collider wrote...
Giving the evidence, if it yields anything new about the geth or technology, may encourage the Quarians to experiment more on the geth, which is a bad idea.

Why do people always say this? I don't get it. The only thing you give to the Admiralty board is the audio file made by Rael. I thought this was made pretty clear.

Shandepared wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Just be aware that I understand your position, I simply disagree with it.

That
won't save you. How can you possibly know enough about what is beyond
the Omega-4 Relay to judge whether Tali will be vital or not? Why go to
such lengs to save her on Haestrom? Why share that evidence in a public
trial? That kind of thing should be kept classified anyway.

Well
I don't know how dangerous the Reapers are, so maybe I think an enitre
fleet from two different species will be more important than Tali's loyalty. I'm not trying
to say your logic is wrong, it's just that I have reasons behind mine as well.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 04 avril 2010 - 02:53 .

[meatbag titan]

I think Tali's evidence at trial and the collector base were both really tough spots in ME2.



It was on the surface pretty easy to trust in Tali to begin with, but then realizing that there was the entire issue of whether the quarians should go to war or try to settle elsewhere at stake that would likely take place in ME3 made me think for a good long while... I don't even remember what I said in solution, although now knowing more about the geth thanks to legion I would have more hopes for brokering some sort of piece between geth (minus the heretics) and quarians. I was really afraid of quarians going to war and many dieing (Kal'Reagor was so awesome... probably not likely but him as a squad member in ME3 would be great).



I actually kept the collector base on my first playthrough... although the more I've sat with it the more suspicious of the Illusive Man (those darn eyes) I get, I'm not sure how I'll actually want to import that into ME3... Seeing the fleet of reapers out in space sure made me nervous, though; and for at least a little while I was glad to have a potential for reaper tech weapons.



Just out of curiosity, what happens if you didn't save the council in ME2... they seemed to have such a minor (and obnoxious as always) cameo for ME2 when I saved them. I feel like it's the right choice for earning humanity's place, but man that's a big bunch of ingrates if I've ever seen one

[Nightwriter]

Your Synthetic Superior wrote...

Rana? The impression I get was that "leting her go" was letting her die by the blast. How someone outruns or outdrives (or whatever) a blast that, from orbit, looked like it could take out Texas doesn't register on my scale of possibility.

I thought exactly the same thing, SS. I let everybody go there was to let go on Virmire - even those braindead salarians who'd been indoctrinated.

I was about to blow the place to hell and gone and I figured there was really no guarantee anything would make it out of the blast alive. The whole place was about to be a crater. The least I could do is let everything run for themselves, for what good it would do them.

I still don't understand how Rana made it out on foot - she had to have found some type of vehicle.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 04 avril 2010 - 03:00 .

[Collider]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Collider wrote...
Giving the evidence, if it yields anything new about the geth or technology, may encourage the Quarians to experiment more on the geth, which is a bad idea.

Why do people always say this? I don't get it. The only thing you give to the Admiralty board is the audio file made by Rael. I thought this was made pretty clear.

My memory is a little weak because I haven't played the game in a while. What I am basically saying is that if anything is obtained from Rael's research (they can easily search the Alarei if you give them a reason to - such as giving the audio file), you can't argue with results. It's clear that the Quarians are passionate about reclaiming their homeworld, this is the reason why they were conducting experiments in the first place. Rael's research was clandestine to begin with, it's not as if another group can't look at the research and how it was conducted and think they could do better. They could not do it pubicly, but that is not what Rael did anyway.

Modifié par Collider, 04 avril 2010 - 02:59 .

[sammcl]

meatbag titan wrote...

Just out of curiosity, what happens if you didn't save the council in ME2... they seemed to have such a minor (and obnoxious as always) cameo for ME2 when I saved them. I feel like it's the right choice for earning humanity's place, but man that's a big bunch of ingrates if I've ever seen one

If a full human council replaces them, you don't actually get to see them in the holograms in Anderson's office. Some alien NPCs are a bit more hostile, the Turian who runs Rodam Expeditions really doesn't like you. I dunno about the middle ground of killing the council but reinstating them, that is possible right?

[Collider]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
She acknowledged her mistake and helped you with the ciper, but she could just be dishonorable and lying to you and trying to save her own skin. 

If she still wanted to help the reapers, giving Shepard the cipher isn't the best way to do so, is it? =p She could have easily just said she doesn't know anything and she was indoctrinated and that was it.

Collider wrote...
Look at the risk your taking though.  If you don't take down Sovereign, then the power vacuum as you describe will not happen because know one will be left in the galaxy.  If you concentrate on sovereign, then you at least know that you did everything possible to neutralize the threat.

That's a good point but what one can reason that a galaxy in chaos may not be worth coming back to.

Collider wrote...
You don't see it as a reckless decision to let the queen go?  You are just going to take the queens word for it without considering the ramifications of a hostile rachni army?

I killed the Rachni queen so I was playing the devil's advocate so to speak. I'll take the Queen's word for it because she was the only word from the Rachni. I cannot blame her for the actions done in the past either.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Shandepared wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Just be aware that I understand your position, I simply disagree with it.

That won't save you. How can you possibly know enough about what is beyond the Omega-4 Relay to judge whether Tali will be vital or not? Why go to such lengs to save her on Haestrom? Why share that evidence in a public trial? That kind of thing should be kept classified anyway.

You've clearly missed the point. You're mixing up "your Shepard" with Internet Kraken's "Shepard". You're assuming that everyone is playing their Shepard with this single goal of getting through the Omega-4 Relay with the idea that there's only one way to do it. You're confusing the fact that because he chose to release the information to the Quarians to mean that he's playing the game wrong or took a wrong course of action.

Shepard is a character; he should be allowed to respond like a character with his own values, emotions, etc (within the parameters of the game). Kraken is entitled to play his Shepard in a manner that he places his party members secondary to his moral values (or whatever you would call it). You chose to play a Shepard who felt getting his companions "focused" would be the greatest chance of success. Whether or not it makes for an easier final mission is irrelevant because it's not an issue of logic- human beings do not always think logically.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 04 avril 2010 - 03:10 .

[Internet Kraken]

Shandepared wrote...



Why exactly do you feel that releasing the evidence to the public will benefit the fleet?

From a non-metagaming perspective?



Showing the evidence tells the Quarian people just how far their leaders are willing to go to wage war on the Geth. It shows them to consequences of attempting to control and fight the Geth. If the Quarians see this, they may realize that their conflict with the Geth is foolish, or will at least be much harder than they anticipated. This could stop or severely hinder the movement for war. Conversely, if you hide the evidence it may look like the attack on the Alerai was an act of Geth aggression rather than Quarian stupidity, leading the public to believe that war against the Geth is inevitable and they must strike before more attacks continue.

[thedoncarnage]

I'd like to start by stating that in both ME1 and ME2 I ended up 90% Paragon, and roughly 50% Renegade. I don't like metagaming from an immersion perspective and only have one "real" character. That said, all my decisions were my own and not influenced by hindsight.

Letting Shiala go -- This was a really tough decision for me. Then only reason I let her go was because she seemed genuinely remorseful over what she had done and indoctrination did play a factor. Mercy seemed like the just thing to do.

Letting Rana Thanoptis go -- I killed her. The difference between Rana and Shiala is that while Shiala shows genuine remorse and was influenced by indoctrination, Rana wasn't. She was freely employed by Saren to study indoctrination on live subjects. She's a mad scientist who knows no remorse.

Saving the Council -- I concentrated on Sovereign. I didn't even blink. As many others have said trying to save the Council is a poor tactical decision to make. Sovereign was an unknown threat with unknown capabilities and firepower. I wouldn't risk any forces -- human OR alien -- to save a bunch of politicians when the fate of the entire galaxy could hinge on the next couple minutes.

Saving the Collector Base - I saved it. Yes, I know the Illusive Man could use it for nefarious ends. But whatever the Illusive Man does is peanuts next to the destruction of the entire galaxy. I can always find a way to kill the Illusive Man. But we still haven't found a way to destroy the Reapers. The answer could be on that space station.

Letting the Rachni Queen live - I let her live. She's just one alien. Regardless of how fast Rachni breed it would take centuries to restore their empire. And if she really has peaceful intentions it could only help against the Reapers.

Destroying vs. Brainwashing the Heretics: I destroyed them for three reasons: 1) Heretics represent only 5% of the Geth population. That's chump change in a battle. 2) The Quarian Admiral Xen wants to brainwash the Geth. To tell her that's unethical and then turn around and do it for Legion is hypocritical. 3) Legion himself admits there's a possibility the Heretics, if rewritten, could come to the same conclusion again and worship the Reapers.

Handling Tali's trial - I withheld the evidence but privately told one of the admirals. Even though I didn't know at the time that turning over the evidence would fracture the fleet, I did know that it could be used to ferment war with the Geth -- something I don't support. I figured the status quo was the safest route.

[Collider]

Internet Kraken wrote...
Showing the evidence tells the Quarian people just how far their leaders are willing to go to wage war on the Geth.

Leader. It was just Rael and some scientists.

It shows them to consequences of attempting to control and fight the Geth.

They already know the consequences, unless they have forgotten their history, which they haven't. They already know that the Geth have beaten them. They already knew that trying to control them has it's own consequences and risks - the Quarians trying to control the Geth is the very reason why they rebelled in the first place.

If the Quarians see this, they may realize that their conflict with the Geth is foolish, or will at least be much harder than they anticipated.

I disagree. There was nothing to suggest from the research that the battle with the Geth was foolish. Basically what happened was that the geth parts reanimated and they attacked. The Quarians will not gather from Rael's research that the Geth want to be peaceful, which is the entire reason why their conflict with the Geth is foolish. They already thought that Tali brought Geth parts on the Alarei and the Geth reanimated themselves that way. They already know this stuff.

This could stop or severely hinder the movement for war.

Or it could further the war if information is yielded by the research. If Rael's research yields technology that better damages Geth shields, what do you think they are going to do with it? Nothing?

Conversely, if you hide the evidence it may look like the attack on the Alerai was an act of Geth aggression rather than Quarian stupidity,

How would the attack not be seen as aggression either way? Even when the Geth are fully capable of doing so, they did not attempt to negotiate with the Quarians, they simply attacked in surprise.

leading the public to believe that war against the Geth is inevitable and they must strike before more attacks continue.

That really does not make sense. The Quarians already in all circumstances have been treated hostile by the Geth, the Geth attacking the Quarians is nothing new. They lost nearly everyone on Haestrom, it is not as if the Heretics are only attacking out of self defense. Of course the Heretic Geth are going to attack if parts that can reanimate are brought on board.

[Bigdoser]

Just to let everyone know that rewriting the geth just means letting them think things over not brainwashing them legion says this they may come to the same conclusion again and worship the reapers. Just letting everyone know.

[Nu-Nu]

It feels right doing the more paragon thing for me. I feel guilty making renegade choices that I can't use my own name for my renegade character. My own morality and high ideals (as unrealistic as it may be) effects my choices.

Letting Shiala go - I didn't think she actually hurt anyone seriously enough to justify taking her life

Letting Rana Thanoptis go - she helped me so I give her the benefit of the doubt.

Saving the Council - they're living beings too, they deserve the right to live as much as humans too,

Destroy the Collector Base  - I felt cereberus would take more human lives to complete the weapon and use it to advance themselves, not actually caring about innocent lives
 
Letting the Rachni Queen live - she wanted us to kill the renegade rachnis that were hurting/killing people.  If she was a renegade character herself, I don't think she would have ask us to do this.

Hiding the evidence at Tali's trial - for friendship and trust.

Modifié par Nu-Nu, 04 avril 2010 - 03:35 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Shandepared wrote...


Anyone who disagrees with me about anything is inherently wrong and probably not very intelligent.

Aww, come on guy, don't be butt-hurt. Your posts are usually more classy than this from what I remember seeing. How about you stop this charade and actually debate seriously, hmm?

[Big Yam]

I always hide the evidence at Tali's trial, with or without "metagaming".  Because:

- The reaper is a larger threat to humanity than the petty Geth/Quarian conflict.  I thought I would lose Tali's loyalty if I didn't hide the evidence, and weaken our team.

- I thought the game would dump all kind of guilt on me if I exposed Rael.

- I sympethize with Rael and Xen.

- It's better for humanity to support the losing side in the Quarian/Geth conflict.  Keep them fighting each other so neither become too strong and expand into areas of human influence, and if lucky, humanity can profit from their war.  Same reason I also chose to destroy the Heretics rather than rewrite them.