253 réponses à ce sujet

[Internet Kraken]

Shandepared wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Yeah, but personally I find the idea of having sex with somebody and risking them getting horribly ill every time to be uncomfortable.

Well with repeated exposures her immune system should get stronger. So you know what means.

That doesn't detract from the fact that I still find it to be uncomfortable. Not to be rude, but why exactly are you trying to argue over my reason for staying away from the Tali romance?

[lastpawn]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
We are better off not going there lastpawn IMO.

Edit:  The reason is that although that is an interesting topic, it could derail the thread IMO.

No problem, I understand your concern. It just seems to be the most common example of metagaming abuse right after "Saving the Council" in ME universe.

[lastpawn]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Yeah, but personally I find the idea of having sex with somebody and risking them getting horribly ill every time to be uncomfortable.

Well with repeated exposures her immune system should get stronger. So you know what means.

That doesn't detract from the fact that I still find it to be uncomfortable. Not to be rude, but why exactly are you trying to argue over my reason for staying away from the Tali romance?

Because it's unacceptable that you don't want the same thing someone else wants.

[Koen Casier]

The obvious big decisions seemed always clear cut to me now this may be since I tend to think more on in terms of long-term strategy plans instead of short term tactical planning. It might also have to do with a core axiom I believe all my characters have namelly

Axiom 0: nothing (individuals including myself, species including humans, places including earth) is special until story proven otherwise. 

(also note: I did not read the "back of the box", previews or reviews since these tends to spoil surprises, I bought Me1 only on the fact that I liked all BioWare games before it).

First I thought that it was Saren en the geth where aiming to "put humans in their place" and would be using some prothean technology to do it. This lasted to about the meeting with Tali when I heard of the reapers and Saren plan to "return" them.  On the way down from the council chamber (in the elevator) I came to the conclusion: "We (as in the galactic civilizations) are royally f****d" I came to this conclusion since if the protheans (at that time still considered builders of the citadel et all) couldn't stop them while they could build something as the citadel how are we (the current galactic civilizations) going to stop them (we can't build a single relay).  It was clear from that point that "humanity alone" would not cut it.

This feeling of being in trouble increased after picking up Liara and discovering that according her the protheans where not the first to get the extermination treatment meaning basically that we where in actually even more trouble.

So when asked to destroy or save the rachni queen the decision boiled was a pure logical one:

• Best case scenario they join you fighting the reapers => very good
• Second best they stay neutral => reapers will still have more targets => good
• They attack you => killed by reapers or rachni does; it make a difference => no, so there is no real increase risk and yet again the reapers have more targets to shoot at so that is partially good (not the being killed by but having an extra distraction)
• They join the reapers => killed by reapers or rachni; does it make a difference => no, so there is no real increase in risk

Given those: you save the queen, you only marginally risk making the end of the galactic civilizations come slightly faster but you have a greater chance to give reapers one more distraction. You even get a chance making new friends (insectiod friends but they are still friends)

Saving Shiala and Rana Thanoptis where a pure role playing aspect of Shepard that he gives everyone who don't actually shoot (or are clearly about to shoot) at him as many chances as they want and need.

After speaking with Sovereign and Vigil, following additional statements were made

• they have been doing this for millions of years (I took the idea of at least 250 million years)
• their plan seems to relay on deceptions, and decapitalization of centralized command and control structures.
• they have contingency plans
• they have apparently the numbers to conquer and destroy an entire galactic civilization in 400 years.

Given the facts that

• We (humans and other civilizations) being not so special and
• they having been doing this for millions of years and
• also having been making contingency plans

This leads to the deduction: Whatever you achieve some species before you did probably something similar, and failed due to a contingency plan that was already in place. 

The decision to save council has save immediately clear consequences:

• Saving the council deludes the powerbase of the alliance (they lose more ships), gains them more respect and integrates them more in galactic society.
• Not saving the council deludes the powerbase of the council in favor of humanity this places the function of defender of the galaxy more on its shoulders.

Now we can make following statements based on knowledge and deductions;

• Somewhere down the line a civilization will have stopped the citadel relay from working and prevented the vanguard to opening it manually.  So they have a contingency plan.
• Deduction: This contigency plan could potentially bring the reapers back or at least make their comback more likely.
• Humanity's production capability is nowhere near that of any other civilization and their is probably too little time to "ramp up" and build the numbers needed to counter a fleet of Sovereign class ships.
• Deduction: So even if we don't lose single ship in the battle of the citadel and all production capability is increased a thousand fold humanity will still outgunned for decades by the reapers.
• If humanity takes on a leaderships role the other faction might not be willing to build up their forces meaning that humanity would need to build even more forces.
• Deduction Good-will and a more humble attitude between humanity and other civilizations is increases the chance of survival of humanity and other races.

So you logically save the council since failing to do so will succeed you only in saving a few ships while saving the council gives you many (better) long term benefits.
The evidence at the trail; Is mostly a logical decision their is one emotional additions:Emotional

• you really want Tali 's her loyalty.  Since this increases her survivebiltiy and she might be usefull later

Logical

• Having the loyalty of a daughter of a non disgraced deceased admiral that at the same time is viewed as something as a hero for her people and not an exile seems like a good thing.  You can call upon that. (encourage peace with geth for example)
• Hiding the evidence means that there is less of a chance for a civil war, that could be useful in so far that it is better that they fight the reapers not themselves.

so you hide the evidence.

Reprogramming the heretic geth versus destroying the heretic gethA logical decision based on the fact that

• Reprogramming is not a taboo in geth civilization (that is not to say that they are comfortable whit it or find it OK, simply that it is something you can do (you shouldn't but you can if their is a need for like firing a gun in self defense)) so doing so won't make them frown more or less upon you.
• They have apparently never seen mercy being performed by an organic to them, reprogramming them instead of completely destroying them seems more merciful. (making it possible or easier to convince them to show merci on the quarians)
• The heretic probably have some reaper intelligence that could be useful.
• The heretic ships etc can be used in the fight against the reapers (if you can convince them to join you)

So you reprogram the heretics

The collectors base: The collectors base is more deduction on circumstantial evidence then pure logical reasoning:
You must ask yourself is it really the collectors base or simply the base the reapers used to store this current itteration of the collectors. What is more likely if there are all these ancient ships floating around the base, my guess the base is older than the collectors.The chances that the reapers did not plan for the case that a species would reach the base is near 0 the base is probably a trap, maybe it has indoctrinations technology build into the walls (don't forget more then once you have had to deal with indoctrinated people while there was no reaper present only an indoctrination device), maybe it has a self destruction mechanism, maybe it so simple as the reapers having a control disabling the omega - 4 relay stranding a fleet on the other side (since that would be probably happen; ships that went there to be upgraded or ships that where build there would stay "en garde" and / or in "stand by" near the base on the colectors base side of the relay) maybe it has big storage room filled with hyper-advanced particle beam weapons ready to be installed on ships, except when the reapers send a special code these beam weapons cease to work, or self destruct, making a fleet useless.Also yet again it's very unlikely that the Cerberus can muster the production power to build / upgrade enough ships to put up a real fight against collectors without the other species helping it, that could be problem for a open "human first" organization.So you might as well make it dificult on yourself and say no to the potential rewards since then you are sure that you won't fall in that obvious trap.
Wow a long post and no jokes better add a witty coment and smiley: if anything didn't make sense remember the wizard did it:wizard: (and if it did make sense then it's also the fault of the same wizard)

Edit: the indentation rendering algorithm on the forum seems to have a little bug...

Modifié par Koen Casier, 04 avril 2010 - 05:02 .

[Collider]

I responded to you, by the way, Kraken. I'm wondering what you will say in response, but it's your choice, I know it's rather long winded. It's good to have a nice discussion once in a while :l

[Internet Kraken]

Shandepared wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...


That doesn't detract from the fact that I still find it to be uncomfortable. Not to be rude, but why exactly are you trying to argue over my reason for staying away from the Tali romance?

I was poking fun, not arguing. Jeeze.

Sorry, it's just that it's hard to tell with you sometimes. No offense intended.

Collider wrote...

I responded to you, by the way, Kraken.
I'm wondering what you will say in response, but it's your choice, I
know it's rather long winded. It's good to have a nice discussion once
in a while :l

Still thinking about it. I will probably respond tommorow actually, since it's late right now and I want some more time to consider what you said.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 04 avril 2010 - 05:01 .

[sammcl]

Internet Kraken wrote...

That is one possibility. But you seem to be suggesting that hiding the evidence will somehow magically mean the admirals don't find it. I thought that they were going to find it anyways, and that revealing the information just makes the Quarian public aware of what is going on. I thought that either way the research's results will reach the admirals

I was under the impression that the research data and evidence was downloaded to Tali's omni tool and the main copy deleted. How would hiding the truth preserve Rael's memory if she just left all that evidence around for people to find? There's a chance there's something she missed but i assumed she got it anything incriminating

On talk of paragon being the correct choice, i really think bioware's gonna pull through with ME3 and make some renegade choices end up with a better result. There are renegade players, and they deserve to finish the game, so i'm guessing all the major ally recruitment choices will be interrelated and whether you screw them all up or not, you will be able to defeat the reapers, the choices you made will affect how much collateral damage occurs in the process. If i'm right in this assumption, i think that's a pretty cool way to handle it  

[Nightwriter]

Concerning Tali's loyalty quest, I also wanted the Admiralty Board to know as little as possible about what happened on the Alarei, afraid it might provoke them further toward war.

Yes, it was their ship, they deserved to know what happened to those people, but I had the galaxy to think of. Admiral Xen had been pressing for that information, and the fact that she wanted it so badly seemed ominous, a sure sign of war.

I was firmly against geth/quarian war. Handing them the evidence meant handing them everything Rael had learned. I'd be giving them things they could use, tools of war.

[thedoncarnage]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

thedoncarnage wrote...
Did that make sense? Or did I just ramble?

Yeah I think it did.

ROFL. At least you were honest about it. I apologize, it's pretty late at night for me.

I'll try and re-word it: My decision was both moral and strategic.

I don't think the Rachni will make a big impact on the final battle with the Reapers when it comes to troops or ships. However, they may bring unconventional thinking to the table that could be invaluable to any battle strategy sessions. It can't hurt, at least.

As for their long term risk... any potential war with the Rachni would take place very far in the future and is purely speculative. That said, it would be morally unsound to condemn the entire race without irrefutable proof of a threat.

Theoretical long term risks take a back seat to the immediate Reaper threat.

[Exyle19]

On the subject of the Rachni and the short-term vs. long-term payoffs/risks I believe it is stated in the codex that a Rachni queen is capable of laying a clutch of eggs numbering in the hundreds to thousands. I got a very strong ant/bee reproductive system vibe from them.

Food for thought.

Modifié par Exyle19, 04 avril 2010 - 05:10 .

[phordicus]

why i let the rachni queen go:

   1. i'm always suspicious of simple things with clear explanations in unusual circumstances.  having the rachni be some murderous species combined with their alien insect appearance seemed designed to make us go "oh yeah, they're evil."  it's even more ridiculous considering relays aren't one-way and if conquering the galaxy was their goal, why did they wait until we breached their space to initiate it?  right, because that wasn't their goal.
   2. the queen says their song was soured by something.  it's easy to imagine that that's how indoctrination would work on a telepathic species, i.e. not truly accountable for actions under that influence, especially since on noveria you see how suicidally insane the rachni were without leadership.
   3. i rolled the dice on this creature feeling indebted to me and how badass it would be to have alien insects as allies against the reapers.

why i withheld evidence:

   1. if ever a race deserved to be wiped out by its own hand, it's the quarians.  i have no reason to artificially prop up their existence by giving them any kind of advantage over their "foes".
   2. i like tali and figured there's no way she'd sleep with me if i ratted out her dad.
   3. i hate politics.  get me involved at your own risk.  if i'm forced to play the game, i will play it by my rules and not yours and seek the best possible outcome for myself.

Modifié par phordicus, 04 avril 2010 - 05:08 .

[Collider]

I don't want any decisions from ME1 and ME2 to bar the player from having a satisfactory ending. I'd welcome the Rachni, if the writers are so inclined, to help against the Reapers, but not be the only thing deciding victory or failure. It would be unfair for those weird people (kidding) who play ME3 only. ME1 and ME2 decisions may give extra resources against the reapers, but I wouldn't want the only possible endings if you chose the "wrong" decisions (yuck) to be

a) The reapers devour everyone

You beat the reapers but the galaxy sucks now

[Collider]

phordicus wrote...
   1. if ever a race deserved to be wiped out by its own hand, it's the quarians.

Forgetting the Krogan?

[phordicus]

Collider wrote...
Forgetting the Krogan?

nope.  not forgetting.  they were well on their way to doing so already but their self-destruction seems more instinctive and... blameless, whereas the quarians are guilty of some serious hubris.

[Exyle19]

Collider wrote...

phordicus wrote...
   1. if ever a race deserved to be wiped out by its own hand, it's the quarians.

Forgetting the Krogan?

What about the Drell?

Of course not, they're cool... 

[Nightwriter]

thedoncarnage wrote...

I don't think the Rachni will make a big impact on the final battle with the Reapers when it comes to troops or ships. However, they may bring unconventional thinking to the table that could be invaluable to any battle strategy sessions. It can't hurt, at least.

As for their long term risk... any potential war with the Rachni would take place very far in the future and is purely speculative. That said, it would be morally unsound to condemn the entire race without irrefutable proof of a threat.

Theoretical long term risks take a back seat to the immediate Reaper threat.

I agree with your decision, actually. And your reasons.

We know rachni can grow exponentially, and at a very rapid rate. But how do we know they cannot control their birth rate, control population numbers?

We need their support. Long term effects? I can't help but think that space is very, very, very big. The rachni can't find themselves a nice uninhabited sector of the galaxy and fend for themselves there? If they have what they need to make ships and the like, they could just find their own Perseus Veil and live there on their own.

[Collider]

phordicus wrote...

Collider wrote...
Forgetting the Krogan?

nope.  not forgetting.  they were well on their way to doing so already but their self-destruction seems more instinctive and... blameless, whereas the quarians are guilty of some serious hubris.

We are all dictated by our instincts. The Quarians are no more guilty for doing things wrong than the Krogans are. The Quarians don't invade worlds already colonized and refuse to give conquered territory up. To not blame the Krogans for their actions is irresponsible. They were intelligent enough to develop nuclear weaponry, which is about the stage of technology and intelligence that we are currently at. Yet we can blame humans for our actions perfectly.

Modifié par Collider, 04 avril 2010 - 05:15 .

[Xaijin]

Collider wrote...

I don't want any decisions from ME1 and ME2 to bar the player from having a satisfactory ending. I'd welcome the Rachni, if the writers are so inclined, to help against the Reapers, but not be the only thing deciding victory or failure. It would be unfair for those weird people (kidding) who play ME3 only. ME1 and ME2 decisions may give extra resources against the reapers, but I wouldn't want the only possible endings if you chose the "wrong" decisions (yuck) to be
a) The reapers devour everyone
You beat the reapers but the galaxy sucks now

Hell no.

If you play a renegade jackass, you should die horribly, and so should everyone else who was DIRECTLY depending on you.

Historical jackasses almost never end well, they might accomplish their stuff (Alexander, peter the great, Hitler Stalin Chingis Khan) and then pretty much die alone and hated.

[Exyle19]

Nightwriter wrote...

I agree with your decision, actually. And your reasons.

We know rachni can grow exponentially, and at a very rapid rate. But how do we know they cannot control their birth rate, control population numbers?

We need their support. Long term effects? I can't help but think that space is very, very, very big. The rachni can't find themselves a nice uninhabited sector of the galaxy and fend for themselves there? If they have what they need to make ships and the like, they could just find their own Perseus Veil and live there on their own.

2. I agree. Keep this in mind: Mass Effect takes place in one galaxy. When you open the Galaxy Map in ME2 and see other spirals in the background, each of those is JUST AS LARGE as the space you've explored over the course of ME1 and 2.

Which leads me to a question... Do the Reapers only threaten this galaxy, or all galaxies? Is there a bigger threat facing multiple galaxies out there? Is there a second Citadel-like structure somewhere else? Is there a whole galactic civilization somewhere else out there? Just stuff to think about.

Back on the subject of the Rachni, they strike me an an infinitely patient race, and as they must not make massive use of the Mass Relays to travel (due to their insular nature) they must be accustomed to long periods of stasis or hybernation. Why not just take off for another galaxy?

This is all speculation, as I do not believe it has been stated whether or not the Rachni do indeed use Mass Relays (although it is suggested they are capable of it) or whether they even have access to conventional FTL technology. A second question I've wondered about is whether their ships are organic shells, or synthetic contructs like the rest of the galaxy's inhabitants.

I believe the Rachni were very heavily based on the Buggers from Ender's Saga, so some of these answers may lie there.

[Nightwriter]

Oh, hey, that's another one we haven't discussed - did you tell Mordin to keep that genophage data, or advise him to work on the cure?

[Collider]

Those weren't the only options. I destroyed the cure.

[thedoncarnage]

Exyle19 wrote...

On the subject of the Rachni and the short-term vs. long-term payoffs/risks I believe it is stated in the codex that a Rachni queen is capable of laying a clutch of eggs numbering in the hundreds to thousands. I got a very strong ant/bee reproductive system vibe from them.

Food for thought.

Interesting point. The wiki says it's believed that a Queen can lay one egg every few hours. Let's have some fun with math.

Let's just generously assume a Queen can lay an egg every 3 hours.

That makes 8 eggs a day.
56 eggs a week.
224 eggs a month.
2688 eggs a year.

Assuming there is just one Queen at time, it would take over 350 years for a hive to reach a population of 1 million.

That's a lot of rachni, but not a threat to galactic stability. Eden Prime alone has a population of over 3 million. Even if there are multiple Queens they wouldn't be able to reach the power of their old empire for hundreds of years.