253 réponses à ce sujet

[sammcl]

Keep the cure, I trust Mordin's judgement on the genophage issue more than my own, why should i be deciding what to do with this information when he has so much more experience?

[Exyle19]

thedoncarnage wrote...


Interesting point. The wiki says it's believed that a Queen can lay one egg every few hours. Let's have some fun with math.

Let's just generously assume a Queen can lay an egg every 3 hours.

That makes 8 eggs a day.
56 eggs a week.
224 eggs a month.
2688 eggs a year.

Assuming there is just one Queen at time, it would take over 350 years for a hive to reach a population of 1 million.

That's a lot of rachni, but not a threat to galactic stability. Eden Prime alone has a population of over 3 million. Even if there are multiple Queens they wouldn't be able to reach the power of their old empire for hundreds of years.

Also a valid point, however it is stated that there are multiple Queens in the Codex Entry for the Rachni and the Rachni Wars. It is also suggested that there are multiple queens per world. In the ME universe it appears there's roughly an average of 3-4 worlds per system, and 2-3 systems per cluster. Adds up fast, no?

[lastpawn]

Koen Casier wrote...
So you logically save the council since failing to do so will succeed you only in saving a few ships while saving the council gives you many (better) long term benefits.

You obviously put a lot of thought into your post, so I didn't dismiss it outright like I might if the above quoted is all you posted.

Here's the issue - you only know the bolded/red part through metagaming. It's what the thread is about. For all Shepard knows, asking the Fifth Fleet to save Council could weaken/delay Alliance's forces from stopping Sovereign on time.

[Internet Kraken]

Collider wrote...



Those weren't the only options. I destroyed the cure.

What exactly is the difference between telling him to destroy the cure and supporting the genophage? Aren't both of those basically the same thing?

[sammcl]

thedoncarnage wrote...

Exyle19 wrote...

On the subject of the Rachni and the short-term vs. long-term payoffs/risks I believe it is stated in the codex that a Rachni queen is capable of laying a clutch of eggs numbering in the hundreds to thousands. I got a very strong ant/bee reproductive system vibe from them.

Food for thought.

Interesting point. The wiki says it's believed that a Queen can lay one egg every few hours. Let's have some fun with math.

Let's just generously assume a Queen can lay an egg every 3 hours.

That makes 8 eggs a day.
56 eggs a week.
224 eggs a month.
2688 eggs a year.

Assuming there is just one Queen at time, it would take over 350 years for a hive to reach a population of 1 million.

That's a lot of rachni, but not a threat to galactic stability. Eden Prime alone has a population of over 3 million. Even if there are multiple Queens they wouldn't be able to reach the power of their old empire for hundreds of years.

The turian councillor said if the decision to free the Rachni was wrong our children's children would pay for it. So by human standards about 40-60 years before they were at galactic destruction level. That could just have been a figure of speech but if we're assuming that the rachni will be of some help to us against the reapers, that's probably a reasonable reproductive rate for that to occur.

[yellowpride]

Letting
Shiala and Rana Thanoptis go

For both of those, my Shepard let them go because he's a soldier, not an executioner.  Also, he really didn't see them as potentially serious threats.  If either of them had seemed like they were masterminding some aspect of Saren's plan, he might have thought differently, but in both cases they just seemed like they had gotten in over their heads.

Saving the Council

For my Shepard, the council was an important figure for galactic stability.  While he might have frequent dissagreements with them, he believes that they will be necessary in the coming fight with the Reapers.  If the human fleet left the Council to die, he probably wouldn't be able to get support from Turians, Asari, or Salarians, which, in addition to being the most influential races, are also the races with the most military might.

Destroying the Collector
Base 

This decision was more because he didn't trust the Illusive Man to use the technology ethically.  He already knows that the Illusive Man is willing to sacrifice large numbers of humans for what he consider the best interests of humanity, which are distinctly different from what Shepard would consider them to be.  While he might gain a slight edge against the Reapers, the consequences of giving Cerberus that much power were too great.  Plus, Miranda was with him, and even she didn't think it was a good idea to keep the base.

Letting the Rachni Queen live

This was a tough one for my Shepard.  Since humanity wasn't involved in the Rachni wars, he didn't have the same innate prejudice against them that another race might, but he was still aware of how other races felt.  Ultimately, he felt that killing the Rachni Queen was essentially an act of preemptive genocide, which he just couldn't do. 

Hiding the evidence at Tali's
trial

For this one, Shepard had to decide which would give Tali more closure:  protecting her father and being exiled or betraying her father and being aquitted.  He decided he'd take Tali's word for it that she could handle being exiled, but not seeing her father posthumously branded a traitor.  Then, when they got back to the trial, he figured he had nothing to lose, so he threw the Hail Mary and called the Admirals out on their ulterior motives. 

Rewriting the Geth Heretics

This was another tough one for my Shepard.  On one hand, he has years of experience telling him that any synthetic capable of independent thinking will reach the conclusion that organics are unnecessary and decide to annihilate them.  On the other hand, Legion possibly saved his life on the derelict Reaper, volunteered for his mission to help a bunch of human colonists, and outright telling him that the geth he faced previously are not true geth, all of which means that there is more to the geth than Shepard previously understood.  Therefore, he has no definitive answer about the possiblity of future coexistence with the geth. 
So then, it just came down to a choice of possibly strengthening an ally (with the risk of strengthening an enemy) or possibly weakening an enemy (with the risk of weakening an ally).  Ultimately, he figured that since the true geth were definitely opposed to the Reapers (otherwise there would have been no split in the first place) and seemingly indifferent to organics (they've stayed in their own part of the galaxy for 300+ years), their value as an ally outweighed their potential threat.

[Collider]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Collider wrote...

Those weren't the only options. I destroyed the cure.

What exactly is the difference between telling him to destroy the cure and supporting the genophage? Aren't both of those basically the same thing?

This was the post I was resonding to:

did you tell Mordin to keep that genophage data, or advise him to work on the cure?

Neither of them are destroying the cure

Modifié par Collider, 04 avril 2010 - 05:33 .

[lastpawn]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

lastpawn wrote...
Letting the Rachni Queen live -- The queen talked to you. You're told that the Rachni did not attempt communication during the wars. This lends credence to her story. There is also the potential of her being an ally (as Shepard explains to Wrex). Besides, if a single mother of a species is capable of destroying the entire Galaxy unchecked, that Galaxy deserves to be destroyed. While I see compelling reasons both ways, I lean towards it being a large but potentially highly profitable risk.

I agreed with the majority of your argument except for this.  My reasoning is that unless the Rachni have a ridiculous growth rate, then they are no help to us as allies and therfore there is no profit to the risk.

The longterm risk is hostility and war.  I can see the argument that this is looking too far in the future and the galaxy can handle it.  I am just not sure I want to be responsible because I decided to save the Queen.

Like I said, this is one of those "on the fence" ones. My take wasn't so much Rachni providing numbers per se, but rather their own unique technology, knowledge, and perspective. As we find out, there is no other known race in the Galaxy like them.

[Nightwriter]

Exyle19 wrote...

Which leads me to a question... Do the Reapers only threaten this galaxy, or all galaxies? Is there a bigger
threat facing multiple galaxies out there? Is there a second Citadel-like structure somewhere else? Is there a whole galactic civilization somewhere else out there? Just stuff to think about.

Now here's something I've given a lot of thought. I can still remember Sovereign telling me there is a realm of existence so far beyond my own I cannot even imagine it.

This had me starting to think bigger, start to consider all the places the Reapers could travel to and see. It's definitely an intriguing thought.

Back on the subject of the Rachni, they strike me an an infinitely patient race, and as they must not make massive use of the Mass Relays to travel (due to their insular nature) they must be accustomed to long periods of stasis or hybernation. Why not just take off for another galaxy?

Actually, I've never thought about this - do mass relays connect to other galaxies? There'd need to be another mass relay on the other side, I guess. I suppose if the Reapers can travel to other galaxies, there probably would be other mass relays there, too.

This is all speculation, as I do not believe it has been stated whether or not the Rachni do indeed use Mass Relays (although it is suggested they are capable of it) or whether they even have access to conventional FTL technology. A second question I've wondered about is whether their ships are organic shells, or synthetic contructs like the rest of the galaxy's inhabitants.

I believe the Rachni were very heavily based on the Buggers from Ender's Saga, so some of these answers may lie there.

Oh, if it wasn't at least inspired a little bit by the buggers I'd be surprised. I shall reluctantly admit that Ender's discovery that the bugger queen was a gentle creature had something to do with my sparing the rachni queen.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 04 avril 2010 - 05:36 .

[Exyle19]

yellowpride wrote...

Rewriting the Geth Heretics

This was another tough one for my Shepard.  On one hand, he has years of experience telling him that any synthetic capable of independent thinking will reach the conclusion that organics are unnecessary and decide to annihilate them.  On the other hand, Legion possibly saved his life on the derelict Reaper, volunteered for his mission to help a bunch of human colonists, and outright telling him that the geth he faced previously are not true geth, all of which means that there is more to the geth than Shepard previously understood.  Therefore, he has no definitive answer about the possiblity of future coexistence with the geth. 
So then, it just came down to a choice of possibly strengthening an ally (with the risk of strengthening an enemy) or possibly weakening an enemy (with the risk of weakening an ally).  Ultimately, he figured that since the true geth were definitely opposed to the Reapers (otherwise there would have been no split in the first place) and seemingly indifferent to organics (they've stayed in their own part of the galaxy for 300+ years), their value as an ally outweighed their potential threat.

Forgot about this one, although my reasons were largely similar, and the great thing here is that we don't have the advantage of hindsight.

It it said that the heretics are the minority of the Geth race, numbering perhaps as low as 5%. While it's true that not all of these Geth may not reach the same conclusion that helping the Reapers is the correct decision, we have to assume that at least a portion of them will keep the new point of view after having experienced both sides of the argument and having access to memories of interactions with organics that do not consist of Geth getting blowed up.

I didn't really see the virus as brainwashing, but instead something more along the lines of a nervous breakdown, as Legion himself says that the change itself will likely not be permanent.

[Collider]

Nightwriter wrote...
Now here's something I've given a lot of thought. I can still remember Sovereign telling me there is a realm of existence so far beyond my own I cannot even imagine it.

This had me starting to think bigger, start to consider all the places the Reapers could travel to and see. It's definitely an intriguing thought.

If they were talking about alternate universes, I doubt that the Reapers would be able to be phased and beaten by a puny human. I tend to think that Sovereign's prideful dialogue is just him demoralizing Shepard and beating his reaper chest.

Actually, I've never thought about this - do mass relays connect to other galaxies? There'd need to be another mass relay on the other side, I guess. I suppose if the Reapers can travel to other galaxies, there probably would be other mass relays there, too.

I don't know. The Reapers you see floating to the Milky Way have to get there someway, or they're wasting their time. A mass relay would help.

Oh, if it wasn't at least inspired a little bit by the buggers I'd be surprised. I shall reluctantly admit that Ender's discovery that the bugger queen was a gentle creature had something to do with my sparing the rachni queen.

You have to wonder as to why the Queens were so hostile in commanding the Rachni in the Rachni Wars. It's probably just like an animal mom attacking anything that gets in her territory and possibly hurting her babies, though.

[Nightwriter]

Collider wrote...

This was the post I was resonding to:

did you tell Mordin to keep that genophage data, or advise him to work on the cure?

Neither of them are destroying the cure

I didn't mean these were the only options, you know. Just tossing out sample decisions.

Replace the comma with a dash and that's what it sounded like in my head. Not that anyone could hear it but me.

[Nightwriter]

Collider wrote...

You have to wonder as to why the Queens were so hostile in commanding the Rachni in the Rachni Wars. It's probably just like an animal mom attacking anything that gets in her territory and possibly hurting her babies, though.

Because the Reapers soured their songs. The asari on Illium said something about this.

Long story short, the Reapers sicced the rachni on the galaxy. Why? We can only guess.

[Collider]

Ah, I see. They probably used the rachni to soften the galaxy up for the culling.

[thedoncarnage]

sammcl wrote...

The turian councillor said if the decision to free the Rachni was wrong our children's children would pay for it. .

Ah yes, the "Turian Councillor." We have dismissed his claims.

Just kidding! It's a tough decision, truly, but I still stand by it even without metagaming. I kept the genophage cure for the same reason. The Krogan are a bad apple in the Milky Way but potential for future conflict is purely speculative and should take a backseat to the immediate threat of the Reapers.

@Exyle 19: You brought up something on the last page about other galaxies and the potential of a universe-wide threat from the Reapers. I'm getting off-topic here but I remember a thread from a while back that dealt with this. I think the consensus was that even though it's possible the Reapers have been farming other galaxies it's unlikely due to the sheer distances involved. The distances between galaxies are so mind blowingly large that they make traveling the breadth of our own galaxy look easy. I dunno, I could still see it happening but I remember a lot of other forum readers were really aggressive in saying it was impossible.

Modifié par thedoncarnage, 04 avril 2010 - 05:54 .

[Collider]

thedoncarnage wrote...
The Krogan are a bad apple in the Milky Way but potential for future conflict is purely speculative and unfair to future generations.

Unfair, but not purely speculative. Mordin states that all population increase in Krogans have led to war invariably. Plus there's the whole Krogan Rebellion thing.

[JedTed]

With the exception of the rachni and the geth heretics, i made all of those decisions without a lot of thought.



Rachni: I let the Queen go because i believed that they could be a powerful ally should anything bad happen in the future.



Heretics: This one is partly because of ethics but also because i don't trust them not to worship the Reapers again so it's safer to kill em.



The Council: I sacrificed the Council because i decided it was better to focus the entire fleet on Sovereign. I didn't think about politics of letting the Council die because i was focused on taking Sovereign down, and seeing as most of the Citadel fleet was destroyed in the intial attack the full force of the Alliance fleet was needed.



The only other metagame decision i can think of is giving the geth data to Tali but i can't think of any other rationale for that one.

[Exyle19]

Collider wrote...

Actually, I've never thought about this - do mass relays connect to other galaxies? There'd need to be another mass relay on the other side, I guess. I suppose if the Reapers can travel to other galaxies, there probably would be other mass relays there, too.

I don't know. The Reapers you see floating to the Milky Way have to get there someway, or they're wasting their time. A mass relay would help.

Well the thing is, we know (by assuming that Vigil was correct) that the Reapers hibernate out in darkspace which I take to mean the empty void between galaxies. This means 1 of two things, either each Reaper is point A of its own Mass Relay link, capable of connecting to any other (which we know cannot be the case, or else why need the Citadel to bring them all back? Couldn't the other Reapers just use Sovereign as their point B?) or that there is indeed a Mass Relay out beyond the edges of the galaxy.

What I'm confused about is that each Mass Relay is apparently a 1 to 1 link... So why is it possible to enter a system from nearly any other system?

[Internet Kraken]

Collider wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Collider wrote...

Those weren't the only options. I destroyed the cure.

What exactly is the difference between telling him to destroy the cure and supporting the genophage? Aren't both of those basically the same thing?

This was the post I was resonding to:

did you tell Mordin to keep that genophage data, or advise him to work on the cure?

Neither of them are destroying the cure

I know, I was just asking becuase you said you destroyed the cure. I've never done that. I'be supproted the genophage but never tried telling Mordin to destroy the cure, so I'm wondering what happens.

[Nightwriter]

thedoncarnage wrote...

Ah yes, the "Turian Councillor." We have dismissed his claims.

Just kidding! It's a tough decision, truly, but I still stand by it even without metagaming. I kept the genophage cure for the same reason. The Krogan are a bad apple in the Milky Way but potential for future conflict is purely speculative and should take a backseat to the immediate threat of the Reapers.

@Exyle 19: You brought up something on the last page about other galaxies and the potential of a universe-wide threat from the Reapers. I'm getting off-topic here but I remember a thread from a while back that dealt with this. I think the consensus was that even though it's possible the Reapers have been farming other galaxies it's unlikely due to the sheer distances involved. The distances between galaxies are so mind blowingly large that they make traveling the breadth of our own galaxy look easy. I dunno, I could still see it happening but I remember a lot of other forum readers were really aggressive in saying it was impossible.

They're always so adamant about that. It simply CANNOT be possible.

I think such statements lack a certain open-mindedness. Just because such a feat doesn't fit into our definitions of what the universe is now doesn't mean it's impossible. The Reapers are insanely advanced. Who knows what they've discovered, what they can do? Look at all we've done we thought we couldn't do.

Higher science itself is in constant fluctuation. We are learning things about time and space that radically contradict our previous beliefs and understandings of the universe. We should not be so quick to judge.

[Collider]

Oh, I see. What is the difference? I could see Mordin using the data for breeding more resistant and efficient genophage strains.