253 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

Nightwriter brought up the great point that the Rachni appeared to have been affected by the Reapers in the Rachni War. Since that no longer is the case with the Queen, the possibility of war seems to drop drastically. Of course, Shepard does not know this for certain at the time of the decision.

[sammcl]

thedoncarnage wrote...

sammcl wrote...

The turian councillor said if the decision to free the Rachni was wrong our children's children would pay for it. .

Ah yes, the "Turian Councillor." We have dismissed his claims.

Just kidding! It's a tough decision, truly, but I still stand by it even without metagaming. I kept the genophage cure for the same reason. The Krogan are a bad apple in the Milky Way but potential for future conflict is purely speculative and should take a backseat to the immediate threat of the Reapers.

@Exyle 19: You brought up something on the last page about other galaxies and the potential of a universe-wide threat from the Reapers. I'm getting off-topic here but I remember a thread from a while back that dealt with this. I think the consensus was that even though it's possible the Reapers have been farming other galaxies it's unlikely due to the sheer distances involved. The distances between galaxies are so mind blowingly large that they make traveling the breadth of our own galaxy look easy. I dunno, I could still see it happening but I remember a lot of other forum readers were really aggressive in saying it was impossible.

Hah, nice joke i actually laughed at that, not the reflexive "lol" that people seem to post about anything no matter how unfunny

What's stopping the reapers having a citadel relay in every galaxy and a nice little collection of linking relays out in dark space? They're obviously very patient, watching us for 50000 years and hanging out in dark space (although that was just the Protheans' guess) maybe they're actually harvesting multiple galaxies, one every 500 years, and now the stinkin' Protheans have thrown a spanner in the works by breaking the keepers

[thedoncarnage]

Nightwriter wrote...

They're always so adamant about that. It simply CANNOT be possible.

I think such statements lack a certain open-mindedness. Just because such a feat doesn't fit into our definitions of what the universe is now doesn't mean it's impossible. The Reapers are insanely advanced. Who knows what they've discovered, what they can do? Look at all we've done we thought we couldn't do.

Higher science itself is in constant fluctuation. We are learning things about time and space that radically contradict our previous beliefs and understandings of the universe. We should not be so quick to judge.

LOL so true, so true. A few hundred years ago men were burned at the stake for suggesting the Earth revolved around the Sun. Besides, it's Science Fiction. Bioware can really dream up any concept they want theoretically. There really is nothing keeping the Reapers from having a universe-wide fast food chain in operation. Ok, waiting for entire civilizations to evolve might not actually be "fast food" but still.

Back on topic... yeah... metagaming... fun stuff.

Modifié par thedoncarnage, 04 avril 2010 - 06:18 .

[Xaijin]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

yellowpride wrote...
Saving the Council

For my Shepard, the council was an important figure for galactic stability.  While he might have frequent dissagreements with them, he believes that they will be necessary in the coming fight with the Reapers.  If the human fleet left the Council to die, he probably wouldn't be able to get support from Turians, Asari, or Salarians, which, in addition to being the most influential races, are also the races with the most military might.

What about the actual battle of the Citadel and the need to elminate Sovereign?

The councilors are on of the largest warships ever made. with guns.

[Exyle19]

Don, Nightwriter. Sent you PMs to try and avoid derailment.

[sammcl]

Xaijin wrote...

The councilors are on of the largest warships ever made. with guns.

But it's quite obviously been disabled, if they can't blow up some geth ships how are they meant to turn around and shoot Sovereign?

[lastpawn]

Exyle19 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Actually, I've never thought about this - do mass relays connect to other galaxies? There'd need to be another mass relay on the other side, I guess. I suppose if the Reapers can travel to other galaxies, there probably would be other mass relays there, too.

I don't know. The Reapers you see floating to the Milky Way have to get there someway, or they're wasting their time. A mass relay would help.

Well the thing is, we know (by assuming that Vigil was correct) that the Reapers hibernate out in darkspace which I take to mean the empty void between galaxies. This means 1 of two things, either each Reaper is point A of its own Mass Relay link, capable of connecting to any other (which we know cannot be the case, or else why need the Citadel to bring them all back? Couldn't the other Reapers just use Sovereign as their point B?) or that there is indeed a Mass Relay out beyond the edges of the galaxy.

What I'm confused about is that each Mass Relay is apparently a 1 to 1 link... So why is it possible to enter a system from nearly any other system?

No need to speculate, this was answered or at least hinted to heavy-handedly in ME1. The Citadel is a one-way Relay. Reapers use it to teleport and immediately launch an attack at the very center of (new) galactic civilization. The likely speculation is that it's a one-way Relay because they don't want some advanced race discovering how to use it and launching an attack against the Reapers while they're hibernating and vulnerable.

[Xaijin]

sammcl wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

The councilors are on of the largest warships ever made. with guns.

But it's quite obviously been disabled, if they can't blow up some geth ships how are they meant to turn around and shoot Sovereign?

Slowly.

[sammcl]

lastpawn wrote...

Exyle19 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Actually, I've never thought about this - do mass relays connect to other galaxies? There'd need to be another mass relay on the other side, I guess. I suppose if the Reapers can travel to other galaxies, there probably would be other mass relays there, too.

I don't know. The Reapers you see floating to the Milky Way have to get there someway, or they're wasting their time. A mass relay would help.

Well the thing is, we know (by assuming that Vigil was correct) that the Reapers hibernate out in darkspace which I take to mean the empty void between galaxies. This means 1 of two things, either each Reaper is point A of its own Mass Relay link, capable of connecting to any other (which we know cannot be the case, or else why need the Citadel to bring them all back? Couldn't the other Reapers just use Sovereign as their point B?) or that there is indeed a Mass Relay out beyond the edges of the galaxy.

What I'm confused about is that each Mass Relay is apparently a 1 to 1 link... So why is it possible to enter a system from nearly any other system?

No need to speculate, this was answered or at least hinted to heavy-handedly in ME1. The Citadel is a one-way Relay. Reapers use it to teleport and immediately launch an attack at the very center of (new) galactic civilization. The likely speculation is that it's a one-way Relay because they don't want some advanced race discovering how to use it and launching an attack against the Reapers while they're hibernating and vulnerable.

Pretty sure Vigil says the reapers went back through the citadel relay before he woke up the Prothean researchers, so it's not one way. And relays are one to one, if you watch the map as you're travelling to other systems it has a red line showing the route you take, you can't get to any system from any relay.

[slackbheep]

Honestly the only one of the decisions mentioned by the OP which I couldn't justify easily on my main paragon play through was rewriting the Geth. The "brainwashing" felt like something my character would be against, even if you are just offsetting the reapers original influence. In the end I decided to trust Legion, as much as I find the Geth unsympathetic.

Rana and Shiala both came off as having believed Saren was working for the greater good and should be motivated to make amends with their second chance. (Seems one of them is, at least.)

Saving the Council was the obvious decision to me leaving them to die just seemed like it would cause chaos, not to mention show humanity as unwilling to stand by the rest of galactic society instead looking out for themselves.

As for Tali's loyalty mission, I admit I was inclined to do as Tali wanted given she's one of my favorite characters in the game but in the end what stopped me from turning in the evidence despite this was the belief that Admiral Xen and co would continue the research and cause more trouble. Trying to take control of the Geth again doesn't seem like a good idea, at all.

And finally as a fan of of the Enders Game series by Orson Scott Card I could never kill the Rachni queen. I will not become Shepard the Genocide.

[Xaijin]

Except both the Turians and Asari keep nearby fleets.

[yellowpride]

There's not necessarily a tactical advantage to letting the Council die. At the point that you have the option to open the relay, the Citadel fleet is overwhelmed by the geth, but it's not destroyed. By flanking the geth ships, you save more of the Citadel fleet, which could give you more potential firepower against Sovereign.

[cos1ne]

This is my reasoning for saving the council. These are what we know at the time.



Saren is dead, Shepard is apparently at the controls to the Citadel.

Sovereign just decimated the Council fleet and is trying to activate the Citadel relay.

The Destiny Ascension has the council on it and will be destroyed without assistance.

The Alliance fleet is waiting behind, until Shepard opens the arms OR joins the battle and attacks WHEN shepard opens the arms.



So therefore, the way I see it, the alliance fleet is either going to have to fight through the geth fleet to get to Sovereign anyway, or the alliance fleet will be picked off by geth warships on their mad dash to Sovereign.



I assume that the Council fleet hasn't been completely annihilated yet, so I assume that any Alliance ships that are lost will be made up for by all the Turian/Asari ships that are saved from destruction. When the arms are finally opened and the attack on Sovereign is able to begin.



Now let's say because I saved the council, the alliance fleet can't destroy Sovereign, well my Shepard still is in charge of the Citadel controls I'm sure there is some sort of way to destroy the Citadel or at least disable it enough to thwart Sovereign's plans. This is my plan Z, as in the last course of action before ultimate failure.



If you claim saving the council is metagaming, assuming the alliance fleet can defeat Sovereign is metagaming too, you can't know if the attack will succeed even at full force. Which means that the decision to save the council has a lot more going for it if victory is an unknown. Because if you assume a worst case scenario with you saving the council, or at least allowing it a chance to escape, Sovereign opens up the relay and an army of reapers comes through.



In a real world scenario this does not guarantee a GAME OVER. Surely it would be a crippling loss for the Council/Alliance but you still have a chance to regroup your forces and wage the war against the reapers. The odds are against you but Sovereign not being defeated there doesn't mean that the reapers automatically win.



Therefore, I defend my choice to save the Council, because I feel it serves humanity's best interests to be seen as the saviors of the council races so that in case the assault on Sovereign fails, at least a united galaxy would stand against the reaper army.

[Nightwriter]

So many of people's opinions on these issues just boil down to, "I was willing to take that chance" or "I couldn't take that chance".

And that's such a subjective thing to say, such a subjective call. We tend to want to submit our feelings as evidence. Probably because they're what really guide our decisions most strongly, and when you ask us why we made a certain decision that's the first thing we're going to think of.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 04 avril 2010 - 06:52 .

[yellowpride]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

yellowpride wrote...

There's not necessarily a tactical advantage to letting the Council die. At the point that you have the option to open the relay, the Citadel fleet is overwhelmed by the geth, but it's not destroyed. By flanking the geth ships, you save more of the Citadel fleet, which could give you more potential firepower against Sovereign.

Isn't the Destiny Ascension getting overwhelmed by the Geth and not the Alliance Fleet?

Yeah, the Destiny Ascension is getting overwhelmed along with the Citadel fleet.  While the main focus is the Destiny Ascension, it's not the only ship you stand to save by opening the relay. 

[yellowpride]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

yellowpride wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

yellowpride wrote...

There's not necessarily a tactical advantage to letting the Council die. At the point that you have the option to open the relay, the Citadel fleet is overwhelmed by the geth, but it's not destroyed. By flanking the geth ships, you save more of the Citadel fleet, which could give you more potential firepower against Sovereign.

Isn't the Destiny Ascension getting overwhelmed by the Geth and not the Alliance Fleet?

Yeah, the Destiny Ascension is getting overwhelmed along with the Citadel fleet.  While the main focus is the Destiny Ascension, it's not the only ship you stand to save by opening the relay. 

That is my point.  The Destiny Ascension is the main focus of the Geth.  While the Geth are preoccupied with the Destiny, the Alliance Fleet can concentrate on Sovereign.

But the Destiny Ascension can only distract them for so long without help.  Leaving it on it's own risks the geth destroying it and then having enough time to prepare for the incoming Alliance fleet.  Or, if the Destiny Ascension is able to hold out longer, you risk the geth flanking the Alliance fleet while they're focusing on Sovereign.  Flanking the Geth while their still distracted with the Ascension is the best way to make sure they're out of the way so you can destroy Sovereign.

[lastpawn]

cos1ne wrote...

This is my reasoning for saving the council. These are what we know at the time.

The Alliance fleet is waiting behind, until Shepard opens the arms OR joins the battle and attacks WHEN shepard opens the arms.

I have a problem with this. How does Shepard know this prior to it happening? If watched the video online to confirm, and there is no indication of this - the particular timing of the gate opening isn't made clear UNTIL Shepard makes that decision. Specifically, there is no way for Shepard to know that Alliance has the time to assist council and THEN fight Sovereign without you the player knowing this - i.e., metagaming. 

For all Shepard know, the fate of the galaxy could be decided by seconds - seconds that could be lost because the Alliance assists the Council. It so happens that everything works out nicely, but we know this after the fact. Shepard doesn't.