112 réponses à ce sujet

[ExtremeOne]

Miranda is one of the best Squad Members but I am sure some can not deal with her because most on here hate Cerberus

[Foolsfolly]

But Samara's just as good at starting the Warp combo as Jacob is (except you get Jacob at the beginning) and Samara's a more versatile character with a much stronger bonus power.



Jacob gets obsolete quickly. I'd say Jack does too but sometimes a Squad Warp Ammo goes a long way.

[Sleepicub09]

Phaelducan wrote...

To Smudboy, I disagree. The story of ME2 IS the story of your squadmates on the suicide mission. They don't drive the plot.... they are the plot.

Exactly which people can't seem to understand.

[smudboy]

Phaelducan wrote...

To Smudboy, I disagree. The story of ME2 IS the story of your squadmates on the suicide mission. They don't drive the plot.... they are the plot.

How does the story of ME2 have anything to do with what ME3 should be if there are less characters in it?  In storytelling, if there's no reason to have elements or things that don't have a purpose or value to the main plot, it should be removed.  It's called editing (See Star Wars: The Phantom Menace.)

No, the plot is "Stop the Collectors, from taking human colonies."

This is not a character driven narrative.  That would be something completely different.

[smudboy]

Sleepicub09 wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

To Smudboy, I disagree. The story of ME2 IS the story of your squadmates on the suicide mission. They don't drive the plot.... they are the plot.

Exactly which people can't seem to understand.

And many more people can't understand the main plot.

[Phaelducan]

Foolsfolly wrote...

But Samara's just as good at starting the Warp combo as Jacob is (except you get Jacob at the beginning) and Samara's a more versatile character with a much stronger bonus power.

Jacob gets obsolete quickly. I'd say Jack does too but sometimes a Squad Warp Ammo goes a long way.

Jacob can tank with Barrier though, it doesn't matter for all PC classes, but it's still a viable option. I'm not saying Samara doesn't rock... she does, but that doesn't mean the Jacob sucks.

[Sleepicub09]

smudboy wrote...

Sleepicub09 wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

To Smudboy, I disagree. The story of ME2 IS the story of your squadmates on the suicide mission. They don't drive the plot.... they are the plot.

Exactly which people can't seem to understand.

And many more people can't understand the main plot.

The Main  Plot:
Shepard must recruit a successful team to bring down the collector who have been randomly abducting human colonies.

are you telling me that above Plot wasn't fulfilled?

[Phaelducan]

smudboy wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

To Smudboy, I disagree. The story of ME2 IS the story of your squadmates on the suicide mission. They don't drive the plot.... they are the plot.

How does the story of ME2 have anything to do with what ME3 should be if there are less characters in it?  In storytelling, if there's no reason to have elements or things that don't have a purpose or value to the main plot, it should be removed.  It's called editing (See Star Wars: The Phantom Menace.)

No, the plot is "Stop the Collectors, from taking human colonies."

This is not a character driven narrative.  That would be something completely different.

That's the premise, not the plot. Look at the promos, even look at the advertisements. Bioware SOLD this game by pushing the suicide mission aspect. Yes, the premise is to stop the collectors... you do that by recruiting the best squad in the galaxy, gaining their trust and loyalty, and leading them into the heart of darkness.

Your statement only holds true in the scenario that Shephard dies. Congratulations... you stopped the collectors... and everyone is dead and you don't get to import to ME3. /golfclap

Seriously, the narrative in ME2 doesn't involve your squad and their stories... it's the driving force being the narrative.

[smudboy]

Sleepicub09 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Sleepicub09 wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

To Smudboy, I disagree. The story of ME2 IS the story of your squadmates on the suicide mission. They don't drive the plot.... they are the plot.

Exactly which people can't seem to understand.

And many more people can't understand the main plot.

The Main  Plot:
Shepard must recruit a successful team to bring down the collector who have been randomly abducting human colonies.

are you telling me that above Plot wasn't fulfilled?

Exactly.

What's a successful team?  What are you being successful at?  Since throughout the entire game, we've next to no clue how we're going to stop the Collectors.  We're not told why (save Mordin) we're getting x number of squadmates.  We could've had 10 more and it would've made no difference, save BioWare's production schedule.

As a plot, ME2 fails completely.

[smudboy]

Phaelducan wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

To Smudboy, I disagree. The story of ME2 IS the story of your squadmates on the suicide mission. They don't drive the plot.... they are the plot.

How does the story of ME2 have anything to do with what ME3 should be if there are less characters in it?  In storytelling, if there's no reason to have elements or things that don't have a purpose or value to the main plot, it should be removed.  It's called editing (See Star Wars: The Phantom Menace.)

No, the plot is "Stop the Collectors, from taking human colonies."

This is not a character driven narrative.  That would be something completely different.

That's the premise, not the plot. Look at the promos, even look at the advertisements. Bioware SOLD this game by pushing the suicide mission aspect. Yes, the premise is to stop the collectors... you do that by recruiting the best squad in the galaxy, gaining their trust and loyalty, and leading them into the heart of darkness.

Your statement only holds true in the scenario that Shephard dies. Congratulations... you stopped the collectors... and everyone is dead and you don't get to import to ME3. /golfclap

Seriously, the narrative in ME2 doesn't involve your squad and their stories... it's the driving force being the narrative.

So what's the plot then?

[Sleepicub09]

smudboy wrote...

Sleepicub09 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Sleepicub09 wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

To Smudboy, I disagree. The story of ME2 IS the story of your squadmates on the suicide mission. They don't drive the plot.... they are the plot.

Exactly which people can't seem to understand.

And many more people can't understand the main plot.

The Main  Plot:
Shepard must recruit a successful team to bring down the collector who have been randomly abducting human colonies.

are you telling me that above Plot wasn't fulfilled?

Exactly.

What's a successful team?  What are you being successful at?  Since throughout the entire game, we've next to no clue how we're going to stop the Collectors.  We're not told why (save Mordin) we're getting x number of squadmates.  We could've had 10 more and it would've made no difference, save BioWare's production schedule.

As a plot, ME2 fails completely.

actually we were told you just wasn't paying attention. you needed someone with Tech skills, Biotic abilities, and people to hold the line. A wall holds better than a fence.

[smudboy]

Sleepicub09 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Sleepicub09 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Sleepicub09 wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

To Smudboy, I disagree. The story of ME2 IS the story of your squadmates on the suicide mission. They don't drive the plot.... they are the plot.

Exactly which people can't seem to understand.

And many more people can't understand the main plot.

The Main  Plot:
Shepard must recruit a successful team to bring down the collector who have been randomly abducting human colonies.

are you telling me that above Plot wasn't fulfilled?

Exactly.

What's a successful team?  What are you being successful at?  Since throughout the entire game, we've next to no clue how we're going to stop the Collectors.  We're not told why (save Mordin) we're getting x number of squadmates.  We could've had 10 more and it would've made no difference, save BioWare's production schedule.

As a plot, ME2 fails completely.

actually we were told you just wasn't paying attention. you needed someone with Tech skills, Biotic abilities, and people to hold the line. A wall holds better than a fence.

Then tell me: why do we need someone with tech skills?  Why do we need someone with biotic abilities?  Why do we need people to hold the line?  When are we told we need these characters and for what purpose?

[Phaelducan]

http://en.wikipedia....s_Effect_2#Plot

[smudboy]

Phaelducan wrote...

http://en.wikipedia....s_Effect_2#Plot

That's a plot summary.  Give me your version of the plot, since mine is wrong.

[Phaelducan]

It's not that it's wrong, it's that you are oversimplifying it. There is more to it than the premise you stated, as confirmed in the "plot" summary.



The squadmates aren't tertiary, they are primary.

[Shazzammer2]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Miranda is one of the best Squad Members but I am sure some can not deal with her because most on here hate Cerberus

Why just Miranda? Why not Samara or Jack ...hell why not the rest of the team? They all seemed underplayed imo.

[WarChicken78]

Even I don't like Miranda, she indeed is the most useful Squadmate - in the beginning.

Overload for shields and synthetics and warp for everything else. That helps a lot.

But from the point on when you have all (or all but legion, because you can't get him without triggering the last mission) squadmates, Miranda gets obsolete, because you don't really need allrounders, but specialists.

If I go on a Mission that has lots of Geth or mechs and few organic enemies, I choose Tali and Garrus (or Legion if available already) to wreck Hell on the enemies.

If I go on a mission with organic enemies, I either take the biotic team from hell (Thats Samara and Thane - especually useful against hordes of Husks) Or the Bulletrain-Squad (Thats Grunt and Zaeed or Garrus).

Miranda is just not needed at that point anymore.



Jacob is meh. Even I do not share the common Jacob-hate common here (when I'm playing a male shep - my females can't stand him), he's just not useful enough in combat to take him with me.

[smudboy]

Phaelducan wrote...

It's not that it's wrong, it's that you are oversimplifying it. There is more to it than the premise you stated, as confirmed in the "plot" summary.

The squadmates aren't tertiary, they are primary.

Okay, then tell me what the plot is then, since I'm now more confused since my simplification was too much.

How are the squadmates primary?  Because TIM said so?  Why?

[Phaelducan]

WarChicken78 wrote...

Even I don't like Miranda, she indeed is the most useful Squadmate - in the beginning.
Overload for shields and synthetics and warp for everything else. That helps a lot.
But from the point on when you have all (or all but legion, because you can't get him without triggering the last mission) squadmates, Miranda gets obsolete, because you don't really need allrounders, but specialists.
If I go on a Mission that has lots of Geth or mechs and few organic enemies, I choose Tali and Garrus (or Legion if available already) to wreck Hell on the enemies.
If I go on a mission with organic enemies, I either take the biotic team from hell (Thats Samara and Thane - especually useful against hordes of Husks) Or the Bulletrain-Squad (Thats Grunt and Zaeed or Garrus).
Miranda is just not needed at that point anymore.

Jacob is meh. Even I do not share the common Jacob-hate common here (when I'm playing a male shep - my females can't stand him), he's just not useful enough in combat to take him with me.

Give him a try specced to Pull Field, Max Barrier, and Max Cerberus HP
Combine him with anyone with Unstable Warp. He can pull his weight np.

[Sleepicub09]

smudboy wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

It's not that it's wrong, it's that you are oversimplifying it. There is more to it than the premise you stated, as confirmed in the "plot" summary.

The squadmates aren't tertiary, they are primary.

Okay, then tell me what the plot is then, since I'm now more confused since my simplification was too much.

How are the squadmates primary?  Because TIM said so?  Why?

Let me ask you this. If you knew your survival odds were next to none would you walk into your enemies base with just 4 people or would you wanna have a whole team backing you up?

[Phaelducan]

smudboy wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

It's not that it's wrong, it's that you are oversimplifying it. There is more to it than the premise you stated, as confirmed in the "plot" summary.

The squadmates aren't tertiary, they are primary.

Okay, then tell me what the plot is then, since I'm now more confused since my simplification was too much.

How are the squadmates primary?  Because TIM said so?  Why?

Really? Because TIM said so? If you don't want to discuss the issue fine, but no need to get flippant.
They are primary because Bioware made them the principal focus of the game. Most of the NPC's talk to you about "not having the right people" or "needing the right specialists" or something to that effect. They say you need to have everyone recruited and focused on the mission... not for fluff... but because that is the point of the game. If you want to succeed (and I define success by surviving and having a Shep to import to ME3), you will need to recruit/do loyalty missions.

I don't know why this is a point of contention... seriously look up some of the interviews and/or promos from Bioware staff about the game.

[smudboy]

Sleepicub09 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

It's not that it's wrong, it's that you are oversimplifying it. There is more to it than the premise you stated, as confirmed in the "plot" summary.

The squadmates aren't tertiary, they are primary.

Okay, then tell me what the plot is then, since I'm now more confused since my simplification was too much.

How are the squadmates primary?  Because TIM said so?  Why?

Let me ask you this. If you knew your survival odds were next to none would you walk into your enemies base with just 4 people or would you wanna have a whole team backing you up?

Let me ask you this yet again: what's the plot?

Well first I'd discern that the enemy actually had a base.  Then get intel on it, then potentially build a team that were specifically designed at...base penetration?  Blowing bases up?

In ME2, we don't even know the Collectors have a base.  We don't know where, what, why, how etc. they are, or what we're attacking.  There could literally be anything beyond the Omega-4 relay.  All we know is they have a Cruiser.  So why would we need 11 random people (save Mordin?) when it looks like we're going to have a ship battle?  Would soldiers, no matter how badass, be effective in a ship battle?

[smudboy]

Phaelducan wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

It's not that it's wrong, it's that you are oversimplifying it. There is more to it than the premise you stated, as confirmed in the "plot" summary.

The squadmates aren't tertiary, they are primary.

Okay, then tell me what the plot is then, since I'm now more confused since my simplification was too much.

How are the squadmates primary?  Because TIM said so?  Why?

Really? Because TIM said so? If you don't want to discuss the issue fine, but no need to get flippant.
They are primary because Bioware made them the principal focus of the game. Most of the NPC's talk to you about "not having the right people" or "needing the right specialists" or something to that effect. They say you need to have everyone recruited and focused on the mission... not for fluff... but because that is the point of the game. If you want to succeed (and I define success by surviving and having a Shep to import to ME3), you will need to recruit/do loyalty missions.

I don't know why this is a point of contention... seriously look up some of the interviews and/or promos from Bioware staff about the game.

Again I ask: what is the plot?  I'd love to discuss the issue.  I've yet to hear a concise answer.

Primary to what?  To the plot?  How so?  Just because "TIM said so" doesn't make anyone primary.  How does Thane become primary?  Because he's on a dossier?  I don't see how these characters you pick up are primary to anything, aside for the use as a plot device so TIM can tell you what to do next.  Hence, "TIM said so."

Why do you need to have these people?  Why do you need to have trained killers who've survived just fine in various dangerous situations to be focused?  Would a trained assassin and collection of other badasses really have "staying alive" issues?  How are these people not fluff?  What exactly do we need to succeed at?

[Sleepicub09]

smudboy wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

It's not that it's wrong, it's that you are oversimplifying it. There is more to it than the premise you stated, as confirmed in the "plot" summary.

The squadmates aren't tertiary, they are primary.

Okay, then tell me what the plot is then, since I'm now more confused since my simplification was too much.

How are the squadmates primary?  Because TIM said so?  Why?

Really? Because TIM said so? If you don't want to discuss the issue fine, but no need to get flippant.
They are primary because Bioware made them the principal focus of the game. Most of the NPC's talk to you about "not having the right people" or "needing the right specialists" or something to that effect. They say you need to have everyone recruited and focused on the mission... not for fluff... but because that is the point of the game. If you want to succeed (and I define success by surviving and having a Shep to import to ME3), you will need to recruit/do loyalty missions.

I don't know why this is a point of contention... seriously look up some of the interviews and/or promos from Bioware staff about the game.

Again I ask: what is the plot?  I'd love to discuss the issue.  I've yet to hear a concise answer.

Primary to what?  To the plot?  How so?  Just because "TIM said so" doesn't make anyone primary.  How does Thane become primary?  Because he's on a dossier?  I don't see how these characters you pick up are primary to anything, aside for the use as a plot device so TIM can tell you what to do next.  Hence, "TIM said so."

Why do you need to have these people?  Why do you need to have trained killers who've survived just fine in various dangerous situations to be focused?  Would a trained assassin and collection of other badasses really have "staying alive" issues?  How are these people not fluff?  What exactly do we need to succeed at?

he's a recommendation you don't have to have him.

[Phaelducan]

You answer your own question. All of those questions, all of that development... that = the ME2 plot. You don't have to think it's the BESTEST PLOT EVAR, but it IS the plot.



If you still don't know what the plot is, go read the plot summary.



Beyond that, if you constantly ask "why, why why?" regarding plot, you will never get an answer you like. It's a story written by someone other than you, with motivations that aren't yours.



Why did we need to stop Saren? Well he's bad... but why? Well he attacked a colony... but what is that bad? Well attacking colonies is bad.... but why?



Like it or not, Bioware wrote a story that was very simple. The plot goes from "I'm dead... that sucks..." to "I'm alive... and this creepy douche with a cigarette wants me to solve this mystery."



You obviously don't like it, and that's fine, but asking questions about it like a three year old (why, why, why) doesn't change anything.



Peace, I'm out.