112 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Sleepicub09 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

It's not that it's wrong, it's that you are oversimplifying it. There is more to it than the premise you stated, as confirmed in the "plot" summary.

The squadmates aren't tertiary, they are primary.

Okay, then tell me what the plot is then, since I'm now more confused since my simplification was too much.

How are the squadmates primary?  Because TIM said so?  Why?

Really? Because TIM said so? If you don't want to discuss the issue fine, but no need to get flippant.
They are primary because Bioware made them the principal focus of the game. Most of the NPC's talk to you about "not having the right people" or "needing the right specialists" or something to that effect. They say you need to have everyone recruited and focused on the mission... not for fluff... but because that is the point of the game. If you want to succeed (and I define success by surviving and having a Shep to import to ME3), you will need to recruit/do loyalty missions.

I don't know why this is a point of contention... seriously look up some of the interviews and/or promos from Bioware staff about the game.

Again I ask: what is the plot?  I'd love to discuss the issue.  I've yet to hear a concise answer.

Primary to what?  To the plot?  How so?  Just because "TIM said so" doesn't make anyone primary.  How does Thane become primary?  Because he's on a dossier?  I don't see how these characters you pick up are primary to anything, aside for the use as a plot device so TIM can tell you what to do next.  Hence, "TIM said so."

Why do you need to have these people?  Why do you need to have trained killers who've survived just fine in various dangerous situations to be focused?  Would a trained assassin and collection of other badasses really have "staying alive" issues?  How are these people not fluff?  What exactly do we need to succeed at?

he's a recommendation you don't have to have him.

So the plot, which is about other characters, Thane being one of them, are all recommendations, that aren't necessary?

[Sleepicub09]

smudboy wrote...

Sleepicub09 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

It's not that it's wrong, it's that you are oversimplifying it. There is more to it than the premise you stated, as confirmed in the "plot" summary.

The squadmates aren't tertiary, they are primary.

Okay, then tell me what the plot is then, since I'm now more confused since my simplification was too much.

How are the squadmates primary?  Because TIM said so?  Why?

Let me ask you this. If you knew your survival odds were next to none would you walk into your enemies base with just 4 people or would you wanna have a whole team backing you up?

Let me ask you this yet again: what's the plot?

Well first I'd discern that the enemy actually had a base.  Then get intel on it, then potentially build a team that were specifically designed at...base penetration?  Blowing bases up?

In ME2, we don't even know the Collectors have a base.  We don't know where, what, why, how etc. they are, or what we're attacking.  There could literally be anything beyond the Omega-4 relay.  All we know is they have a Cruiser.  So why would we need 11 random people (save Mordin?) when it looks like we're going to have a ship battle?  Would soldiers, no matter how badass, be effective in a ship battle?

there wasn't going to be a big ship battle because the IFF makes you look like a friendly. It was discovered that had to be a small base considering the fact that it was in the galactic core a planet wouldn't have survived. As for the main plot of ME2 was to find out why the collectors was abducting human colonies, you find out that their just pawns,later on you find out that the omega 4 relay is in the galactic core, so your recruiting while all this is going on because you wanna be sure that you have what you need, at the end of the game you find out the reapers intentions and then  you are introduced to harbinger the real enemy.

[smudboy]

Phaelducan wrote...

You answer your own question. All of those questions, all of that development... that = the ME2 plot. You don't have to think it's the BESTEST PLOT EVAR, but it IS the plot.

So all my questions are the plot?

If you still don't know what the plot is, go read the plot summary.

Well I thought I did, till you told me that what I mentioned was the premise.  Why can't you just tell me what the plot is?

Beyond that, if you constantly ask "why, why why?" regarding plot, you will never get an answer you like. It's a story written by someone other than you, with motivations that aren't yours.

Shouldn't the writer tell me what his motivations are through his characters?

Why did we need to stop Saren? Well he's bad... but why? Well he attacked a colony... but what is that bad? Well attacking colonies is bad.... but why?

I'm not asking why Saren is bad, nor why Collectors are bad.  I'm asking why we need these characters.   These are valid questions which you've yet to answer.

Like it or not, Bioware wrote a story that was very simple. The plot goes from "I'm dead... that sucks..." to "I'm alive... and this creepy douche with a cigarette wants me to solve this mystery."

So the plot is "I'm dead, I'm back"?  I thought the plot was about the characters?

You obviously don't like it, and that's fine, but asking questions about it like a three year old (why, why, why) doesn't change anything.

Peace, I'm out.

I don't like it because I don't understand it.  You seem to.  Please tell me what the plot is.

Thanks.

[Sleepicub09]

smudboy wrote...

Sleepicub09 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

It's not that it's wrong, it's that you are oversimplifying it. There is more to it than the premise you stated, as confirmed in the "plot" summary.

The squadmates aren't tertiary, they are primary.

Okay, then tell me what the plot is then, since I'm now more confused since my simplification was too much.

How are the squadmates primary?  Because TIM said so?  Why?

Really? Because TIM said so? If you don't want to discuss the issue fine, but no need to get flippant.
They are primary because Bioware made them the principal focus of the game. Most of the NPC's talk to you about "not having the right people" or "needing the right specialists" or something to that effect. They say you need to have everyone recruited and focused on the mission... not for fluff... but because that is the point of the game. If you want to succeed (and I define success by surviving and having a Shep to import to ME3), you will need to recruit/do loyalty missions.

I don't know why this is a point of contention... seriously look up some of the interviews and/or promos from Bioware staff about the game.

Again I ask: what is the plot?  I'd love to discuss the issue.  I've yet to hear a concise answer.

Primary to what?  To the plot?  How so?  Just because "TIM said so" doesn't make anyone primary.  How does Thane become primary?  Because he's on a dossier?  I don't see how these characters you pick up are primary to anything, aside for the use as a plot device so TIM can tell you what to do next.  Hence, "TIM said so."

Why do you need to have these people?  Why do you need to have trained killers who've survived just fine in various dangerous situations to be focused?  Would a trained assassin and collection of other badasses really have "staying alive" issues?  How are these people not fluff?  What exactly do we need to succeed at?

he's a recommendation you don't have to have him.

So the plot, which is about other characters, Thane being one of them, are all recommendations, that aren't necessary?

*facepalm* dude it's rpg you have choices. Thane is highly skilled assassin highly valuable for taking out collectors. but now your just looking to nitpick. I'm out going to go play FO3

[Throw_this_away]

Smudboy: "a plot is all the events in a story particularly rendered toward the achievement of some particular artistic or emotional effect or general theme."



Plot/story/content of ME2 - whatever the frig you choose it to be!



Defeating the collectors/reapers is one part you can't avoid, and gathering a squad (+/- loyalty missions) is a central part of that story that you can complete to various levels. Same goes for upgrading the ship/side missions/whatever. Whatever you do, or however you do it... adds to the overall "plot" by definition.



Don't like the "plot"... make different choices, or go play a different game.

[smudboy]

Sleepicub09 wrote...
there wasn't going to be a big ship battle because the IFF makes you look like a friendly. It was discovered that had to be a small base considering the fact that it was in the galactic core a planet wouldn't have survived. As for the main plot of ME2 was to find out why the collectors was abducting human colonies, you find out that their just pawns,later on you find out that the omega 4 relay is in the galactic core, so your recruiting while all this is going on because you wanna be sure that you have what you need, at the end of the game you find out the reapers intentions and then  you are introduced to harbinger the real enemy.

Interesting.

Wait, why wasn't there going to be a big ship battle?  I thought the IFF just allows a ship to pass through the relay.  It would be hilarious if simply having the IFF, the Collectors wouldn't attack the Normandy anymore.

How was a "small base" discovered?  I seemed to have missed that.  Didn't they just deduce that?

Okay, so the main plot of ME2 is: to find out why the Collectors were abducting human colonies?  (I thought we wanted to stop them, or else more colonies would be lost.)  But we find out they're just pawns.  And that the Omega-4 relay points to somewhere in the galactic core.  As such, we're recruiting people while this is going on because we want to be prepared.  So that we have what we need.  So at the end of the game, when we find out the Reapers intentions, we're introduced to Harbinger.

Whew.  Okay.  A few questions: are we expecting a "land war in Asia"?  Cause that would make sense if we need soldiers and mercenaries.  I see nothing wrong with "being prepared for anything", but why assume a land war in Asia?  If we can't land a ship (which it seems the SR2 can't enter planet atmosphere/retcon Hammerhead), I'm guessing we'll be shuttling our crew to something past the Omega-4 relay?  Luckily we do get a ship battle, which makes sense.  And as we do know, pre-Joker's mission, we can fit lots of people into a shuttle in very convenient situations.

But how are we introduced to Harbinger?  I only see this in game play, so I'm curious how Shepard figures out Harbinger's a Reaper.  But we're introduced to him, our main bad guy, at the end of the game?  How does Shepard figure this out?

[X-Frame]

Jacob I rarely use when I can use Grunt instead, but Miranda I use a lot because she is sort of a jack-of-all-trades with Warp AND Overload as well as the pretty effective Slam but especially her great squad bonus powers.



She is definitely a top character.

[smudboy]

Throw_this_away wrote...

Smudboy: "a plot is all the events in a story particularly rendered toward the achievement of some particular artistic or emotional effect or general theme."

Plot/story/content of ME2 - whatever the frig you choose it to be!

Defeating the collectors/reapers is one part you can't avoid, and gathering a squad (+/- loyalty missions) is a central part of that story that you can complete to various levels. Same goes for upgrading the ship/side missions/whatever. Whatever you do, or however you do it... adds to the overall "plot" by definition.

Don't like the "plot"... make different choices, or go play a different game.

So ME2's plot is merely, reading the story? :|

I don't believe the plot/story/content of ME2 is whatever I choose it to be.  Else it'd be my story.  We can only experience the story the writer/creators intended, and no speech by Casey Hudson will change that.  For instance, it involves many side characters, side stories, and a quest to stop a mysterious enemy.  There is no "whatever the frig I choose" here.  I must collect characters in order for TIM to advance the plot.

My issue is the understanding of this plot.  Why we have these characters, what our goal is, and how we go about doing so.  This is why I feel the plot fails.  We need to know our enemy.  In doing so, we would have reasons (or any reason) to get said people.

-Being prepared for the unknown, is good.  
-Prepared for what, I ask?
-Anything.
-So a land war in Asia?
-Anything, smudboy.

Mordin was introduced.  He had a purpose.  It was a flimsy purpose, and his countermeasure was merely a plot device, but at least the story told me why.  He also had some smattering of motivation to join, since it was related to his recruitment (plague on Omega/deal to help, wants to study the Collectors.)  But no one else is given this introduction or treatment.

Additionally, no one else grows with the main plot.  Mordin's countermeasure is rendered ineffective when it's needed most.  Wouldn't it have been great to upgrade that?  Everyone else is expendible/redundant/or completely useless.  They're just there because TIM said so, and after getting them, he'll advanced the plot.

ME2 is a shoddy story with 10 or so other side-stories tacked on, which have nothing to do with each other save association.  (I'll grant Legion, since it's on a main plot point, even if you sell it to "further the cause.")  The characters have no motivation to join Shepard aside from because he asked.

[glacier1701]

Phaelducan wrote...

You answer your own question. All of those questions, all of that development... that = the ME2 plot. You don't have to think it's the BESTEST PLOT EVAR, but it IS the plot.

If you still don't know what the plot is, go read the plot summary.

Beyond that, if you constantly ask "why, why why?" regarding plot, you will never get an answer you like. It's a story written by someone other than you, with motivations that aren't yours.

Why did we need to stop Saren? Well he's bad... but why? Well he attacked a colony... but what is that bad? Well attacking colonies is bad.... but why?

Like it or not, Bioware wrote a story that was very simple. The plot goes from "I'm dead... that sucks..." to "I'm alive... and this creepy douche with a cigarette wants me to solve this mystery."

You obviously don't like it, and that's fine, but asking questions about it like a three year old (why, why, why) doesn't change anything.

Peace, I'm out.

The problem is that BioWare BUILT the plot backwards. They knew that there was a base and thus set up the 'plot' for recruiting based on that. However when we, as Shepard start out all we know is that The Collectors are BEYOND the Omega-4 relay and we need to stop them. So if that is ALL we know what would we do? Well it certainly would NOT be gather all these people who know next to nothing about shipboard sensors, electronic warfare and such like because obviously what is on the other side is the homeworld or worlds of the Collectors so we need to get some intel on that. Of course that is NOT what happens BioWare forced us onto this one path knowing the ending even though it makes no sense giving the facts we have at the beginning.

As to all the people I do not use - well for the most part since they are of no use in spaceship-to-spacehsip combat I am with Smud on this - axe them.

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...

I don't believe the plot/story/content of ME2 is whatever I choose it to be.  Else it'd be my story. 

The fact that you get to make it YOUR STORY was the whole point of the Mass Effect Series (*palm to face,*shakes head*,*rolls eyes*, etc).  Bioware has sold gamers on this from the start.  RPG... you get to play a role and things unfold based on your choices. 

As you point out, this is a game however, so there are limitations (I look it as a "choose your own adventure" novel, on sterroids,  in game form).  

 

[padaE]

That's kind of true. There are some character that I almost never use.
.
But Miranda is the best teammate hands down, if you don't agree with this, it's just because you haven't played the game enough.
.
Jacob is pretty useful too. I mostly use him and Miri until I have a ammo type of my own to provide to the team.

Modifié par padaE, 04 avril 2010 - 02:07 .

[smudboy]

Throw_this_away wrote...

smudboy wrote...

I don't believe the plot/story/content of ME2 is whatever I choose it to be.  Else it'd be my story. 

The fact that you get to make it YOUR STORY was the whole point of the Mass Effect Series (*palm to face,*shakes head*,*rolls eyes*, etc).  Bioware has sold gamers on this from the start.  RPG... you get to play a role and things unfold based on your choices. 

As you point out, this is a game however, so there are limitations (I look it as a "choose your own adventure" novel, on sterroids,  in game form). 

Haha, then their sales pitch is off.  Even an interactive "write a story" game is still going to be limited by technology and the pre-planned assets the product has.

It is very much a choose your own adventure novel.  With pretty, talking heads.

[marshalleck]

Throw_this_away wrote...

smudboy wrote...

I don't believe the plot/story/content of ME2 is whatever I choose it to be.  Else it'd be my story. 

The fact that you get to make it YOUR STORY was the whole point of the Mass Effect Series (*palm to face,*shakes head*,*rolls eyes*, etc).  Bioware has sold gamers on this from the start.  RPG... you get to play a role and things unfold based on your choices. 

As you point out, this is a game however, so there are limitations (I look it as a "choose your own adventure" novel, on sterroids,  in game form).  

Bioware don't do sandbox games. never have, never will. They give the player a limited amount of control over how the story plays out, but it's never entirely your own unique concept.

[Nu-Nu]

Legion, he comes in too late to get attached to and use. Mordin is really the only other one that I rarely use, I like him but he dies too much when I use him. I used the rest all equally over a few playthroughs.

[Throw_this_away]

glacier1701 wrote...

So if that is ALL we know what would we do? Well it certainly would NOT be gather all these people who know next to nothing about shipboard sensors, electronic warfare and such like because obviously what is on the other side is the homeworld or worlds of the Collectors so we need to get some intel on that. 

Garrus gave us tech for better weapons... Jacob for armour, I forget who allowed us to develop better shields. 

How do we stop the collectors? One temptation was to send a mother-nuke into the omega relay... or nuke the relay itself.  But I figured we need their tech/lear why they were abducting people, and we need to be sure we finished the collectors/reapers off.  Using an army was not enough because no one would give it to us (the council). 

I look at Shep and his/her squad as a special forces group... strength in skill, not numbers.  If we were to fight with armies, this would be a RTS like starcraft.  TIM gave us the dossiers because he identified these individuals as "the best."  He gave us the right to decide who we chose to use or not.  Loyalty missions were optional... personal requests by each squaddie (they just had a benefit in the end mission if you did them).    

glacier1701 wrote...

As to all the people I do not use - well for the most part since they are of no use in spaceship-to-spacehsip combat I am with Smud on this - axe them.

See my above mention on squaddies that help upgrade the ship.  The extra squadmates are not essential, but any look into the various outcomes of the final battle tell us that having them all is better... and having them loyal is better still.  The beauty of the game is that if you wish to "axe them" you can, either by not using them in most missions, or as I did with Tali... killing them off in the final battle.  

[Throw_this_away]

smudboy wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

smudboy wrote...

I don't believe the plot/story/content of ME2 is whatever I choose it to be.  Else it'd be my story. 

this is a game however, so there are limitations (I look it as a "choose your own adventure" novel, on sterroids,  in game form). 

 Even an interactive "write a story" game is still going to be limited by technology and the pre-planned assets the product has.

It is very much a choose your own adventure novel. 

Exactly!!!  Anyone who wants/demands/expects more should turn off their Xbox... walk outside... and start their own personal verson of GTA by punching someone in the face and stealing their car.  THAT... would be truly YOUR STORY!!!

[marshalleck]

Throw_this_away wrote...

Exactly!!!  Anyone who wants/demands/expects more should turn off their Xbox... walk outside... and start their own personal verson of GTA by punching someone in the face and stealing their car.  THAT... would be truly YOUR STORY!!!

Or go pick up Morrowind (similar but superior to the more recent Oblivion)

[cronshaw8]

the only characters I wish were skilled up differently were Legion and Tali. Not that using them together couldn't be fun. I just wish their skills weren't nearly identical. Perhaps overload for Legion instead of drone. Also maybe give Thane more of a Sentinelly feel. With a tech power and a biotic power. It fits his character description as a jack of all trades more. But i was able to find uses and missions for all the characters. If they were all good on every mission the game would be less fun.

[Throw_this_away]

marshalleck wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

Exactly!!!  Anyone who wants/demands/expects more should turn off their Xbox... walk outside... and start their own personal verson of GTA by punching someone in the face and stealing their car.  THAT... would be truly YOUR STORY!!!

Or go pick up Morrowind (similar but superior to the more recent Oblivion)

Hey, MY STORY is chosing to reply on this forum to your comment.

Now the question becomes... "Is this life truly MY STORY... or is it limited by a higher being (god)":huh:  

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 04 avril 2010 - 02:23 .

[Hulluliini]

For me, the biotics and tech people are the least used.



Tali and Legion: the drone and AI hack just seem useless, sorry.



Samara and Jack: their powers don't work until armor and shields are down.



Mordin: I hardly ever use cryo freeze and he dies easily.



SO:



Garrus, Miranda, Thane, Grunt , Zaeed and Jacob tend to rotate on my squad, depending on the enemies I'm going up against. Especially since Garrus, Grunt, Jacob and Zaeed have a constant talent in use, i.e. special ammo!

[Throw_this_away]

marshalleck wrote...

Throw_this_away wrote...

As you point out, this is a game however, so there are limitations (I look it as a "choose your own adventure" novel, on sterroids,  in game form).  

Bioware don't do sandbox games. never have, never will. They give the player a limited amount of control over how the story plays out, but it's never entirely your own unique concept.

I think we are on the same page.  Even "sandbox games" will always have limitations, even if they do provide more freedom than a game like ME1/2.  

[Phaelducan]

glacier1701 wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

You answer your own question. All of those questions, all of that development... that = the ME2 plot. You don't have to think it's the BESTEST PLOT EVAR, but it IS the plot.

If you still don't know what the plot is, go read the plot summary.

Beyond that, if you constantly ask "why, why why?" regarding plot, you will never get an answer you like. It's a story written by someone other than you, with motivations that aren't yours.

Why did we need to stop Saren? Well he's bad... but why? Well he attacked a colony... but what is that bad? Well attacking colonies is bad.... but why?

Like it or not, Bioware wrote a story that was very simple. The plot goes from "I'm dead... that sucks..." to "I'm alive... and this creepy douche with a cigarette wants me to solve this mystery."

You obviously don't like it, and that's fine, but asking questions about it like a three year old (why, why, why) doesn't change anything.

Peace, I'm out.

The problem is that BioWare BUILT the plot backwards. They knew that there was a base and thus set up the 'plot' for recruiting based on that. However when we, as Shepard start out all we know is that The Collectors are BEYOND the Omega-4 relay and we need to stop them. So if that is ALL we know what would we do? Well it certainly would NOT be gather all these people who know next to nothing about shipboard sensors, electronic warfare and such like because obviously what is on the other side is the homeworld or worlds of the Collectors so we need to get some intel on that. Of course that is NOT what happens BioWare forced us onto this one path knowing the ending even though it makes no sense giving the facts we have at the beginning.

As to all the people I do not use - well for the most part since they are of no use in spaceship-to-spacehsip combat I am with Smud on this - axe them.

Your argument isn't logical. You say that no one knew what was beyond the relay... so recruiting is a plot hole?
The Collectors HAVE to have a base/homeworld by logical deduction or they wouldn't have been able to build a ship in the first place.

Beyond that, the already have the Normandy with EDI, which is the ship part of the equation... now you need people who can board/land wherever it is the Collectors come from and take them out. That requires (in the ME universe) the best guns/omni-tools/biotic-amps for hire.

The plot isn't backwards, it's just very simple. Simple doesn't mean bad, either. Avatar had a very simple plot, and made billions of dollars. 

Could they have made a Cerebral mind-frag like The Game or The Usual Suspects? Sure, they just didn't. In this case, the plot involves finding intel on an enemy, then finding the best and brightest people around to go take care of the enemy, and in the process making sure said squad is grounded and focuses to maximize the chances of success and survival.

Not to be argumentative.... but Smud is really just Trolling at this point.

[Mr_Steph]

I rarely use Jakob, but I use Miranda a lot, especially if I'm a soldier. Her combo of warp + overload is nice and she boosts the squads stats too and I like her slam ability.

[Throw_this_away]

scyphozoa wrote...

Yeah I don't think this is an issue that needs "fixed"

Essentially some people love your most unused characters. In order for them to be "fixed' they would have to be made so that you like them too. THis might make the people who love them in their current form dislike them, then they would need to be "fixed" again.

The idea is that a variety of personaltiies types will appeal to different gamers, so IMO, the current implementation is successful.

100% agreed.  Except that all your favorite character are belong to us. 

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 04 avril 2010 - 02:58 .