170 réponses à ce sujet

[chaos_Shadow15]

DPSSOC wrote...

Yeah the Council decision kinda sucks. I understand aliens being pissy with you, that makes sense, I even understand a new mixed race Council (if you went that route) wouldn't be willing to speak with you. An all human Council though? Humanity is top dog now because of me, those pricks have a job because of me, and they won't even give me a chance to explain what the hell is going on. Now I understand it from the devs point of view (3 new councillors means 3 new models and VAs) but from a story point of view I don't get it.

This is another thing that gets to me. I'm pretty sure that my Council is all human, but how do you deicde that? My Shepherd was Paragon and was never xenophobic. I had hoped that the new council would be a mix, but from what I sourced in ME2, it was all human, though I could be wrong. What factors determine wether the council is all human or not?

[GreedIsNoException]

Shandepared wrote...

GreedIsNoException wrote...

I didn't mean battle, I meant like pulling things together politically and stuff.

None of those politics matter if Sovereign wins.

Yet Sovereign loses either ways. So which is better, having the ability to regroup or a last stand?

[DPSSOC]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Kokkostan wrote...

Yes, and if I remember correctly Asension just took the Council to the safety and didn't join to the battle.

Proof?

Even if that were so there was no way for Shep to know they would run.

It's actually a fairly logical conclusion.  If the DA is calling for help the battle has clearly gone terribly wrong; their screen is down, their barriers are down, the Geth have closed in to render the DA's main gun useless, and for whatever reason they're cut off from the rest of the fleet.

So, logically (at least to me) if they are in danger of being destroyed they aren't going to stick around to pound on Sovereign, they're going to take the DA as far as possible from the battle, most likely with an escort, and at most take pop shots at the Geth.

Now it's possible they would stick around but my thinking is that if they're calling for help and about to be destroyed they're out of the fight (for the time being at least once they can get their barriers back up they may rejoin but my guess is that takes considerably more time than we have).

[Saberwolf116]

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

Seems sensible to me. If you destroyed all of Washington DC it would have a bigger impact on the country than if you destroyed all of Los Angeles. Both are horrible options that would have devastating affects but one would also leave the government in shambles. The Council is the center of government for the galaxy. By taking them out you are essentially instating a military coup. People don't like that.

So they can't elect new Council members...?

[DPSSOC]

chaos_Shadow15 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Yeah the Council decision kinda sucks. I understand aliens being pissy with you, that makes sense, I even understand a new mixed race Council (if you went that route) wouldn't be willing to speak with you. An all human Council though? Humanity is top dog now because of me, those pricks have a job because of me, and they won't even give me a chance to explain what the hell is going on. Now I understand it from the devs point of view (3 new councillors means 3 new models and VAs) but from a story point of view I don't get it.

This is another thing that gets to me. I'm pretty sure that my Council is all human, but how do you deicde that? My Shepherd was Paragon and was never xenophobic. I had hoped that the new council would be a mix, but from what I sourced in ME2, it was all human, though I could be wrong. What factors determine wether the council is all human or not?

Well it's at the very end of ME1 so its possible that it doesn't take account of the "decision".  If you sacrifice the Council (choosing either Focus on Sovereign or Let 'em Burn) and at the end of the game your Paragon is higher than your Renegade when Udina comes in spouting his, "We can take over" rhetoric you can choose the top right option and advocate a mixed race Council.  If your Renegade is higher than your Paragon you can still advocate the mixed race Council but Udina dismisses it saying "noble words Shepard but your actions speak for themselves"

[chaos_Shadow15]

DPSSOC wrote...

chaos_Shadow15 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Yeah the Council decision kinda sucks. I understand aliens being pissy with you, that makes sense, I even understand a new mixed race Council (if you went that route) wouldn't be willing to speak with you. An all human Council though? Humanity is top dog now because of me, those pricks have a job because of me, and they won't even give me a chance to explain what the hell is going on. Now I understand it from the devs point of view (3 new councillors means 3 new models and VAs) but from a story point of view I don't get it.

This is another thing that gets to me. I'm pretty sure that my Council is all human, but how do you deicde that? My Shepherd was Paragon and was never xenophobic. I had hoped that the new council would be a mix, but from what I sourced in ME2, it was all human, though I could be wrong. What factors determine wether the council is all human or not?

Well it's at the very end of ME1 so its possible that it doesn't take account of the "decision".  If you sacrifice the Council (choosing either Focus on Sovereign or Let 'em Burn) and at the end of the game your Paragon is higher than your Renegade when Udina comes in spouting his, "We can take over" rhetoric you can choose the top right option and advocate a mixed race Council.  If your Renegade is higher than your Paragon you can still advocate the mixed race Council but Udina dismisses it saying "noble words Shepard but your actions speak for themselves"

Huh.. weird. I remember choosing the mixed race options and I was full paragon. So perhaps the game doesn't take that into account? Is there really a way to get a mixed race council? Or do we not know for certain what the make up of races the council is in ME2? 

[Saint Op]

I thought at the moment the way it seemed that there was the possibility of losing the Normandy and crew if they were sent after the counsil. So I let them die as my crew is saving the galaxy and the counsils a pain in my ass.



But the way it played out and what happened in ME2 made me think alot more about some choices in ME2.

[marshalleck]

GreedIsNoException wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

GreedIsNoException wrote...

I didn't mean battle, I meant like pulling things together politically and stuff.

None of those politics matter if Sovereign wins.

Yet Sovereign loses either ways. So which is better, having the ability to regroup or a last stand?

Weak meta-game argument.

[DPSSOC]

chaos_Shadow15 wrote...

Huh.. weird. I remember choosing the mixed race options and I was full paragon. So perhaps the game doesn't take that into account? Is there really a way to get a mixed race council? Or do we not know for certain what the make up of races the council is in ME2? 

Thinking back I don't think they ever say outright, maybe that blurb at the beginning after Normandy's Woe, but I'd have to finish my pure Paragon playthrough in ME1 to be absolutely certain as I can't remember with any of my other playthroughs how I handled that particular situation.

[Nu-Nu]

You end up saving more lives then the humans lost to save them, about 10,000 beings were on the council ship. All the other aliens sacrificed their own ships as well so it looked bad if the humans didn't value all the lives equally.

[Saint Op]

Nu-Nu wrote...

You end up saving more lives then the humans lost to save them, about 10,000 beings were on the council ship. All the other aliens sacrificed their own ships as well so it looked bad if the humans didn't value all the lives equally.

Yeah the reaction is understandable but we have no way of knowing this would happen until after the fact.  Plus it wasn't even a given you would stop the reaper at all, I was thinking we kill Saren and escapse as the Citadel it taken over setting up ME2.  But I don't read spoilers or metagame either before I finish the game once.

[DPSSOC]

But we do value all lives equally we killed the thing trying to kill everybody.



I do recognize it looks bad that we weren't willing to sacrifice our own people to save the Council, but PR isn't Shepard's job.

[AntiChri5]

Saint Op wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

You end up saving more lives then the humans lost to save them, about 10,000 beings were on the council ship. All the other aliens sacrificed their own ships as well so it looked bad if the humans didn't value all the lives equally.

Yeah the reaction is understandable but we have no way of knowing this would happen until after the fact.  Plus it wasn't even a given you would stop the reaper at all, I was thinking we kill Saren and escapse as the Citadel it taken over setting up ME2.  But I don't read spoilers or metagame either before I finish the game once.

What good would that do?

If you kill Saren but they still have the citadel they can still open up the way for the Reapers.

[Nu-Nu]

As a paragon spectre, you were tasked as being the protector of the council, it's last line of defense. Joker also wanted to go in and help them, that's one of the reason why I helped them, I trust joker's to have the right intentions.

I think it's also about learning to trust your own team to save the council and defeat the reapper.

Modifié par Nu-Nu, 04 avril 2010 - 02:18 .

[marshalleck]

Nu-Nu wrote...

As a paragon spectre, you were tasked as being the protector of the council, it's last line of defense. 

Protector of the galaxy, not the Council. Shepard's task is to do what the Council can't to safeguard the galaxy's trillions of lives.

Trillions of people across hundreds of worlds > the 10,000 people aboard the Destiny Ascension. Sorry Council, you're taking one for the team.

[Nu-Nu]

marshalleck wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

As a paragon spectre, you were tasked as being the protector of the council, it's last line of defense. 

Protector of the galaxy, not the Council. Shepard's task is to do what the Council can't to safeguard the galaxy's trillions of lives.

Trillions of people across hundreds of worlds > the 10,000 people aboard the Destiny Ascension. Sorry Council, you're taking one for the team.

In their big speech, they did say you were their protectors as well as protectors of the galaxy.  At that point of time, it was the alliance ships or the council that were on the line.  Council would have been your best hope to have a united race against reaper or it could end up with humans standing alone.

[Kokkostan]

GreedIsNoException wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

GreedIsNoException wrote...

I didn't mean battle, I meant like pulling things together politically and stuff.

None of those politics matter if Sovereign wins.

Yet Sovereign loses either ways. So which is better, having the ability to regroup or a last stand?

Btw, that was the one reason why I sacrificed the Council at the first playtrough. There wasn't no proof that your fleet will be enough or in time to destroy the Sovereign if you save the council first. 

[marshalleck]

Nu-Nu wrote...


In their big speech, they did say you were their protectors as well as protectors of the galaxy.  At that point of time, it was the alliance ships or the council that were on the line.  Council would have been your best hope to have a united race against reaper or it could end up with humans standing alone.

Saving them wouldn't matter if a Reaper fleet came pouring through the Citadel relay five minutes later.

In my view the decision is purely utilitarian. Letting Sovereign survive long enough to open the relay poses an existential risk to all life in the galaxy. The death of the Council does not. Therefore all available firepower is brought to bear on the Reaper fiddling with the relay controls instead of diverting to a ship that's only going to disengage from the battle regardless.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 avril 2010 - 02:35 .

[Nu-Nu]

Yeah, well this is where you have to trust your troops to be able to do what they're trained to do.

[ATKT]

It's the paradox of power, something powerful nations/empires/whatever must deal with as they expand. They inevitably draw criticism simply for having power, and people will find whatever reasons to justify their hatred of power after the fact.

It's been neurologically proven that people will use emotions to get a gut feeling and THEN use reason to justify their feelings. Basically, reasoning can be used to prove anything. So in this case, the aliens are reacting to THEIR government that has been around for millenia being destroyed and humans, who have been around for less than a single human's lifespan, taking the helm. But they rationalize it as saying that humans are making a bloody coup, ignoring the fact that you had the best of intentions and was acting in the interest of all galactic life.

Also, you have to look it at from a non-meta-gaming point of view, as another thread began to say. People who saved the Council had no guarantee that doing so would still leave enough forces remaining to kill Sovereign--they were taking a huge gamble. Therefore it is highly irrational, IMHO, to do anything BUT tell the Alliance to focus on Sovereign.

Edit: And to answer the question, yes, I am annoyed by the way your decision was portrayed. Even choosing the neutral option made you a renegade. But since this is how they want to tell their story, I'm happy to oblige by it.
Edit 2: Space between paragraphs.

Modifié par ATKT, 04 avril 2010 - 02:48 .

[DPSSOC]

Nu-Nu wrote...

Yeah, well this is where you have to trust your troops to be able to do what they're trained to do.

The problem is they've never trained for this, hell nobody in the Alliance probably ever considered this possibility (unless they've hired Batman).  You have no idea what it will take to bring Sovereign down, you have no idea what his offensive capabilities are, you know next to nothing about Sovereign other than he's extremely confident in his chances for success.

What you're proposing is trusting Vikings to take on a tank at anything less than full strength and come out on top.

[marshalleck]

If my renegade Shepard is put into a similar situation in ME3 where an all-human Council is thrown into the blender in order to facilitate whatever it takes to permanently end the Reaper threat, he'll do it without reservation.

[Saint Op]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Saint Op wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

You end up saving more lives then the humans lost to save them, about 10,000 beings were on the council ship. All the other aliens sacrificed their own ships as well so it looked bad if the humans didn't value all the lives equally.

Yeah the reaction is understandable but we have no way of knowing this would happen until after the fact.  Plus it wasn't even a given you would stop the reaper at all, I was thinking we kill Saren and escapse as the Citadel it taken over setting up ME2.  But I don't read spoilers or metagame either before I finish the game once.

What good would that do?

If you kill Saren but they still have the citadel they can still open up the way for the Reapers.

Well again I figured there are 2 more games comming and at this point, well untill the end of ME2 we don't know how many there are or where the story was going.  So it may have been ME2 save the Cidadel from 2 or 3 more reapers and regain it but fail to stop the "boss" reaper from coming (A real "dark" middle chapter), then in ME3 defeat it with help from the entire galaxcy.

[Nu-Nu]

DPSSOC wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

Yeah, well this is where you have to trust your troops to be able to do what they're trained to do.

The problem is they've never trained for this, hell nobody in the Alliance probably ever considered this possibility (unless they've hired Batman).  You have no idea what it will take to bring Sovereign down, you have no idea what his offensive capabilities are, you know next to nothing about Sovereign other than he's extremely confident in his chances for success.

What you're proposing is trusting Vikings to take on a tank at anything less than full strength and come out on top.

Shepard wasn't trained for any of this either or to encounter enemies he/she did in previous missions and he/she still did a good job and become a hero.  You have to trust your troops can adapt.