170 réponses à ce sujet

[Saint Op]

The Sapien wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Saint Op wrote...

Yeah but without knowing the future what exactly was ALL. WE did not know how many there were.  If we can't stop 1 then 2 or 3 more and a boss would be more then enough.

Don't get me wrong so far I think there story is better but I played game 1 with no knowledge of the future as you seemed to do.

The decision to focus on Sovereign doesn't require meta-game knowledge or Shepard having a personal vision of the future. All it requires is a steadfast determination to not gamble with the survival of galactic civilization, and to reduce risk and uncertainty as much as possible. Hence, attempt to destroy Sovereign as soon as possible, and at all cost.

I hope you don't reduce all of your moral decisions to "success at any cost." Some of us believe that it is more important how you live your life rather than whether you continue. My Shep once told Saren that he'd rather die than be a slave.

I don't think there is a right answer. Us softies could lose the entire galaxy trying to always do the right thing. My Shep had to make a decision on the fly with limited knowledge (common in the real world, I hear) and was not about to taint humanity's most important role.

Yeah, in hindsight, saving the council wins the numbers game, saving more lives than lost, but we're cheating if we include this future knowledge in the decision.

Well not all my real life moral decisions can result in destruction of the entire galaxcy.

[2342]

I think that sometimes we forget that in ME1 the other citadel races weren't exactly fond of humanity. They thought we were bullies and that the council was giving us more then we should get. It doesn't matter if focusing on sovereign was the most tactical move for the situation, but the events after sovereign's destruction.



Which was a coup by a species that the rest of the citadel races viewed as a bully. No matter how you rationalize the situation it was a coup plain and simple, that's is why the "human led council" in ME2 gets such a negative reception by aliens.

[FlyingBrickyard]

Varyen wrote...

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing. Either way, humans are seen as the scum of the universe (next to the vorcha) by many regardless of what you do. The other races didn't like our fast track up the hiearchy (spell check?).

Agreed.  For now at least.  If you step back from it a bit, it'd be kind of like someone half your age coming in and seemingly getting a bunch of stuff just handed to them after you worked really hard most of your life to attain the same.  I imagine that wouldn't sit well with most people.  Respect is earned, and humans just haven't been around long enough yet to have earned very much of it. 

However, humanity is never going to earn any respect if you run around acting like a selfish, irresponsible child, so laying the groundwork for gaining that respect has to start somewhere.  Reapers aside, saving the Council takes a good step in that direction because it shows very clearly that like the other races, you're willing to put your own on the line for the greater good of the whole.  Even if it had failed and the DA was lost anyway, the attempt would have been significant, politically.

Not that I entertained politics when there was a Reaper at the door, but it was nice that the two coincided well on this one.
 

I did expect the human council to be a little more understanding but being told something along the lines of " you let the other council die & we're supposed to trust you?" kind of thing was complete BS imo.

I dunno, it makes sense to me.  Keep in mind, they're politicians - they lie and cheat and backstab each other as a matter of course for any political gain.  Their primary concern is self preservation and keeping their jobs.  If you tossed the Council once because you felt it was necessary in a crisis, I'd say it's pretty likely you'd do so again (and I think someone above even mentioned they'd do as much).  If anything, all you've done is proven beyond any doubt that you view the Council as an entity to be expendable.  They may not know that much about you as a person, but they definitely know that much.  And I'm pretty sure that's what they most care about. 

All of that aside, Shepard would be political poison for what is probably an already well disliked Council.  Getting all buddy-buddy with you upon your return would probably make an already difficult situation for them even worse.  Remember, their primary motivation is purely self-interest. 

I was annoyed by the fact that being a specter in ME1 meant NOTHING!. Poeple still regraded you as a lowly human & ignored the fact that you were a specter. And the 1st Human spector for that matter. I was also shocked that the salarian DR. ( can't think of his name right now) in ME2 said humans wen't specters while recruiting him.

It paid off for me a few times in ME2, although it wasn't in a huge way.  Helping out the Quarian and the two Asari on the Citadel come to mind.  But ME2 wasn't really about being a Spectre (ME1 wasn't either, but ME2 even less so).  I get the sense that in ME2 things have become much larger than the dealings of the Citadel, that the usual troubles and interests of even the Spectres pale in comparison to the level of "game" you're involved in now.  In short, Shepard and crew have moved well beyond the Spectre days, so it understanably carries even less weight and focus than before.

As for the rest, I chalked it all up to the general ignorance of the populace, the overall rarity of Spectres and the fact that most humans probably look mostly the same to every other species out there, just as we're hard pressed to identify specific Salarians, Asari, Elcor, Vlus, etc unless we deal with them on a regular basis.

For perspective, look at how unknown Asari Justicars were to non-Asari, and they've been around forever, comparatively.

Modifié par FlyingBrickyard, 04 avril 2010 - 04:05 .

[Hukari]

I think one thing a lot of people are forgetting is... there was -no way- for Sovereign to open the relay. None. Zip. Zilch. You'd just taken out Saren, and the only reason Sovereign bothered with a foot soldier was because the relay had to be activated manually. So any threat of a Reaper invasion basically died when Saren either got impaled or went blammo on his own head.

So then, the main problem is the Geth fleet, and one bigass dreadnaught. Saving the Destiny Ascension basically means destroying the Geth before moving on Sovereign, which is a sound tactical move. Sovereign wasn't attacking, and the Alliance was outside of his weaponry.  You don't want to leave your flank exposed for a massive fleet to come get you, while you're being pounded into the dirt by Sovereign's laz0rz pew pew. That's how I say it; it's smart both tactically, and morally.

Paragon is about getting the job done right, not quickly. They'll not sacrifice their honor or morality to get the job done expediently. But even so, saving the Council was the tactically right thing to do.

[FlyingBrickyard]

Hukari wrote...

Paragon is about getting the job done right, not quickly. They'll not sacrifice their honor or morality to get the job done expediently. But even so, saving the Council was the tactically right thing to do.

Yep.  Although I'll admit to not sticking to that fully myself.

I may be playing Shepard as a Paragon, but he's not a fool either.  If it's clear the situation can't be resolved peacefully because the other side is being unreasonable, I've no qualms jumping on that Renegade interrupt to keep them from getting the drop on me when the fighting starts.

I'm all for diplomacy, working things out and giving people chances to make the right choice, but I'm not stupid and if need be, I'll crush them.
 
(Besides, I doubt even the most Paragon of Paragons could resist headbutting Krogan-Worf just to shut him up. It was the perfect response).

[Saint Op]

Hukari wrote...

I think one thing a lot of people are forgetting is... there was -no way- for Sovereign to open the relay. None. Zip. Zilch. You'd just taken out Saren, and the only reason Sovereign bothered with a foot soldier was because the relay had to be activated manually. So any threat of a Reaper invasion basically died when Saren either got impaled or went blammo on his own head.

So then, the main problem is the Geth fleet, and one bigass dreadnaught. Saving the Destiny Ascension basically means destroying the Geth before moving on Sovereign, which is a sound tactical move. Sovereign wasn't attacking, and the Alliance was outside of his weaponry.  You don't want to leave your flank exposed for a massive fleet to come get you, while you're being pounded into the dirt by Sovereign's laz0rz pew pew. That's how I say it; it's smart both tactically, and morally.

Paragon is about getting the job done right, not quickly. They'll not sacrifice their honor or morality to get the job done expediently. But even so, saving the Council was the tactically right thing to do.

No, Soveriegn was attempting to open it himself when he was attaching himself to the Citadel.

[The Sapien]

Varyen wrote...

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing. Either way, humans are seen as the scum of the universe (next to the vorcha) by many regardless of what you do. The other races didn't like our fast track up the hiearchy (spell check?). I did expect the human council to be a little more understanding but being told something along the lines of " you let the other council die & we're supposed to trust you?" kind of thing was complete BS imo.

I was annoyed by the fact that being a specter in ME1 meant NOTHING!. Poeple still regraded you as a lowly human & ignored the fact that you were a specter. And the 1st Human spector for that matter. I was also shocked that the salarian DR. ( can't think of his name right now) in ME2 said humans wen't specters while recruiting him.

Too realistic, maybe? 

In ME1, I was actually more annoyed by my options for Shep when talking to the council than I ever was by the council itself. I totally get why the council is skeptical (Satan worshippers can be a problem without having to believe in Satan.) Shoot, even my Shep is still skeptical about these so called Reapers, and she even killed one. Was it really a Reaper? How the heck would she know? 

[marshalleck]

The Sapien wrote...

I hope you don't reduce all of your moral decisions to "success at any cost." Some of us believe that it is more important how you live your life rather than whether you continue.

Of course I don't. However, one thing I would consider utmost priority is the survival of all advanced life in the galaxy. That's a decision I, and my Shepards, would take very seriously. We're talking about extinction, or worse. In light of all that's at risk, I don't see how anyone can rationally jeaopardize every world ever colonized by their own people, every world colonized by other people, everything they've ever known, just for the sake of smoothing over politics by saving a single warship that's not even going to be of any benefit in the immediate conflict.

[Hukari]

Saint Op wrote...

Hukari wrote...

I think one thing a lot of people are forgetting is... there was -no way- for Sovereign to open the relay. None. Zip. Zilch. You'd just taken out Saren, and the only reason Sovereign bothered with a foot soldier was because the relay had to be activated manually. So any threat of a Reaper invasion basically died when Saren either got impaled or went blammo on his own head.

So then, the main problem is the Geth fleet, and one bigass dreadnaught. Saving the Destiny Ascension basically means destroying the Geth before moving on Sovereign, which is a sound tactical move. Sovereign wasn't attacking, and the Alliance was outside of his weaponry.  You don't want to leave your flank exposed for a massive fleet to come get you, while you're being pounded into the dirt by Sovereign's laz0rz pew pew. That's how I say it; it's smart both tactically, and morally.

Paragon is about getting the job done right, not quickly. They'll not sacrifice their honor or morality to get the job done expediently. But even so, saving the Council was the tactically right thing to do.

No, Soveriegn was attempting to open it himself when he was attaching himself to the Citadel.

Where does it say that? If he can open it from the outside, then why the hell does he send Saren to do it manually? From all the information that's available at the time, Sovereign was basically nothing to be worried about. No reaper army was going to invade, and all that was left was to kaboom the Geth fleet and Sov. And since Sov wasn't firing on the Alliance, the Geth fleet took precedence.

[DPSSOC]

Except that it was Sovereign who was opening the relay, that's why you needed that datafile from Vigil to stop him. Saren was their to override Citadel Control and keep the arms open til Sovereign got in and closed until he was finished. Sovereign is and was the threat if you fail to stop him you lose, it doesn't matter if you killed every Geth their, if Sovereign isn't stopped you lose.

Now whether you're willing to gamble on a weakened human fleet being able to destroy Sovereign is up to each to decide on their own, but Sovereign was still very much a threat after Saren.

Is clearing the Geth a sound tactical move, yes.

Is bypassing the Geth to hit Sovereign hard and fast in the hopes of overwhelming him a sound tactical move, yes.

Does the well being of the DA factor in, not for a minute.

So the decision comes down to do you think it's better to lose time and ships clearing the Geth (preventing them from attacking your rear), and risking not being able to stop him in time or attack Sovereign full strength (maximizing your chances of taking him down), and risking the Geth attacking from behind.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 04 avril 2010 - 04:20 .

[marshalleck]

Hukari wrote...

I think one thing a lot of people are forgetting is... there was -no way- for Sovereign to open the relay. None. Zip. Zilch. You'd just taken out Saren, and the only reason Sovereign bothered with a foot soldier was because the relay had to be activated manually. So any threat of a Reaper invasion basically died when Saren either got impaled or went blammo on his own head.

This is incorrect. Saren's job was to open the ward arms which gave Sovereign access to the Citadel's systems. Remember it doesn't matter if Shepard took control of the relay network, since the dark space relay system is isolated from the rest of the Citadel's controls, otherwise the trap would have been discovered long ago.

The Reaper invasion was imminent and it was a foregone conclusion if no action had been taken to prevent it.

[Hukari]

DPSSOC wrote...

Except that it was Sovereign who was opening the relay, that's why you needed that datafile from Vigil to stop him. Saren was their to override Citadel Control and keep the arms open til Sovereign got in and closed until he was finished. Sovereign is and was the threat if you fail to stop him you lose, it doesn't matter if you killed every Geth their, if Sovereign isn't stopped you lose.

Now whether you're willing to gamble on a weakened human fleet being able to destroy Sovereign is up to each to decide on their own, but Sovereign was still very much a threat after Saren.

Is clearing the Geth a sound tactical move, yes.

Is bypassing the Geth to hit Sovereign hard and fast in the hopes of overwhelming him a sound tactical move, yes.

Does the well being of the DA factor in, not for a minute.

So the decision comes down to do you think it's better to lose time and ships clearing the Geth (preventing them from attacking your rear), and risking not being able to stop him in time or attack Sovereign full strength (maximizing your chances of taking him down), and risking the Geth attacking from behind.

Well, remember: The file from Vigil cut Sovereign off completely from the Citadel, so again, he was rendered harmless in his summoning-the-Reapers plan. Sure, I bet if he re-directed every Geth in the Citadel to march on Shepard, he might've been able to try and retake it. But he didn't.

[marshalleck]

Hukari wrote...

Well, remember: The file from Vigil cut Sovereign off completely from the Citadel,

No it didn't. It lets Shepard override Saren's lockout.

Sovereign had direct physical access to the Citadel's systems.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 avril 2010 - 04:25 .

[Bigdoser]

FlyingBrickyard wrote...

Varyen wrote...

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing. Either way, humans are seen as the scum of the universe (next to the vorcha) by many regardless of what you do. The other races didn't like our fast track up the hiearchy (spell check?).

Agreed.  For now at least.  If you step back from it a bit, it'd be kind of like someone half your age coming in and seemingly getting a bunch of stuff just handed to them after you worked really hard most of your life to attain the same.  I imagine that wouldn't sit well with most people.  Respect is earned, and humans just haven't been around long enough yet to have earned very much of it. 

However, humanity is never going to earn any respect if you run around acting like a selfish, irresponsible child, so laying the groundwork for gaining that respect has to start somewhere.  Reapers aside, saving the Council takes a good step in that direction because it shows very clearly that like the other races, you're willing to put your own on the line for the greater good of the whole.  Even if it had failed and the DA was lost anyway, the attempt would have been significant, politically.

Not that I entertained politics when there was a Reaper at the door, but it was nice that the two coincided well on this one.
 

I did expect the human council to be a little more understanding but being told something along the lines of " you let the other council die & we're supposed to trust you?" kind of thing was complete BS imo.

I dunno, it makes sense to me.  Keep in mind, they're politicians - they lie and cheat and backstab each other as a matter of course for any political gain.  Their primary concern is self preservation and keeping their jobs.  If you tossed the Council once because you felt it was necessary in a crisis, I'd say it's pretty likely you'd do so again (and I think someone above even mentioned they'd do as much).  If anything, all you've done is proven beyond any doubt that you view the Council as an entity to be expendable.  They may not know that much about you as a person, but they definitely know that much.  And I'm pretty sure that's what they most care about. 

All of that aside, Shepard would be political poison for what is probably an already well disliked Council.  Getting all buddy-buddy with you upon your return would probably make an already difficult situation for them even worse.  Remember, their primary motivation is purely self-interest. 

I was annoyed by the fact that being a specter in ME1 meant NOTHING!. Poeple still regraded you as a lowly human & ignored the fact that you were a specter. And the 1st Human spector for that matter. I was also shocked that the salarian DR. ( can't think of his name right now) in ME2 said humans wen't specters while recruiting him.

It paid off for me a few times in ME2, although it wasn't in a huge way.  Helping out the Quarian and the two Asari on the Citadel come to mind.  But ME2 wasn't really about being a Spectre (ME1 wasn't either, but ME2 even less so).  I get the sense that in ME2 things have become much larger than the dealings of the Citadel, that the usual troubles and interests of even the Spectres pale in comparison to the level of "game" you're involved in now.  In short, Shepard and crew have moved well beyond the Spectre days, so it understanably carries even less weight and focus than before.

As for the rest, I chalked it all up to the general ignorance of the populace, the overall rarity of Spectres and the fact that most humans probably look mostly the same to every other species out there, just as we're hard pressed to identify specific Salarians, Asari, Elcor, Vlus, etc unless we deal with them on a regular basis.

For perspective, look at how unknown Asari Justicars were to non-Asari, and they've been around forever, comparatively.

I always liked your comments, i think mass effect is about trying to show wether humanity or shepard is willing to make scarifices for the greater good. Will humanity join the galatic stage as equals or crush every other races under their heel to be on top?

Modifié par Bigdoser, 04 avril 2010 - 04:28 .

[Hukari]

marshalleck wrote...

Hukari wrote...

Well, remember: The file from Vigil cut Sovereign off completely from the Citadel,

No it didn't. It lets Shepard override Saren's lockout.

Sovereign had direct physical access to the Citadel's systems.

Well, then that flies in the face of what both Vigil and the wiki have been telling me:

"When Saren failed to stop Shepard and died (either in a battle to the death with Shepard, or by committing suicide), Shepard then managed to input a data file made by Vigil to temporarily prevent Sovereign from gaining full control of the Citadel"

[marshalleck]

Hukari wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Hukari wrote...

Well, remember: The file from Vigil cut Sovereign off completely from the Citadel,

No it didn't. It lets Shepard override Saren's lockout.

Sovereign had direct physical access to the Citadel's systems.

Well, then that flies in the face of what both Vigil and the wiki have been telling me:

"When Saren failed to stop Shepard and died (either in a battle to the death with Shepard, or by committing suicide), Shepard then managed to input a data file made by Vigil to temporarily prevent Sovereign from gaining full control of the Citadel"

I agree, you're mistaken.

[DPSSOC]

Hukari wrote...

Well, remember: The file from Vigil cut Sovereign off completely from the Citadel, so again, he was rendered harmless in his summoning-the-Reapers plan.

Yes, but for how long.  We don't know.  Sovereign is for all intents and purposes a super computer it is only a matter of time til he finds some work around.  This may be hours, days, minutes, we don't know and we can't take the chance that we've only bought ourselves precious seconds.

[Saint Op]

Hukari wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Hukari wrote...

Well, remember: The file from Vigil cut Sovereign off completely from the Citadel,

No it didn't. It lets Shepard override Saren's lockout.

Sovereign had direct physical access to the Citadel's systems.

Well, then that flies in the face of what both Vigil and the wiki have been telling me:

"When Saren failed to stop Shepard and died (either in a battle to the death with Shepard, or by committing suicide), Shepard then managed to input a data file made by Vigil to temporarily prevent Sovereign from gaining full control of the Citadel"

Key words in bold. Not Stop, temporarily pervent.  That's the only reason we had enough time to stop him at all otherwise it may have been instant.

[The Sapien]

marshalleck wrote...

The Sapien wrote...

I hope you don't reduce all of your moral decisions to "success at any cost." Some of us believe that it is more important how you live your life rather than whether you continue.

Of course I don't. However, one thing I would consider utmost priority is the survival of all advanced life in the galaxy. That's a decision I, and my Shepards, would take very seriously. We're talking about extinction, or worse. In light of all that's at risk, I don't see how anyone can rationally jeaopardize every world ever colonized by their own people, every world colonized by other people, everything they've ever known, just for the sake of smoothing over politics by saving a single warship that's not even going to be of any benefit in the immediate conflict.

Agreed. But, now you're arguing against a strawman. No one saved the DA for political reasons, did they? My Shep didn't even consider the political ramifications. It was more like, OMG, I don't know, I'm down here fighting Saren while all of you guys up there with a bird's eye view of the battle are asking me what to do? Obviously, no one wanted to make the call.

[FlyingBrickyard]

marshalleck wrote...

Of course I don't. However, one thing I would consider utmost priority is the survival of all advanced life in the galaxy. That's a decision I, and my Shepards, would take very seriously. We're talking about extinction, or worse. In light of all that's at risk, I don't see how anyone can rationally jeaopardize every world ever colonized by their own people, every world colonized by other people, everything they've ever known, just for the sake of smoothing over politics by saving a single warship that's not even going to be of any benefit in the immediate conflict.

I covered this a bit previously, but to add to it a bit:

A big part of what helped the Reapers was the chaos that followed the destruction of the "council" every time they came to harvest all advanced life in the galaxy.  That was an essential part of the cylce of destruction they'd set up.

I was looking to break that, so having the council survive was a big check to the "normal" progression of things.

Even if Sovereign had been stopped but the existing council was lost, that would have been a partial victory for the Reapers.  The loss of the council would definitely add additional chaos and strain to the relationships between the various races in the galaxy.  I wouldn't be able to predict how much, but there's no question it would weaken the galactic community as a whole while they struggled to fill the power void left by an absent council.

There was already no small amount of griping and complaining by member races over who got what seat where as it was.  Imagine how messy it'd get if all seats were suddenly vacant?  It would certainly be a destabilizing influence, and ultimately, that's one of the things that helps the Reapers sweep through the galaxy and wipe everyone out.  There's no strong, unified and organized resistance. 

Sure, it could be built again over time with a new council in place, but that could take hundreds of years, and time isn't an available luxury when the Reapers are on their way. 

The only "total win" in that situation was saving the council.  It minimized the disruption of Sovereign's attack to the best extent possible, and that's good from an 'anti-Reaper' perspective.

One of the downsides of course is that the Council is still living in denial, but again.... policticians.  It's what they do.  At least with them still around you don't have various races on the edge of war with each other over who gets to be in charge and how things are run, leaving Shepard in a much better position to win friends and allies for the coming battle.

Modifié par FlyingBrickyard, 04 avril 2010 - 04:38 .

[marshalleck]

The Sapien wrote...

Agreed. But, now you're arguing against a strawman. No one saved the DA for political reasons, did they? My Shep didn't even consider the political ramifications. It was more like, OMG, I don't know, I'm down here fighting Saren while all of you guys up there with a bird's eye view of the battle are asking me what to do? Obviously, no one wanted to make the call.

I'm not arguing against a strawman. Several people have cited post-conflict political motivations for saving the Council in this very thread.

[Hukari]

Saint Op wrote...

Hukari wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Hukari wrote...

Well, remember: The file from Vigil cut Sovereign off completely from the Citadel,

No it didn't. It lets Shepard override Saren's lockout.

Sovereign had direct physical access to the Citadel's systems.

Well, then that flies in the face of what both Vigil and the wiki have been telling me:

"When Saren failed to stop Shepard and died (either in a battle to the death with Shepard, or by committing suicide), Shepard then managed to input a data file made by Vigil to temporarily prevent Sovereign from gaining full control of the Citadel"

Key words in bold. Not Stop, temporarily pervent.  That's the only reason we had enough time to stop him at all otherwise it may have been instant.

But, again, it comes down to whether you think/act like a Paragon or a Renegade. A Paragon is willing to take that risk, if it means saving lives. A Renegade, on the other hand, will start flipping out and trying to get things done as quick as possible, no matter how many die. It all comes down to the core philosophical arguments of the game, whether you get things done right, not quick, or whether you get things done quick, but screw things up later.

Sneaky edit: And, again, if we're going under the 'it could open at any time!'  thing, then wouldn't it still make more sense to save the Destiny Ascension? If it can open at any time, then you'll want to save what you can if they -do- come through. The Destiny Ascension was one of the strongest ships in Council Space, and would be invaluable in any conflict with the Reapers, whether you stop Sovereign or not.

Modifié par Hukari, 04 avril 2010 - 04:44 .

[marshalleck]

FlyingBrickyard wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Of course I don't. However, one thing I would consider utmost priority is the survival of all advanced life in the galaxy. That's a decision I, and my Shepards, would take very seriously. We're talking about extinction, or worse. In light of all that's at risk, I don't see how anyone can rationally jeaopardize every world ever colonized by their own people, every world colonized by other people, everything they've ever known, just for the sake of smoothing over politics by saving a single warship that's not even going to be of any benefit in the immediate conflict.

I covered this a bit previously, but to add to it a bit:

A big part of what helped the Reapers was the chaos that followed the destruction of the "council" every time they came to harvest all advanced life in the galaxy.  That was an essential part of the cylce of destruction they'd set up.

I was looking to break that, so having the council survive was a big check to the "normal" progression of things.

Even if Sovereign had been stopped by the existing council was lost, that would have been a partial victory for the Reapers.  The loss of the council would definitely add additional chaos and strain to the relationships between the varous races in the galaxy.  I wouldn't be able to predict how much, but there's no question it would weaken the galactic community as a whole while they struggled to fill the power void left by an absent council.

There was already no small amount of griping and complaining by member races over who got what seat where as it was.  Imagine how messy it'd get if all seats were suddenly vacant?  It would certainly be a destabilizing influence, and ultimately, that's one of the things that helps the Reapers sweep through the galaxy and wipe everyone out.  There's no strong, unified and organized resistance. 

Sure, it could be built again over time with a new council in place, but that could take hundreds of years, and time isn't an available luxury when the Reapers are on their way. 

The only "total win" in that situation was saving the council.  It minimized the disruption of Sovereign's attack to the best extent possible, and that's good from an 'anti-Reaper' perspective.

One of the downsides of course is that the Council is still living in denial, but again.... policticians.  It's what they do.  At least with them still around you don't have various races on the edge of war with each other over who gets to be in charge and how things are run, leaving Shepard in a much better position to win friends and allies for the coming battle.

Reaper victory isn't about killing an elected body, it's about suddenly, without warning, decapitating the head of galactic civilization. That means taking the entire Citadel, not just the players on top of the food chain. The Citadel is more than just a glorified UN building; it's a central galactic hub of politics, culture, defense, science, industry, trade, etc. etc.

Taking the Citadel destroys the foundation of galactic civilization. Everything collapses into the sudden vacuum that's left, leaving easy pickings behind. Even though the remaining home worlds are left intact after the initial onslaught, they cannot use the relay network which is completely deactivated, leaving each race and their colonies all isolated from each other.

Galactic civilization could survive losing the Destiny Ascension. They could not survive losing the Citadel itself.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 avril 2010 - 04:43 .

[Saint Op]

marshalleck wrote...

The Sapien wrote...

Agreed. But, now you're arguing against a strawman. No one saved the DA for political reasons, did they? My Shep didn't even consider the political ramifications. It was more like, OMG, I don't know, I'm down here fighting Saren while all of you guys up there with a bird's eye view of the battle are asking me what to do? Obviously, no one wanted to make the call.

I'm not arguing against a strawman. Several people have cited post-conflict political motivations for saving the Council in this very thread.

Yeah political reasons seems to be the main argument IDK why. 

But really everyone hates everyone in this game for some war or view on them so it really makes no difference. Alot of them didn't even like the counsil anyway. 

As for the after the reapers issue whos to say there would be an after the reapers if you took to long saving the DA, it was a race against time.

[Saint Op]

marshalleck wrote...

Reaper victory isn't about killing an elected body, it's about suddenly, without warning, decapitating the head of galactic civilization. That means taking the entire Citadel, not just the players on top of the food chain. The Citadel is more than just a glorified UN building; it's a central galactic hub of politics, culture, defense, science, industry, trade, etc. etc.

Taking the Citadel destroys the foundation of galactic civilization. Everything collapses into the sudden vacuum that's left, leaving easy pickings behind. Even though the remaining home worlds are left intact after the initial onslaught, they cannot use the relay network which is completely deactivated, leaving each race and their colonies all isolated from each other.

Galactic civilization could survive losing the Destiny Ascension. They could not survive losing the Citadel itself.

Yep thats it right there.  The way it was presented in the middle of killing Saren was a save 3 people or the entire place type deal to me.