37 réponses à ce sujet

[Shade of Wolf]

Arcane Warrior/Shapeshifter/Battlemage

6 spells used frequently:
1.Crushing Prison
2.Stinging Swarm
3.Tempest
4.Blizzard/Time Spiral (depends if you want to cast Storm of the Century)
5.Mana Clash
6.Hand of Winter

Sustained Abilities at all times:
1.Elemental Mastery
2.Telekinetik Weapons
3.Haste
4.Spell Might (essential)
5.Death Syphon
6.Combat Magic
7. Elemental Chaos (a must)
8.Sometimes I activate the rest of the Arcane Warrior abilities

I admit that Spirit Healer mightbe better than Shapeshifter, but with all my buffs I didn't need it.

[Daewan]

Pretty much any mage build with AW approaches invincible. It would be a harder challenge to make an AW that takes damage.

[Zilod]

ehm the problem is that when you shift you loose all your sustained spells, this is one of the reasons why shifter+aw is generally worse than aw that can benefit from self buffs and is more versatile with spells

[TBastian]

Why take Shapeshifter? Especially with so many sustaineds on. I see that you're also a (particularly) generalist type of mage, so the utility Shapeshifter grants is redundant. The +1 armor, +2 con is pointless since the build already has AW.

Modifié par TBastian, 05 avril 2010 - 07:12 .

[MistySun]

You live and learn.

[Hysteria]

Just a quick question.... many of those spells are like the 4th in a spell line...is it even possible to get to the 4th spell that often or is this just a 'dream mage' ?

[Aesthioseae]

Why not retrain Shapeshifter to keeper?

[Psychoray]

I'm sorry, but this is far from a good mage build. Shapeshifter is the worst spec available. Also, you should pick more anti boss spells, as standard mobs are hardly a threat to a mage.

[Shade of Wolf]

Zilod wrote...

ehm the problem is that when you shift you loose all your sustained spells, this is one of the reasons why shifter+aw is generally worse than aw that can benefit from self buffs and is more versatile with spells

Yeah losing all the buffs is a pain, I only used the shapeshifter in origins, and kept it in awakening in memory of Morrigan.

[Shade of Wolf]

Hysteria wrote...

Just a quick question.... many of those spells are like the 4th in a spell line...is it even possible to get to the 4th spell that often or is this just a 'dream mage' ?

......Lolz.......I had many tomes.

[Shade of Wolf]

Aesthioseae wrote...

Why not retrain Shapeshifter to keeper?

I like being a swarm -really fast for those annoying forest maps.

[Shade of Wolf]

Psychoray wrote...

I'm sorry, but this is far from a good mage build. Shapeshifter is the worst spec available. Also, you should pick more anti boss spells, as standard mobs are hardly a threat to a mage.

I like shapeshifter, it's FUN to become another animal, I don't pick specializations based on the stats they give, I just pick whatever I find will be fun.
You said that I have no boss spells..........what would you call Storm of the Century? (and by the way I have every spell but I mostly use the ones listed above)
And the Elemental Chaos has saved me loads of times when I have been lifted by bosses - like 150,150,150,150... and then they drop me because they're dead.

Modifié par Shade of Wolf, 06 avril 2010 - 09:50 .

[Shade of Wolf]

Daewan wrote...

Pretty much any mage build with AW approaches invincible. It would be a harder challenge to make an AW that takes damage.

My Arcane Warrior is always my tank because it annoys me to see other characters get the cool slo-mo kills lol, so I do suck up a lot fo damage, especially with all the buffs.

[Psychoray]

Shade of Wolf wrote...

Psychoray wrote...

I'm sorry, but this is far from a good mage build. Shapeshifter is the worst spec available. Also, you should pick more anti boss spells, as standard mobs are hardly a threat to a mage.

I like shapeshifter, it's FUN to become another animal, I don't pick specializations based on the stats they give, I just pick whatever I find will be fun.
You said that I have no boss spells..........what would you call Storm of the Century? (and by the way I have every spell but I mostly use the ones listed above)
And the Elemental Chaos has saved me loads of times when I have been lifted by bosses - like 150,150,150,150... and then they drop me because they're dead.

It can imagine you find it fun, but you're posting a thread with the title "Near -Invincible Mage build", so I expected you were posting a min-maxed/optimized build.

Storm of the Century is not very efficient when it comes to mana usage vs a single target, same goes for elemental chaos.

Anti boss spells are (IMO) cone of cold, misdirection hex, force field, vulnerability hex, glyph of paralyzation, paralyze, miasma, repulsion field etc

[Shade of Wolf]

Psychoray wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...

Psychoray wrote...

I'm sorry, but this is far from a good mage build. Shapeshifter is the worst spec available. Also, you should pick more anti boss spells, as standard mobs are hardly a threat to a mage.

I like shapeshifter, it's FUN to become another animal, I don't pick specializations based on the stats they give, I just pick whatever I find will be fun.
You said that I have no boss spells..........what would you call Storm of the Century? (and by the way I have every spell but I mostly use the ones listed above)
And the Elemental Chaos has saved me loads of times when I have been lifted by bosses - like 150,150,150,150... and then they drop me because they're dead.

It can imagine you find it fun, but you're posting a thread with the title "Near -Invincible Mage build", so I expected you were posting a min-maxed/optimized build.

Storm of the Century is not very efficient when it comes to mana usage vs a single target, same goes for elemental chaos.

Anti boss spells are (IMO) cone of cold, misdirection hex, force field, vulnerability hex, glyph of paralyzation, paralyze, miasma, repulsion field etc

Not when you ahve 350+ mana..........
And besides the fun element of shapeshifter, there is the tanking ability when you run out of mana, retaining bonuses of massive armour, perhaps I should have said 'Arguably a near-invincible mage build', and besides the forum is for telling your builds and this was mine, whick worked greatly.

[Psychoray]

Shade of Wolf wrote...

Psychoray wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...

Psychoray wrote...

I'm sorry, but this is far from a good mage build. Shapeshifter is the worst spec available. Also, you should pick more anti boss spells, as standard mobs are hardly a threat to a mage.

I like shapeshifter, it's FUN to become another animal, I don't pick specializations based on the stats they give, I just pick whatever I find will be fun.
You said that I have no boss spells..........what would you call Storm of the Century? (and by the way I have every spell but I mostly use the ones listed above)
And the Elemental Chaos has saved me loads of times when I have been lifted by bosses - like 150,150,150,150... and then they drop me because they're dead.

It can imagine you find it fun, but you're posting a thread with the title "Near -Invincible Mage build", so I expected you were posting a min-maxed/optimized build.

Storm of the Century is not very efficient when it comes to mana usage vs a single target, same goes for elemental chaos.

Anti boss spells are (IMO) cone of cold, misdirection hex, force field, vulnerability hex, glyph of paralyzation, paralyze, miasma, repulsion field etc

Not when you ahve 350+ mana..........
And besides the fun element of shapeshifter, there is the tanking ability when you run out of mana, retaining bonuses of massive armour, perhaps I should have said 'Arguably a near-invincible mage build', and besides the forum is for telling your builds and this was mine, whick worked greatly.

Yes, even when you have 350+ mana. I can burn trough that amount of mana quite quickly, especially when running around with Spell Might/Shimmering Shield activated. Luckily, there's the blood mage spec which allows you to cycle between mana/health.

Every build works 'great', but not on every difficulty. It's just a fact that the shapeshifter is the worst mage spec available, just read trough some of the threads about it. Arcane warrior is a much better spec.

I know everyone has their own preferences/playstyle but this is far from a near invincible mage build. As you said, this forum is for the discussion of builds. Cristicism on a build is part of that, especially when advertising it as near invincible. (But I'm not sure this can be build, as you've seemingly posted your favorite specs/spells/playstyle. A proper 'build' should atleast adhere to the rules of the game instead of using extra tome mods or anything like that.)

[Zilod]

shape shift can be fun and to make it works AW (or high str) is kinda needed, but sadly is a very bad spec that gimp your char rather than to boost it

as said you loose all your sust buffs, you cant cast anymore and even as an "emergency button" if you draw mobs attention is rather useless due to the long cast time (by the time an unarmored mage turns into a bear or something he is alredy dead)

on top of that all the forms are rather pointless, dont give enought armor to be really viable as a tank/melee, dont give enought dmg to be usefull as dps, all they have is ovewhelm and you need to spend 4 points to get it and to give up all the uberness of a mage to become a "gimped dog" doesnt seem that good to me

the only interesting form is imo the swarm but have the problem that it consume mana and you cant replentish it, there is not a fast mana heal, you cant use potions so, if you dont pay attention you end up changing back into mage in no time with 0 mana as the form is frail even vs attacks it should be immune (arrows killing a swarm?)



i'm quite harsh with shifter, but thats because i really like the concept, i enjoyed a lot the old nwn shifter and hoped it was something similar to that rather than this crap... the final joke is that even the morph abilities in the fade as waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than shifter and they are more similar to what a shifter had to be... a versatile spec able to deal with most situations using its various forms... /end rant

[Lowenhart]

Psychoray wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...

Psychoray wrote...

Shade of Wolf wrote...

Psychoray wrote...

I'm sorry, but this is far from a good mage build. Shapeshifter is the worst spec available. Also, you should pick more anti boss spells, as standard mobs are hardly a threat to a mage.

I like shapeshifter, it's FUN to become another animal, I don't pick specializations based on the stats they give, I just pick whatever I find will be fun.
You said that I have no boss spells..........what would you call Storm of the Century? (and by the way I have every spell but I mostly use the ones listed above)
And the Elemental Chaos has saved me loads of times when I have been lifted by bosses - like 150,150,150,150... and then they drop me because they're dead.

It can imagine you find it fun, but you're posting a thread with the title "Near -Invincible Mage build", so I expected you were posting a min-maxed/optimized build.

Storm of the Century is not very efficient when it comes to mana usage vs a single target, same goes for elemental chaos.

Anti boss spells are (IMO) cone of cold, misdirection hex, force field, vulnerability hex, glyph of paralyzation, paralyze, miasma, repulsion field etc

Not when you ahve 350+ mana..........
And besides the fun element of shapeshifter, there is the tanking ability when you run out of mana, retaining bonuses of massive armour, perhaps I should have said 'Arguably a near-invincible mage build', and besides the forum is for telling your builds and this was mine, whick worked greatly.

Yes, even when you have 350+ mana. I can burn trough that amount of mana quite quickly, especially when running around with Spell Might/Shimmering Shield activated. Luckily, there's the blood mage spec which allows you to cycle between mana/health.

Every build works 'great', but not on every difficulty. It's just a fact that the shapeshifter is the worst mage spec available, just read trough some of the threads about it. Arcane warrior is a much better spec.

I know everyone has their own preferences/playstyle but this is far from a near invincible mage build. As you said, this forum is for the discussion of builds. Cristicism on a build is part of that, especially when advertising it as near invincible. (But I'm not sure this can be build, as you've seemingly posted your favorite specs/spells/playstyle. A proper 'build' should atleast adhere to the rules of the game instead of using extra tome mods or anything like that.)

True shimmering shield by itself devour alot of mana if you dont have a siezably huge amount of dex or defense skill to counter being hit.

Well the Blood magic wont work around the shimmering shield problem, if your mana zeroes out the shield goes on CD, the warden's keep potion/flask ability can counter a bit of it by converting health into mana, but shimmering shield doesnt stack with blood magic, if you in blood magic mode the shield will only take from your mana not your health using blood magic, so either way its useful to keep a good bit of mana especially if you plan on using alot of substantials such as Rock armor, arcane shield, spell wisp, telekinetic weapons, miasme or Death magic.

Modifié par Lowenhart, 06 avril 2010 - 02:43 .

[Psychoray]

Lowenhart wrote...

True shimmering shield by itself devour alot of mana if you dont have a siezably huge amount of dex or defense skill to counter being hit.

Well the Blood magic wont work around the shimmering shield problem, if your mana zeroes out the shield goes on CD, the warden's keep potion/flask ability can counter a bit of it by converting health into mana, but shimmering shield doesnt stack with blood magic, if you in blood magic mode the shield will only take from your mana not your health using blood magic, so either way its useful to keep a good bit of mana especially if you plan on using alot of substantials such as Rock armor, arcane shield, spell wisp, telekinetic weapons, miasme or Death magic.

There's enough stuff with +mana regen in the game to counter the mana drain effect of shimmering shield (and still regen mana).

For example (PC values for mana regen, not console values):

- Wade's Superior Dragonskin Armor +2,0
- Andruil's Blessing: +2,0
- Cailan's Shield + Maric's blade: +5,75
- 2nd level of the combat combat training: +0,5
- Fade shroud: +1,0
- Innate mana regen: +1,0

That's already enough to offset the effects. There are way more items like Nature's Blessing (+3,0), Staff of the Magister Lords (+2,0) and so on. 

---

The stoic ability of the battlemage spec will give you mana everytime your health is lowered. (40 damage translates to 20 mana I believe, but I'm not sure). This even works for blood mage casting, so you get mana for casting in blood mage mode! 

Also, the heal spell essentially turns mana into health (with awesome efficiency). This allows me to cycle between health/mana. (For every point in Willpower I invest 2 in Magic, I like a decent mana pool.)

Everything can solo'd on nightmare this way, without potions. (Haven't tried The Mother yet)

Modifié par Psychoray, 06 avril 2010 - 03:11 .

[TBastian]

Every build works 'great', but not on every difficulty. It's just a fact that the shapeshifter is the worst mage spec available, just read trough some of the threads about it.

It only proves what they know.
The Shapeshifter is indeed a very powerful specialization, but it just loses much of its usefulness when paired with AW.

shape shift can be fun and to make it works AW (or high str) is kinda needed, but sadly is a very bad spec that gimp your char rather than to boost it

I assume you only got that from other threads. Well, many people in boards have been known to say the darndest things about stuff they know little about.

as said you loose all your sust buffs, you cant cast anymore and even as an "emergency button" if you draw mobs attention is rather useless due to the long cast time (by the time an unarmored mage turns into a bear or something he is alredy dead)

You lose all your buffs and yet all of the forms have very high constitution scores. Bear grants you +10 armor. The swarm has a natural dodge, and is immune to normal missiles. Bear can Overwhelm for 300+ damage while disabling a target for 6-8 seconds in Origins, and can hit for 600+ in Awakenings. Spider's Overwhelm does less damage, but it's a reliable disable and Spider already comes with its own nuke and another disable. Overwhelm can also make a Shapeshifter match all but pure DPS warriors/rogues when it comes to dealing damage to something immune to Overwhelm (no, I didn't write that wrong) due to how it works.
So what if you lose all your sustained buffs and ability to cast? The forms are very powerful, and you wouldn't be shifting if your spells could accomplish more given the same situation. What if I've already used up my strongest spells and I'm waiting for the 10 second cooldown? No thanks, I'd rather not auto-attack when I'm surrounded.
The Shapeshifter's human form is a bit tougher than other mages', and if your Shapeshifter is somehow dying too quickly then you simply did not follow through the +2 con, +1 armor bonus. You had the initiative, and you wasted it. Had you aimed for +def gear and Arcane Armor early on you would've had a decent chance of sidestepping attacks even in nightmare. A caster Shifter does not need any other stat besides magic, which is why his gear should focus on keeping him alive. All defensive bonuses are also carried over when shifting - it's basically part of shifter playstyle to use defensive (+def, armor, dodge, etc) gear.

on top of that all the forms are rather pointless, dont give enought armor to be really viable as a tank/melee, dont give enought dmg to be usefull as dps, all they have is ovewhelm and you need to spend 4 points to get it and to give up all the uberness of a mage to become a "gimped dog" doesnt seem that good to me

This only shows how little you know about the specialization. Spider form attacks as fast a dual-wielder, and if you give your mage a weapon (Jory's sword is best, although any basic tier 1 weapon will do) you'll notice that you can outdamage almost everyone with it at low levels. A bear with proper items can tank bosses like the High Dragon quite efficiently (swarm can also do a good job of hold its attention, but only in skilled hands). If your allies are very good DPSers you might not even need a healer. All forms skills ignore magic resistance - Swarm's AoE hits as hard as inferno and is un-resistable (only nature immunity/resistance negates it). Each skill has its own unique property - Slam draws a significant amount of threat, for example. A "gimped dog"? You must have a very weird reason for wanting to keep your shifter in bear/spider/swarm for indefinitely. Especially when shifting back to human form is an instant action.

the only interesting form is imo the swarm but have the problem that it consume mana and you cant replentish it, there is not a fast mana heal, you cant use potions so, if you dont pay attention you end up changing back into mage in no time with 0 mana as the form is frail even vs attacks it should be immune (arrows killing a swarm?)

That's wrong. You can actually regain mana while in Swarm form, you only lose your base mana regeneration. Regeneration from skills and items apply. Auto-attacks can damage the swarm - there are several, like Scattering Shot.
Swarm is a form you use when you find yourself surrounded, possibly after you have just dealt massive damage to everyone in the vicinity. The trick is to not stay still unless you're in Awakenings and took Stoic. Another trick is to fly in circles around a busy party member, using him/her as a barrier.

Modifié par TBastian, 06 avril 2010 - 03:55 .

[Zilod]

i know the spec quite well as i tried to make it work decently but sadly it doesnt



with swarm you regenerate mana from ite and still can benefit from mass restoration, but in no way that counter a mob attacking you, expecially with the crap armor of swarm, not to say that swarm generate tons of aggro



spider can outdamage npcs at very low levels, but well any char can outdamage npcs basically at any level, you should compare spider with other pcs and it will not oudamage anything, not even a normal mage or a mix maxed aw... also i want to see how much the spider will last at lv7 whitout good equip from aw



and about the bear tanking... what you are saying is that a shifter with aw equipement can tank a boss (well even my normal mage can tank a boss with hex3 but thats another story ) the problem is that the same char, out of bear form will tank the boss waaay better as he will have better armor, capped spells resists, eventually higher defence and will deal more damage too and will be even more versatile due to the spells at his disposal.



in the end you are saying that aw is so good that can make shifter kinda work, the problem is that when you shift you are actually gimping yourself as the aw will be just much better

[oyzar]

Almost any mage build is near invincible given that we are playing as humans against computers. The OP is probably right that he haven't been defeated with this build (which is what invincible means). That doesn't mean it is the most over the top combination possible, but really noone are counting and noone cares either if one build is trouncing the opponents harder than another. Once you understand the game mechanics enough you have to restrict yourself in addition to the restrictions given by the game in the form of difficulty to find the game challenging. For example there are some reports of people soloing the game on nightmare. Personally I would never play that way as the interactions between characters is part of what makes the game fun, however I still try to keep my main character with at least 80% of the kills and not use mages at all as an example(sadly there is only one mage origin, so to play them all you have to play way more as warrior and rouge then as mage).

[TBastian]

with swarm you regenerate mana from ite and still can benefit from mass restoration, but in no way that counter a mob attacking you, expecially with the crap armor of swarm, not to say that swarm generate tons of aggro

The swarm takes on your mage's stats. By saying that the swarm's stats sucks you are basically saying that your mage's stats sucked. Can't be helped, in that case.
You lose your sustaineds, but swarm has an inherent dodge. It is also immune to knockdown, knockback and special attacks.
The swarm generates lots of aggro yes, but this is a blessing in disguise.
BTW, since we're discussing Awakenings Stoic works with Swarm. A Swarm in Awakenings is practically invincible with it. Stoic's mana increase is either capped or does not reflect the amount of damage taken though, so very powerful attacks can still drain the swarm's mana.

spider can outdamage npcs at very low levels, but well any char can outdamage npcs basically at any level, you should compare spider with other pcs and it will not oudamage anything, not even a normal mage or a mix maxed aw... also i want to see how much the spider will last at lv7 whitout good equip from aw0

It does in mine. Especially with Ser Jory's sword or the Chasind Greatsword/Maul (the ones you find in the forest before Lothering). Read: spider basically turns your mage into a two-handed warrior sans the slow attack speed at low levels.

and about the bear tanking... what you are saying is that a shifter with aw equipement can tank a boss (well even my normal mage can tank a boss with hex3 but thats another story )

Of course it's another story. 3 hexes, 3 mages? I thought we were discussing only the Shapeshifter spec here, much less a single mage in general.

the problem is that the same char, out of bear form will tank the boss waaay better as he will have better armor, capped spells resists, eventually higher defence and will deal more damage too and will be even more versatile due to the spells at his disposal.

When did the Arcane Warrior enter the discussion?
In any case, I'll play along. No, he won't deal more damage if he's the one tanking. Being grabbed and disabled for 6-8 seconds every once in a while has something to do with it. Capped spell resist? So we're talking Awakenings now? My Bear in Awakenings had 40% dodge (not counting improved Arcane Armor), 40+ armor, 50% spell resist, a Taunt (in the form of Slam), 90 con and is immune to Grab/Overwhelm. I've soloed dragons with him.
Spellcasting is irrelevant. If I wanted to cast spells I would be doing so. Obviously a mage casting spells in front of a dragon is just waiting to be killed by a Grab though, isn't he? Besides, Shapeshifters no longer need a tanking character in Awakenings (everything is overpowered in Awakenings). This in mind, all of my party mates are DPSers. Since I don't intend to have two-hander Oghren/archer Nathaniel/Sigrun tank, then I must take matters into my own hands. Besides, all of them outdamage me in terms of single-target DPS (I would be lying through my teeth if I said they couldn't, the new Awakening warrior/rogue skills are insanely powerful).

in the end you are saying that aw is so good that can make shifter kinda work, the problem is that when you shift you are actually gimping yourself as the aw will be just much better

AW does not work well with shifter. Don't make me repeat that again, they just don't work well together (like archery and two-handed weapon skills). Sure you can improve your forms with armor/weapons... then what? Shapeshifting si supposed to complement spellcasting by acting as a utility/versatility spec for focused mages, but once you start thinking your forms should replace spellcasting then you are in dire need of a reality check.
Your forms are only as good as your mage, and if you know how to make them work they'll never cease to amaze you. But if your mage is gimped in the first place, your forms will reflect this.

Modifié par TBastian, 06 avril 2010 - 06:17 .

[Alteri]

No love for spirit healers?

[Zilod]

@Tbastian



you say that if shifted stats are crap then the mage stats are bad too... you also say that aw doesnt work well with shifter...



well aw is the only spec that have some synergy with shifter... basically with a shifter you have 2 routes



mix magic and str or go with aw... you need high str to wear armor or use 2h stuff but critters stats are influenced by magic (higher the magic score, higher are the various critter bonuses) so is kinda problematic to optimize that, expecially if you want to take advantage of swarm that probably will need some extra will, not to say that i doubt you are going to spend 100% time shifted or really a war or a rog will be waaaay more effective (and probably fun) to play so, having to pump str will impact your magic capacity also we have also to consider that such mage can pretty much wear armor, activate his buffs and dont transform at all retaining his higher versatility.



aw helps with that as it permit to wear armor and weapons just using the magic stats so making you an overall better mage too the bonuses you will get from shifting will be higher and you will have a more effective mage... the problem is that at this point is just better to go aw route that offer better dmg, tankability and versatility



now to be fair is also true that aw may need some investiment in dex too, but less than a shifter need to invest in str to wear armor (if you dont get aw) as aw is still capable to buff his own attack and debuff opponent defences



not i'm not saying that shifter is umplayable, of course you can play and have fun with a shifter if you put effort into it, the problem is that shifted forms lose all the mage casting capability and the gain is not that good, expecially compared to AW that basically can do everything a shifted mage do but just better.

and this as said, not because i hate the class, quite the opposite, i had quite high expecatitions from it, expecially as i enjoyed the one in nwn... but it seem to me it was put way more effort in the fade transformations rather than the spec... fade stuff that have a good variety, they are instant (so you can adapt fast to situations), and generally they are quite fun to play with.