535 réponses à ce sujet

[Maloneyberry]

Pretty much what Jeirt said, especially regarding Garrus' romance. Love Garrus, but just couldn't get past the romance's initiation. I actually very militantly shared the opinion that the femshep romances were not up to par with manshep's, due in part to having been seriously thrown off by the alien LI's. I ended up being pleasantly surprised by the depth and emotion of Thane's romance.

[shnellegaming]

I always thought that the romance story and scenes for all of them (both male and female) were a bit teasing.  Basically they meant to be a bit lite, nothing really fully romantic like a love scene or declarations of soulmates. I'm hoping this means they are saving it all for ME3.

That said I am a female gamer and I love the Garrus and Thane romances. I thought they were written quite well for those characters.

Jacob.....no....that was just sleaze.

Modifié par shnellegaming, 05 avril 2010 - 09:19 .

[MarginalBeast]

I don't remember Thane mentioning his dead wife during his romance scenes even once.

Also, subtext. Learn to love it.

Modifié par MarginalBeast, 05 avril 2010 - 09:24 .

[Peppard]

jlb524 wrote...

KnotEngaged wrote...


That was kind of my point.  It's not that the Femshep romances are bad because they were written with male players in mind, it's just that they are poorly written.  The notion of a lack of a female prespective on the writing staff is a possibility, but if you are a professional writer you really shouldn't be having problems writing romances that appeals to both men and women.

Right, whether you are of the opinion that the ME2 romance options for FemShep were good or bad, one thing I think most now agree on is that they were not written for men playing FemShep.

I still think there's a difference in how they write the female versus male romances though, maybe because of the starting point in the character design and overall place of those characters in the story.  If  you read the developer diary about Thane, they talk about how they first came up with a cool alien design, then reworked it because the character had to serve as an LI.  

Not sure how to quote from another forum other than cut and paste, but  here's what Dusty Everman the ME writer said about Ken:
"Believe it or not, he isn't a reference to Star Trek.  At one time earlier in development, there were going to be light romances on the Normandy.  Unfortunately, we just didn't have the writing or cinematic design budget to do that, so the light romances were cut.  Ken was going to be the straight female light romance option.  My wife is a huge Ewan McGregor  fan, and she gets weak in the knees for a scottish accent.  Hence, Ken is scottish.  It was later when we were recording the VO that someone mentioned the Star Trek reference.  I face planted into my palms, then recovered by saying  "yeaaahhhh, it's an homage.  That's the ticket." "

So regardless of what the  writers start off with in terms of their intentions, maybe something gets lost or changed in the programming and editing process, in the same way that entire planned romances get cut.  

[sagefic]

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

Not all of us consider Twilight to be the standard of a good romance story.  And which LI doesn't like you?

twilight. (shudder) i my point was that there is not that twilight should be the standard. god forbid. my point was merely that there is a reason the formula of that particular love story carries across the female demographic. 2 hot guys fighting for you is appealing - EVEN if you know it's a pretty ridiculous thing IRL. i may dislike that series, but i will grant that reading the first book (far as i got) i found myself saying, "sheesh, if *I* was in bella's shoes...i'd...augh! what am i saying?" it's the fantasy of being the center of attention. not that everyone gets that or wants that in their rational thinking. but that THAT fantasy does appeal across a wide demographic and often in spite of common sense.

and as for what LI doesn't like you, i just mean the man seem to be lukewarm. or maybe it's just the romances were so short they seemed lukewarm:

garrus: "i won't pretend i have some fetish for humans" - dropped the romance right there for me. but maybe some folks read that differently than i did.
thane: shep says "i want you" - not an option i feel like choosing after the guy is talking about his dead wife that he loved
jacob: ugh...i just didn't even talk to him shep went so out of character weird with that guy.
kaiden: has the smile after the eden prime mission - is clearly interested. this one actually played the way i prefer romances to play.

i guess a lot of it came down to the fact that i didn't like how femsehp came across in the male LIs. if i'm hearing liso right, she was saying that some of us gals prefer a different style of romantic story - and it was not as forthcoming in ME2. *I* (And i don't think i'm alone in this) like romances to find that the male is very interested in the woman - sexually and personally. call me crazy. i just find that romantic (i know, i'm a weirdo ) 

JohnnyDollar wrote...

What would you have rather seen with these 2?
Jacob?
Kaiden?

jacob? huh, well, i thought the ME2 human male romance would be some sort of renegade bad boy to woo shep away from (by default) paragon cautious-man kaiden. was rather surprised to find jacob was...well, he's not a bad character, it's just when femshep goes near him her dialog goes crazy awful. he's just sort of...a non-entity.

and what to i want to see with kaiden? i felt his role in ME2 was just fine. i like horizons. i thought that arc was well done and i loved the picture scene. i'm happy to see how this plays out later. for the record, i'd love to see him show off his biotics. we hear a lot about it, but never see it.

Halmiriliath wrote...

Don't forget the hot intro sequence for the Biotic God. The way he stumbles around, the way he talks - you can tell he's got a lover in every port, the promiscuous devil that he is. He's bound to come back into Shepard's life with a heart-melting bang in the third instalment...

agreed.

you'll see i support the biotic god. i'm thinking of dumping kaiden for him. he's just so round and squishy. HAWT!

Modifié par sagequeen, 05 avril 2010 - 09:42 .

[kglaser]

imported_beer wrote...

Masticetobbacco wrote...

imported_beer wrote...

I saw the romances on youtube. Men do get the hawter smecks scenes, but given that two of the fem romance options are alien, maybe the problem that Bioware faced was...ahem...how exactly to depict them.

I was under the impression women hated games with secks

Maybe that is the problem.

Bioware- if you are listening. WOMEN LOVE SMECKS, K? GIVE THEM SOME TORRID, ROMANTIC, FREAKY OR ABSOLUTELY CRAZY SMECKS. JUST GET ON THAT COMPUTER AND DO IT! DO NOT STOP AT THE FOREPLAY FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD. THAT IS JUST FRUSTRATING.

Now before some developer starts freaking about about the implications of this, I wished to specify I meant via the NPCs.

QFT
Say it sister!

[Sad Dragon]

Peppard wrote...

Not sure how to quote from another forum other than cut and paste, but  here's what Dusty Everman the ME writer said about Ken:
"Believe it or not, he isn't a reference to Star Trek.  At one time earlier in development, there were going to be light romances on the Normandy.  Unfortunately, we just didn't have the writing or cinematic design budget to do that, so the light romances were cut.  Ken was going to be the straight female light romance option.  My wife is a huge Ewan McGregor  fan, and she gets weak in the knees for a scottish accent.  Hence, Ken is scottish.  It was later when we were recording the VO that someone mentioned the Star Trek reference.  I face planted into my palms, then recovered by saying  "yeaaahhhh, it's an homage.  That's the ticket." "

So regardless of what the  writers start off with in terms of their intentions, maybe something gets lost or changed in the programming and editing process, in the same way that entire planned romances get cut.  

Ah yes, i do remember reading that one. The writing and by extention VO i can accept, but unless they where going for a cinematic in the vein of the standard romances all my knowledge is saying BS to the cinematid design part of it. Though could be that both Kelly and Ken where supposed to have their own cinematics. In which case i do not doubt his point.

/TSD

[kglaser]

Outside of the Jacob fan thread, which I've never visited, has there been a mention of even one person liking the way the Jacob romance was done--specifically, the "priiiiize" line?

[Peppard]

sagequeen wrote...

you'll see i support the biotic god. i'm thinking of dumping kaiden for him. he's just so round and squishy. HAWT!

So, for ME3, ....  Biotic God, Conrad Verner, and the cigar smoking Elcor merchant would be the dream LI  line up ? Maybe a Vorcha for a light romance, because you know, it'd be shallow to exclude them just because of how they  look and  sound a bit like they got lost on their way to audition for roles as Darkspawn in DA:0.   So many options, really.  

[JamieCOTC]

MarginalBeast wrote...

I don't remember Thane mentioning his dead wife during his romance scenes even once.

Also, subtext. Learn to love it.

As to subtext, I think my favorite female romance in the game was Ashley. 

[enormousmoonboots]

sagequeen wrote...

and as for what LI doesn't like you, i just mean the man seem to be lukewarm. or maybe it's just the romances were so short they seemed lukewarm:

garrus: "i won't pretend i have some fetish for humans" - dropped the romance right there for me. but maybe some folks read that differently than i did.
thane: shep says "i want you" - not an option i feel like choosing after the guy is talking about his dead wife that he loved
jacob: ugh...i just didn't even talk to him shep went so out of character weird with that guy.
kaiden: has the smile after the eden prime mission - is clearly interested. this one actually played the way i prefer romances to play.

Well, the second half of that Garrus line is "But this isn't about that. This is about us." which always struck me as really romantic (I guess that's how you'd put it). He cares about you so much that he doesn't even care that you're human.

But the female romances do have a notably different structure; in the Garrus and Thane romances, there's basically a ROMANCE THIS PERSON Y/N dialog option, with only those two choices on the wheel. With Miranda and Jack, the romance path is triggered by simply being kind to them, with no blatant I WANT YOU, THANE choice (Tali is the only romance who actually comes on to you, so it is effectively a Y/N choice, and Jacobmance is so weird I'm not including it). I would guess that this is the origin of the impression that OMG FEMSHEP IS A SKANK IN HER ROMANCE.

Modifié par enormousmoonboots, 05 avril 2010 - 10:50 .

[Xaijin]

Sounds like people expected to be chased down, stripped and pinned to a drive core to understand that romance is commencing.



Waiting for the opposite to do all the work is pretty much sign #1 it isn't going to work out. Apparently that holds true here too.

[IccaRa]

MarginalBeast wrote...

I don't remember Thane mentioning his dead wife during his romance scenes even once.

Also, subtext. Learn to love it.

Thank you. And honestly, people blow the Irikah thing way out of proportion. You have to look at the full context.

Thane has never been able to talk about his past life with anyone, ever, not in ten years at the least. It's the only time in his life he can remember feeling anything close to happiness. Of course he'll want to tell Shepard about it, Shepard being his first friend in all that time, the first person to express interest in what he's been through (remember, Shepard is the one asking Thane about all this. He's only answering questions.) Of course he'll want to let her know who he was, the mistakes he made, especially when Shepard is asked to help with Kolyat. He's clearing the air. What, people would rather he never mention it, ever? Then they'd complain he was keeping secrets and not opening up enough and fabricate even more nonsense to fill the gaps.

After telling Shepard the full story and admitting to his feelings Irikah is never brought up again because there's nothing more to tell. The only person who keeps harping on her are the players who seem obsessed with holding it against him. After his loyalty mission Thane is completely over his past. He's starting anew, feeling anew, fearing to lose anew. That's why you can't romance him if you fail his loyalty, and that's the reasoning behind lines like "I've spent too much time in introspection of late. That needs to change" and his struggle with the thought of losing Shepard.

Anyway everyone will react differently to each romance and that's a-ok. And everyone will have their favorites.

I only think people should like and dislike things for what they are and what they were designed to be, and not feel the need to prop up their like or dislikes with exagerration.

[IccaRa]

enormousmoonboots wrote...
But the female romances do have a notably different structure; in the Garrus and Thane romances, there's basically a ROMANCE THIS PERSON Y/N dialog option, with only those two choices on the wheel. With Miranda and Jack, the romance path is triggered by simply being kind to them, with no blatant I WANT YOU, THANE choice (Tali is the only romance who actually comes on to you, so it is effectively a Y/N choice, and Jacobmance is so weird I'm not including it). I would guess that this is the origin of the impression that OMG FEMSHEP IS A SKANK IN HER ROMANCE.

It's no coincidence that the alien romances are the ones where you have to be a bit more conscious of your dialog choices.

And while Garrus' romance is triggered by one specific line, yes, Thane's has more than one opportunity to trigger (IIRC, and I can't speak for Tali yet) and that infamous "I want you" prompt is actually very innocuous sounding and not at all as tasteless or direct as the prompt would lead you to believe.

I think the "skank" vibe is mostly the fault of VA with Jacob (poor guy) and the directness of Garrus' romance (which isn't really a bad thing as it make sense in context.)

[enormousmoonboots]

IccaRa wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...
But the female romances do have a notably different structure; in the Garrus and Thane romances, there's basically a ROMANCE THIS PERSON Y/N dialog option, with only those two choices on the wheel. With Miranda and Jack, the romance path is triggered by simply being kind to them, with no blatant I WANT YOU, THANE choice (Tali is the only romance who actually comes on to you, so it is effectively a Y/N choice, and Jacobmance is so weird I'm not including it). I would guess that this is the origin of the impression that OMG FEMSHEP IS A SKANK IN HER ROMANCE.

It's no coincidence that the alien romances are the ones where you have to be a bit more conscious of your dialog choices.

And while Garrus' romance is triggered by one specific line, yes, Thane's has more than one opportunity to trigger (IIRC, and I can't speak for Tali yet) and that infamous "I want you" prompt is actually very innocuous sounding and not at all as tasteless or direct as the prompt would lead you to believe.

I think the "skank" vibe is mostly the fault of VA with Jacob (poor guy) and the directness of Garrus' romance (which isn't really a bad thing as it make sense in context.)

Yeah, I know the "I want you" choice actually leads to some nice dialog, surprised the hell out of me when I went for Thane. Whatever, scriptwriter.

You sure it has multiple triggers, though? I know you can flirt with him, but I think it still eventually comes down to a conversation wheel with "Romance: Y/N" on it.

[mundus66]

While i can agree to some extent that the female romances are kinda lame. From your thread you make it sound like ME1 had better romances, Kaiden and a lesbian romance?

Sure for us males lesbian romance might be better. But from a female perspective shouldn't ME2 have better romances? However if you think that both ME1 and 2 has lamer romances for girls i'm with you there. But imo ME2 was actually a step up from ME1. And Kaiden is the whiniest punk in the galaxy i had him killed every time, even on my female characters.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Maviarab wrote...

Whilst your post is very good, was it really needed, given how many other threads there are regarding this problem?

And as a male gamer, I actually do agree with you btw

Every vote counts in an election. Seeing how BioWare is supposed to be listening to our feedback, then every post counts even more, since there's no electoral college to bundle them up (hopefully). Just using an American system example, dunno if you're from the US or not.

[sagefic]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

So you want a bad boy in the group and I assume preferably human.  You would have liked to have seen Kaiden introduced in a cutscene using his biotics in ME1.  If your LI preferance is humans, then yeah you don't have much to work with.  Personally I don't have much interest with any of the female LI's of ME2.  That is just me though.  I am not sure what Bioware was thinking when they did femshep and Jacob's dialog.  Of course some girls like it, but that is a big complaint and it is understandable.  I can understand you wanting a bad boy and wanting to see the male LI's kick a little ass in a cutscene or two.

Well, let me be clearer: I appreciate the LIs on two levels: the coherence of the story and my personal warm fuzzies for a particular character and story. for the first, i will argue for "this worked better or not" - for the second - it's what i like and i make no apologies for that. but you can't really have a discussion about what people like. 

so I think the LIs can be a good story, but not give warm fuzzies. example, i am a fan of the kaiden. while ME2 had virtually no warm fuzzy moments for me (maybe shep looking longingly at the photograph) i really appreciated the horizons encounter as good storytelling and good writing. another example: the tali romance was very well written. in ME1 i thought it was so bizzare how she was not a romance, given that her intro scene had all the classic "this is your leading lady here" cues: curvaceous girl in distress, being hit on by nasty guy, starts to fight free just as hero shows up to help. so i am not surprised that there is a tali following given that they sent those cues right from the start (whether they meant to or not).

but,i'm digressing. no, *I* don't want the bad boy. not my personal taste. but from a storytelling point of view, a bad boy to tempt femshep away from kaiden would have made for good storytelling. so it's just weird that they squandered that opportunity.

Modifié par sagequeen, 06 avril 2010 - 01:01 .

[Collider]

Sagequeen has a bit of a point. Most female players would probably like if their LI showed some sort of interest before the romance actually or official starts. Mass Effect 2 basically had, except for some minor things, all dialogue and scenes the same for both genders up until the romance starts. Mass Effect 1 had better pacing.

[*Di]

Collider wrote...

Sagequeen has a bit of a point. Most female players would probably like if their LI showed some sort of interest before the romance actually or official starts. Mass Effect 2 basically had, except for some minor things, all dialogue and scenes the same for both genders up until the romance starts. Mass Effect 1 had better pacing.

Absolutely agree.  ME1 romances, especially with Kaidan, were very well paced, adult instead of adolescent (I'm talking about you, Jacob, and you, sex-crazed sl*t FemShep).  The romance with Kaidan was built on interest, followed by increased mutual respect, increasing attraction, deep friendship and finally love. 

The ME2 romances (that I've seen on YouTube) are rushed, somewhat juvenile, clearly are based only on sexual need, without the respect or love expressed.  Not that there aren't some touching lines in the Thane/Garrus romance, but it is either "blowing off steam" or apparently sympathy sex.  And the Jacob romance is just awful.  He behaves like a jerk stud-muffin and FemShep comes on like a totally adolescent trollop every time she talks to the guy.  Cringe worthy.
Seriously, I'd rather have one really well-developed, well-written, well-crafted romance option than three tacky, rushed, poorly-written ones.  ME1 gave me that.  ME2 did not.

 

[kglaser]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

mundus66 wrote...

While i can agree to some extent that the female romances are kinda lame. From your thread you make it sound like ME1 had better romances, Kaiden and a lesbian romance?
Sure for us males lesbian romance might be better. But from a female perspective shouldn't ME2 have better romances? However if you think that both ME1 and 2 has lamer romances for girls i'm with you there. But imo ME2 was actually a step up from ME1. And Kaiden is the whiniest punk in the galaxy i had him killed every time, even on my female characters.

Not all guys drool over F/F.  Speak for yourself please.

Good to hear...although, as a female who has listened to her share of men talking about such things, you might be a "rara avis in terris".