535 réponses à ce sujet

[kglaser]

"Sexy" and "handsome" are two COMPLETELY different things for me.

Men, take note.

[Xaijin]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

@Xaijin
Are you just being argumentative?

I'm not talking about homosexuality specifically.  That's been around as long as life has been around.

No, I'm just pointing out EPIC LOGIC FAILS.

Having an opinion is recommended. Having an opinion based on factual evidence other than EWW ICKY ME NO LIKE is better.

Unless you simply say EWW ICKY ME NO LIKE and leave it at that.

Modifié par Xaijin, 06 avril 2010 - 03:28 .

[Collider]

Xaijin wrote...

Of course, I'm ignoring societies that have third sexes (India, several countries in Africa) And western culture is DIRECTLY based on Greek and Roman laws and concepts. You're picking at straws.
  It's been around FOREVER. It's super common in the animal kingdom, and it'll be around tomorrow. Roman Law made homosexuality bad when? When who adopted what? Conveniently on his deathbed?

LOL you're overreacting, saying I'm picking at straws. I never even disagreed with you. Of course homosexuality has been around for ever. I thought the discussion was over how long it's been tolerated.

[Xaijin]

Probably ranges around both, that kinda how things work here.

As for topic:
I think the issue people have somewhat skated around is using it as a "fad" for notoriety, and of course, the commercialization of it, which is frankly skewed as hell.

As for tolerance, I think you're generalizing. It's been in accepted places other than [WESTERN CULTURE] for... forever. Progression = polarization, which is actually neither here nor there.

There probably is a rational scheme of acceptance or tolerance based on commonality or finding a middle ground.... which is apparently not here.

Modifié par Xaijin, 06 avril 2010 - 04:25 .

[MarginalBeast]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

At least, that's how I feel about the romances in ME1. ME2 is a bit more clear on how where to get the relationship started, and when to break it off early without being a total jerk when you decide you don't want to do it anymore (Garrus fully agreed on breaking up and suggested he and Shepard go blow up stuff instead. WIN!).

In ME1, Shepard can turn down Kaiden and Liara without sounding like a jerk at all. They take it pretty well, too.

[Collider]

In ME1 apparently being nice to Ashley starts the romance. I hated getting locked in like that.

[Never]

MarginalBeast wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

At least, that's how I feel about the romances in ME1. ME2 is a bit more clear on how where to get the relationship started, and when to break it off early without being a total jerk when you decide you don't want to do it anymore (Garrus fully agreed on breaking up and suggested he and Shepard go blow up stuff instead. WIN!).

In ME1, Shepard can turn down Kaiden and Liara without sounding like a jerk at all. They take it pretty well, too.

Liara is so cute when you turn her down.  Almost makes me regret it.  I've never been able to turn down Kaidan

[sagefic]

Collider wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

I think it's a good switch that while Kaiden and Liara pursue you in the first game, you need to pursue others in the second game, especially considering how common it is for people to have already been in a romance with one of the ME1 characters.  And I definitely didn't mind taking charge, especially considering how uncomfortable it made me feel to be forced to shoot one character or the other down in ME1.  Liara and Kaiden were both nice people, and it was easy to lead them on. 

huh. that's a good point.

i guess because shep is the captain (effectively), i find it very weird to have him/her come on so strongly to a crew member. reeks of "let's hit on the intern" or something. except with my renegade male shep- seemed he'd hit on miranda just to be that guy - creepy smile and all.

yes. that was the picture i was looking for. i'd thank you, but i'm screaming a little on the inside.

kaimanaMM wrote...

The on-screen line is, "I want you, Thane."

That is not what comes out of Shepard's mouth.  What Shepard says is not at all tactless or crass and is actually quite appropriate for the conversation as well as the possible / potential feelings between her and Thane.   ...

I think it's a huge improvement to have Shepard in the driver's seat when it comes to relationships this time around.  I much prefer that to the ninja romances of ME1 or having to be a total a--hat to Kaidan to get him to leave me alone. 

point taken, kaimana - and lucky13, too. i agree, ME1 romances were a little ninja - good way of putting it. personally, after my 1st playthrough, i expected the romance and played my shep into it in a way that felt like a natural progression of a really meaningful friendship turning relationship. i didn't get any comments from liara until you hit the "kaiden's special to you, isn't he?" so i was pleased with how it turned out. it does make one wish for a "let them down easy" line. - i wish i'd had one for tali - sigh.


I think the way i see a good VG romance subplot is this: it's not unlike a TV series. you have the cast of characters, you have the situation. then the player gets to decide which of the myriad cast the main character ends up with. was watching buffy season 1 last night and to me everything about how angel shows up says "this is the hot leading guy", but you can also read xander as "this is the leading guy, too, if only buffy will give him a break" right from the beginning.

for me the question is not "is this character more awesome?" some like garrus, some like thane, some like kaiden. it's more a question of "is the romance well set up?" and "can i have shep be in this relationship without feeling like doing so totally compromises everything in his/her character?"

i played a tough renegade soldier femshep and kaiden felt like a puppy dog. it then annoyed me that there was no character that would have "fit" her for a romance. but my paragon shep and kaiden were a perfect fit, given the way i played it. ME2 does a heck of a lot better, i grant you, but i still sort of wish they'd had another appealing human. aliens are awesome, but i don't find them appealing on a sexual level. i know, i know, call me racist. but scales and bone plates just don't do it for me. i prefer...well, that could get dirty real quick. let's just say some of us girls can appreciate thane's deep philosophizing and garrus' bada**ness and still want our fantasy romance to be end up with a guy you can appreciate on, um, many levels...

and i'm gonna stop there....

[Masticetobbacco]

Collider wrote...

In ME1 apparently being nice to Ashley starts the romance. I hated getting locked in like that.

being nice = rommance
being rude = dislike
being neutral = boring

only solution is to kill her on vimire

[Peppard]

sagequeen wrote...

for me the question is not "is this character more awesome?" some like garrus, some like thane, some like kaiden. it's more a question of "is the romance well set up?" and "can i have shep be in this relationship without feeling like doing so totally compromises everything in his/her character?"

i played a tough renegade soldier femshep and kaiden felt like a puppy dog. it then annoyed me that there was no character that would have "fit" her for a romance. but my paragon shep and kaiden were a perfect fit, given the way i played it. ME2 does a heck of a lot better, i grant you, but i still sort of wish they'd had another appealing human. aliens are awesome, but i don't find them appealing on a sexual level. i know, i know, call me racist. but scales and bone plates just don't do it for me. i prefer...well, that could get dirty real quick. let's just say some of us girls can appreciate thane's deep philosophizing and garrus' bada**ness and still want our fantasy romance to be end up with a guy you can appreciate on, um, many levels...

and i'm gonna stop there....

  I agree with Sagequeen that its not as fun a fantasy (for me anyway) to have a romantic subplot that involves something so completely alien that it doesn't have any of the "masculine" characteristics that make men attractive.  Looks aren't everything, but  really, I wouldn't be pushing for a  Volus,  or Elcor LI myself.    There are some people who might, for various reasons, including just wanting a good story that has as little in common with real life as possible or the comedic value.

Sometimes as with Garrus,  just   having a good voice actor /writing can add so much personality,  that we can overlook  some of the appearance.   Heck, we can  anthropomorphize characters  to the point that  I've seen people joking about Legion having a crush on Edi or Shepard, or about Joker having a crush on Edi.   

 BW goes further than a lot of other developers, and the content they gave us was more enjoyable then you might think from the  first flirt on the dialog wheel.    Still, at some point the developers decided to give female shep 2 aliens, and male shep 1 alien, who's in a suit so a lot of the alieness is covered up.   They also decided to keep the Kelly light romance, and cut off Ken.   They have lots of "sexy"  female quest NPCS,  like Shiala or Gianni, but for males its clods like Conrad Verner or Harkin.    Then, there's the fact that they use the same script for male and female shep for  a lot of dialog outside the romance plots, even if sometimes it creates an awkward moment IN a romance plot.  (Like  Jacob's comments about Miranda).    So given all this, I could see how someone might feel like maybe BW didn't put enough effort into female romance options, especially if you didn't pursue the plot any further. It would just fit with the overall male-slant to the game, from costume design, camera angles, gentlemen's clubs, consorts and all that.   They actually did do a better job of making characters that could appeal to women  though then you'd think for all that stuff being in the same game.

[sagefic]

^^ this, seconded.

in all fairness to BW, they have done a fabulous job of pioneering games that appeal to women. i remember kings quest 4, perils of rosella (by which i am totally dating myself) as a kid and thinking it was SO COOL to have a female avatar. fast forward to NWN1 and i had a female avatar who had people talking to her like she was a woman AND a (Sorta) romance with wazziz face the spymaster. i thought i'd died and gone to geek-girl heaven. i often thought i was the ONLY girl gamer i knew, until i discovered this bioware community. weeee!

and bioware has done a lot for people not following the standard "i like girls in tight suits" line. props for the zevran romance. i admire BW for having the guts to go for it. and may i say, i LOVED ashley? she is not your typical romance girl. she's a very tough girl, abrasive, difficult, and yet very, very realistic. i admire BW for running these kinds of characters.

but, there's still room for improvement, i think. the majority of gamers are guys, the majority of gamer culture still appeals to guys. that's a given. but if I can patiently sit through scenes of Morrigan looking steamy or Miranda looking...whatever... and not feel my avatar's awesomeness as the coolest girl around is threatened, then i don't see why they can't make the male characters less "this is your buddy - oh, and i guess if you're a girlchar you can bang him" and more "Enter the HAWT leading man. behold!"

i actually ranted a bit about this in the DAO forum - got a post back from the mr. gaider (gah! exciting and yet, in a way, embarassing) about how come the leading men can never be more - leading man like? his response was that such a tactic would take away from the narrative as the lead char would be upstaged by the PC.

to that i did, and still, humbly submit i think that should be possible to have a stronger leading man. i think the REAL culprit is traditional storyline expectations. in most stories, movies, etc., you can have the hot leading lady, and yet she is NOT the main character, really. the leading man is. substitute PC for leading man and there you go. you typically have your leading man, leading lady, and the best friend/sidekick.

i think the problem is that a lot of these stories feel like they are taking that formula, but trying to turn the sidekick INTO the female romance option - without reworking the narrative much. thus th LI men seem weak, odd, whatever. you get kaiden introduced as sitting arguing with joker, or jacob cowering from 3 mechs after you dropped about 20 on your way to him. that's a fine set-up for the "buddy", but not for your leading man.

and i have full faith that stories CAN be written with the female PC in the place traditionally reserved for the leading man. you just have to swap up the narrative a little. just show off the dude as if he's leading man material - NOT that he's going to take over the story, just that he's cool. the intro for garrus in ME2 is classic leading man intro material. there should be more of this for the male chars - just more stuff where they get to be awesome. but for some reason they don't do this with the human men - again, i presume, because it would take away from their "sidekick" nature and make them competetors for the leading man role.

but if that's so, then just put that stuff in only for the female PC.  remember how if you walk up to kaiden as femshep you get the mini-cutscene of her walking up slowly? or the dialog after eden prime where you can talk to kaiden only ifyou're femshep? if you had just a few scenes that played slightly differently if you're a female avatar - a shot of the guy looks hot, for example, i think that would go a long way to making the female romances feel more like they were fully intentional, and not just that the female PC accidentally stepped into some male fantasy and is trying to find her way around.

Modifié par sagequeen, 06 avril 2010 - 04:53 .

[Xaijin]

Anderson is hella sexy, so was Lee. And Wrex. and Kal.

Sounds like someone is looking for something exact. without giving ANY specifications and expecting BW to get it EXACTLY right.. which in any terms is simply auto-epic fail.

How about some exact Specs? Like from the ground up. I see lots of ARRR POR QUE without any substantive solutions, or even a suggestion for what this super lothario should be.

So let's see a character from the ground up that somehow meets all those expectations.

Modifié par Xaijin, 06 avril 2010 - 04:53 .

[sagefic]

Xaijin wrote...

Anderson is hella sexy, so was Lee. And Wrex. and Kal.

Sounds like someone is looking for something exact. without giving ANY specifications and expecting BW to get it EXACTLY right.. which in any terms is simply auto-epic fail.

How about some exact Specs? Like from the ground up. I see lots of ARRR POR QUE without any substantive solutions, or even a suggestion for what this super lothario should be.

So let's see a character from the ground up that somehow meets all those expectations.

I'm not sure if you were talking to me or people in general on this thread. but let me be clearer: I have no specs on characters.

that's not what i'm arguing for. i'm not saying "put edward cullen in ME3" (ugh, shoot me for even saying that)  i'm saying, "Please, BW, write whatever characters you like. Just write it FOR the women a little more." I only mention that the following are narrative devices that help further along a plot that i *think* is more appealing to women. (And on this i may be wrong, but...)

1. There needs to be a little variety. Some girls dig a bad boy. Some like the nice guy. Having more than 1 option is necessary. there are many male character "types" - having at least 2 flavors is good.

2. Having more than 1 option also allows for the romance to be furthered by the 2 guys both being interested - even if they play that they aren't. I don't think Bishop and Casavir would have been terribly popular if they had not BOTH been there. Part of the fun for many women (see the forums if you don't believe me) was the fact that you could string them both along or tell one to take a hike.

3. The fem PC should be able to roleplay the romances without it feeling TOO out of character.  okay, that's tricky, i grant you. this will probably play differently based on the LI in question. some may pursue you, some may not - this is where variety is good. but ninja romances are clearly not liked (What are you doing in my bedroom?), but neither is it fun when the only option is to come on desperately. also, it's nice to be able to say no nicely as well as rudely. 

4. Hawtness is good. women want a little fan service, too. again, check forums if you don't believe me. attractive character models is good. and we do pay attention to clothes. jacob's penguin suit is not attractive. i happen to like kaiden IN SPITE of his bizarre haircut. please note.

5. set-up, please. so many times in BW romances, i can see the female LI a mile away (except tali, thought she was an LI in me1), but the male LI i'm like...whoa, wait, HE's the love interest? again, there are familiar cues - camera angles, dialog, etc. that say "THIS is the hottie"  now, granted, some people will always choose elsewhere. but if you bothered to make them a LI, why not show so when they appear?

6. romantic tension is a good thing - in a story. irl, it sucks. but in a story, it's golden. bring it on. and then a little more, please.

7. some sense of time passing. you could write romantic dialog to the nth degree and people would still find it was too little. i accept that the games are more impressionism than realism. this is why i liked the ME1 romances that took multiple times to talking to progress. it felt *more* like you were getting to know someone over the course of several months and then the relationship developed than other games. KOTOR probably had it best, truly. but then, they only had 1 LI to worry about. still, i was stunned by how long the dialog was (played it just a year ago for the first time). you and the LI go through so many phases of a relationship - wary trust, distrust, interest, distrust, etc., etc. there was no kiss even, but it fell well written. i realize that there is a trade off with many options vs. drawn out options, but some LIs played better than others. tali and garrus, for example, are not my taste, but the romances were well written and genuinely felt like time had passed and real releationships could form in that time.

8. don't just make the "sidekick" man and afterthought male LI. see above post.

9. is too much. eh, i'm done for now. but those are some specs. 

i'm not going to say "i want a tall dark handsome libra with glasses and a penchant for rugby." BW comes up with great characters, constantly revisiting archtypes and redefining them. i love that. i would just also love it if the storytelling - when playing a female PC - set up the male LIs a little better.

Modifié par sagequeen, 06 avril 2010 - 05:32 .

[Ashwraith]

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

Alan Rickman has a jowly dog face. Doesn't stop him from being sexy as hell.

My friend, truer words were never spoken. *sage nod*

Personally, I've resigned myself to exploring the LI options with side characters, simply out of curiosity rather than any personal interest. (My 'canon' Shep, on the other hand, remains completely single.)
Don't get me wrong, I like my crew. I like them very much. It's just that I don't view any of them as relationship material.

This can make things... awkward, particularly when you'd like to be friends but scripting interprets everything as "OMG she is so totally into me". Happened with Liara and Kaidan in ME1. Same thing with Jacob in ME2.
As I've said before on numerous occasion, this sort of thing has made it so that I'm pretty much paranoid of even saying 'hi' to crewmates on the off chance they'll think it's an invitation for nookie.
Whereas the characters I'd actually be interested in romance remain frustratingly out of reach.
This is, however, only to be expected, as I have... admittedly unusual taste in men. I have no expectations that they will ever become romanceable, and -in fact- this is perfectly all right with me.
I am content to read between the lines.

Modifié par Ashwraith, 06 avril 2010 - 06:20 .

[Xaijin]

And your problem becomes rather clear:

1. You're on a very specific deadline, to get a character through the pipline, the character has to have both purpose and gameplay/thematc value

see: Thane.

2. Character design has to be symmetric with game play goals, or you end up with Jacob, which is precisely why you don't let focus groups determine content. Tali and Garrus were modified to suit user requests, but not at the expense of their core attributes. Not as easy as you think.

3. All of the above that you've set out as criteria doesn't cover the PURPOSE of the character, just what he should do in your presence. That's only half of the equation, you've only got half a character with NO backstory that complements gameplay purposes.

4. Having arrived to pore over 2 and 3, as Character Design Lead, I'm immediately going to kick this one to the curb. There's no way I'm going to cut into outlay $$$ without a from the ground up template that covers every angle succinctly and in a manner I can implement in the deadline strictures.

5. Good news is I got Larry Fishburne, bad news is I have him for a day in a 9 hour block and then for two hours on callback the next day for clean up and fixing and revision/alternates and then he has somewhere to be. You better have all his dialog DOWN, with enough coverage for everything relating to two distinct outcomes and incidental environment commentary.

6. You haven't given me single visual cue, much less cues that DO NOT overlap with existing SMs and GNNPCs. I need a workup, I need a color profile, I need a silhouette workup, I need a glamour model, I need a real person to hire for both capture and template, I need non overlapping SM skills and a progression matrix; I need a two paragraph backstory that is both completely complete and covers both gameplay value and personal nuance for the VDL and VA.

7. You haven't even given me as much as Kelly needs, so I'll throw you a bone, He's half Castillian, half Moroccan, He's a book seller that use to work as an N7 until he tired of the bureaucracy and moved to the Citadel. Because I threw you a bone, I now expect character specific dialog that references what I gave you, and you better not make Larry sound like an ass, because I will come out of this office and find you.

8. I need romantic progression cues that don't overlap with anyone else, else there's no point in even starting this endeavor.

9. The clock is ticking....

10. Why are you still here?

Modifié par Xaijin, 06 avril 2010 - 06:44 .

[sliverofamoon]

Liso66 wrote...

This is mostly to Bioware.
.
I do not wish to stir anything up. Nor do I wish for it to ignite any flaming.

One of my very few complaints with Mass Effect 2, was the uneven romance options for male and female characters. While the male character gets a choice between three females, and two of them human. They also get better romance scenes.

Having said that. I came to a final conclusion. I am sad that it seems that the Bioware writers created the female romance options, not for female players. It is geared for the male players, playing female characters. All for kicks and giggles. Between the comments that Solis makes, and the scenes themselves. This could not have possibly been intended for the female player.

The male Shepard not only gets much better options, the romance itself is much more deep. "not that any of them are really all that deep" but the comparable is very unbalanced. The scenes are more steamy and sexy for the male character.

The female Shepard? Garrus, Thane, and Jacob.

First let me say, Garrus is a cool buddy. but a romance option? Maybe if my character was addicted to red sand and Garrus had her next fix. The romance scenes are sooo incredibly lame as well. Some cheesy dialog from Garrus with heads touching, then a fade screen?

Thane. A cool persona, but c'mon.. looks like the creature from the black lagoon and dieing.. All to get some drama about dieing, kiss, then fade screen.

I have no clue about Jacob as he is so boring, I would never bother.

Bioware. You have more female players than I think you realize. We are typically less vocal in the community.. Well. aside from players like me. We keep hearing about game companies wanting to tap into the female demographic?  We are already here. But joke romances like this, that clearly display an unfair balance, are not the way to go..

I still loved the game none the less. Though. I think all my runs will be with Kaidian and or Ashley (faithful), as they did not seem to be a total mockery for the female player choices.

Regards

Female gamer...  

Pretty much why I play male-sheps almost exclusively in ME2. Love the Tali, and Jack romances. Very well done, and emotionally involving.

[RiouHotaru]

Actually, I'd argue that Jacob had all the ability to be a good romance. He starts off wanting to take thing slow, "One-nighting the commander is the quickest way to get airlocked." He even takes you aside to allow Shepard the opportunity to let out some of her own feelings about the situation, showing that even stoic Commander Shepard can be vulnerable (easily some of the BEST DIALOGUE IN-GAME!)...unfortunately FemShep hits on Jacob with all the subtlety of a train wreck.



Honestly, it's NOT Jacob's fault. If you watch the ENTIRE romance, you notice that Jacob changes his behavior because Shepard acts incredibly coy and flirtatious. She's just a few steps away from demanding they bang like animals on the armory table. So the final sequence and his "The priiiiize" line is a result of him catering to Shepard's wiles. Entirely NOT his fault. Sadly, his derails his character. I didn't want to romance him not because I didn't like him, but because Shepard ruins him.



Thane...I don't know. He was portrayed as incredibly badass, but with a strong system of beliefs and morals that he doesn't compromise on. He's quite the gentleman, polite, understanding, courteous even to complete monsters. Dresses stylishly...and oh yeah, dead wife, estranged son, and just over a year left to live.



Wait what?! Any one of those three issues, if used seperately, could've been something to work on, but all three used in combination? I didn't romance Thane because I didn't like him, I didn't romance him because I didn't want to end up wanting to kill myself because his backstory depressed me, and romancing him felt like me taking pity on him. Also, Bioware's dialogue option of "I want you Thane" that comes up was HORRIBLY timed. It occurs just after talking about his dead wife. Luckily, those words are NOT what Shepard says (What she says is actually pretty touching) but the fact Bioware chose those particular words as the lead-in? Horrible.



Garrus...admittedly, by looking at my sig, I am incredibly biased in Garrus's favor. But his romance came off as easily the best of the three. Now, if you don't think Garrus is a good option because you don't find him attractive, that's one thing, and that's perfectly okay. But cheesy dialogue and the fade-to-black? How is this bad? The dialogue is cheesy because Garrus has never considered a romantic relationship, let alone one with his commanding officer, let alone one with a woman of another species. He's fumbling around in the dark (quite cutely I might add). Also, the fade-to-black is incredibly romantic for me. You didn't need them noming each other's faces to know they slept together (and yes, despite the fact it's never shown, they DID sleep together) and that they're close to each other. We don't need graphic visualizations.



Now, I will admit, I'm a male gamer...but I'm also gay, so I'm as partial to the options as you are.

[EliteZev]

I'm a man, and Thane is HOT.

[siltsonata]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Actually, I'd argue that Jacob had all the ability to be a good romance. He starts off wanting to take thing slow, "One-nighting the commander is the quickest way to get airlocked." He even takes you aside to allow Shepard the opportunity to let out some of her own feelings about the situation, showing that even stoic Commander Shepard can be vulnerable (easily some of the BEST DIALOGUE IN-GAME!)...unfortunately FemShep hits on Jacob with all the subtlety of a train wreck.

Honestly, it's NOT Jacob's fault. If you watch the ENTIRE romance, you notice that Jacob changes his behavior because Shepard acts incredibly coy and flirtatious. She's just a few steps away from demanding they bang like animals on the armory table. So the final sequence and his "The priiiiize" line is a result of him catering to Shepard's wiles. Entirely NOT his fault. Sadly, his derails his character. I didn't want to romance him not because I didn't like him, but because Shepard ruins him.

Jacob
I agree with this for the most part, because I like Jacob.  I still like him as a character.  Some people see the romance on youtube and it ruins him for them because they feel like "WOW he's just a cheap frat boy trying to get Sheapard into bed."  No, you're right:  He's just going off of what's been given to him.


That being said, I still wouldn't romance him because in the end that kind of dialogue just isn't appealing to me overall.  So Jacob was probaby poorly handled, but I feel like the intent was there:  Bioware made that romance for women (C'mon, ABS!!!) but something was lost in the execution.

Thane
Thane was created to be a female love interest.  Whether or not you think they succeeded is your opinion (and the OP has stated that it is such so I'm not attacking her here...if she's even still reading this.  This thread has been to hell and back and I loved every minute of it.)  But you can't accuse Bioware of not writing the romance for women when they created an entire character specifically for us female gamers.  Now personally I've never been able to get into Thane as an LI, but granted I'm horribly biased since I've been romancing Garrus in my mind since my very first ME1 Playthrough.

Which brings me to...

Garrus
Garrus was made an LI by fan demand, which makes him a fanservice by definition. A wonderful glorious fanservice, our God is an awesome god, offer sacrificial virgins to Bioware, etc, no I am not crazy.  If he's not to your tastes that's perfectly fine but realize that the very reason that he's an LI in ME2 is because to A LOT OF FEMALE GAMERS, HE WAS.  Bioware was like, "Welp, the laydeez demand it.  We like our fans.  Why not?" And in comes Garrus the LI.  

I was practically blown away by the amount of choices I was presented with in ME2, three romances (yes, all three) that I was very eager to try.  (In the end I've only ever romanced Garrus, but that's because I'm a raging fangirl.  I still rather like Thane's romance.)  There's a reason that I get confused when people talk about "cheating" on your ME1 LI; I went through every playthrough with no romance because I didn't like either of them, and while I still enjoyed the hell out of the game I felt like the game was more Male-oriented since Males had two Heterosexual choices and females only had one plus Liara.  Liara would be great if she's appealing to you, but she wasn't for me, which left me with two options: Kaidan or nothing. I picked nothing.

Then ME2 came along and I was like, "THREE?!  OH BIOWARE.  TAKE ME RIGHT HERE."

Anyway, I feel like Bioware put a tremendous amount of effort into the female LIs this time around, especially in comparison to ME1.  Just because they didn't appeal to you doesn't mean that Bioware didn't do their best to cater to female gamers, and in the end they succeeded in making a lot of us very happy.

Oh, and super OT

T3hMerc wrote...

www.fanfiction.net/s/5744974/1/If_You_Need_Me 
Hey, this is a proper take on the Garrus relationship. Take note.

I've never really liked If You Need Me.  Overprotective!Garrus is a huge turnoff.  I like in-game Garrus much more. 

[sagefic]

Xaijin wrote...

And your problem becomes rather clear:

1. You're on a very specific deadline, to get a character through the pipline, the character has to have both purpose and gameplay/thematc value

see: Thane.

understood. i am fully aware of this.

Xaijin wrote...

2. Character design has to be symmetric with game play goals, or you end up with Jacob, which is precisely why you don't let focus groups determine content. Tali and Garrus were modified to suit user requests, but not at the expense of their core attributes. Not as easy as you think.

k, still following you. i agree.

Xaijin wrote...

3. All of the above that you've set out as criteria doesn't cover the PURPOSE of the character, just what he should do in your presence. That's only half of the equation, you've only got half a character with NO backstory that complements gameplay purposes.

true. and again, i am not trying to say BW should make this char or that. they write fantastic characters. i would just like them to tweak how the male LIs interact with the female PC.

Xaijin wrote...

4. Having arrived to pore over 2 and 3, as Character Design Lead, I'm immediately going to kick this one to the curb. There's no way I'm going to cut into outlay $$$ without a from the ground up template that covers every angle succinctly and in a manner I can implement in the deadline strictures.

BW doesn't have time to make good-looking characters?? i think there's a misunderstanding here.

Xaijin wrote...

5. Good news is I got Larry Fishburne, bad news is I have him for a day in a 9 hour block and then for two hours on callback the next day for clean up and fixing and revision/alternates and then he has somewhere to be. You better have all his dialog DOWN, with enough coverage for everything relating to two distinct outcomes and incidental environment commentary.

6. You haven't given me single visual cue, much less cues that DO NOT overlap with existing SMs and GNNPCs. I need a workup, I need a color profile, I need a silhouette workup, I need a glamour model, I need a real person to hire for both capture and template, I need non overlapping SM skills and a progression matrix; I need a two paragraph backstory that is both completely complete and covers both gameplay value and personal nuance for the VDL and VA.

7. You haven't even given me as much as Kelly needs, so I'll throw you a bone, He's half Castillian, half Moroccan, He's a book seller that use to work as an N7 until he tired of the bureaucracy and moved to the Citadel. Because I threw you a bone, I now expect character specific dialog that references what I gave you, and you better not make Larry sound like an ass, because I will come out of this office and find you.

huh. okay, at this point, i didn't realize you were wanting a synopsis. i thought this was just a casual forum expressing dissatisfaction with the ME2 male LIs and discussing what about them failed to resonate. again, i think it is because

in much storytelling, you get your holy trinity of Lead, Lead's Love Interest of the opposite sex, Lead's Best Friend/Sidekick of the same sex. that's not the whole of it, granted, but what i'm saying is that the leading men typically feel like a "buddy" and come across with classic friend/sidekick cues instead of loveinterest of the opposite sex cues. the female LIs come across with classic love interest cues rather than best friend cues. THAT is the sum of my argument. (and how this trinity plays for people who are gay, i'm not sure. the whole cannon 'trinity' is heterosexually biases, to be sure.)

Xaijin wrote...

8. I need romantic progression cues that don't overlap with anyone else, else there's no point in even starting this endeavor.

9. The clock is ticking....

10. Why are you still here?

Riiiiiiiight. Well, we could have a discussion. Or you could say things like that that make it clear you just want to be right and dismiss any possibility of dialog. Whatever.

moving on.

RiouHotaru - i like your post. i agree with your assessment of the LIs.

Modifié par sagequeen, 06 avril 2010 - 07:33 .

[Xaijin]

Riiiiiiiight. Well, we could have a discussion. Or you could say things like that that make it clear you just want to be right and dismiss any possibility of dialog. Whatever.

Saying "make it better" without giving Logistical attributes and a clear achievable solution accomplishes rather little. You're asking BioWare to literally spend money to satisfy a user request.

Might wanna outlay why it's good idea other than "he should be dreamy and complex and do all the light work so I can feel properly appreciated" because that doesn't mean ANYTHING to the team pushing pixels around on the screen.

PIxels that costs money.

And has to be done when EA says so.

Modifié par Xaijin, 06 avril 2010 - 07:49 .

[Masticetobbacco]

back in the day of ME1, there were no girls on the internet. Bioware did something legendary by creating content especially for female gamers, (and homosexuals to a lesser extent). Creating content for female gamers? in a shooter?!!??!!!!?! BLASPHEMY.

just chill, Bioware is one of the very few companies that created content for female gamers without appealing to stereotypes (i.e Final Fantasy attracted hordes of fat, ugly, antisocial girls because they involved impossibly beautiful men and dreamy romantic situations). Mass effect 1 was a prototype for female gamers, Mass effect 2 improved on that, and true it was not perfect. As ridicolous as some lines were, Mass effect involved realistic rommances that some women actually liked.

Today there are very few girls on the internet (most of you are really men pretending to be women for attention, or undercover FBI agents). But I'm sure Bioware will have noted their weakness in rommance for female gamers, and will definitely improve on it in ME3. You just need to be patient, dont overwhelm them with requests, as they have more important things to work on: Gameplay, story, graphics, Tali (you know, what guys like ). Just be thankful Bioware creates content that is extremely hard to find in an RPG let alone a western RPG

Modifié par Masticetobbacco, 06 avril 2010 - 08:21 .