535 réponses à ce sujet

[Dasher10]

I liked all of the romance options in ME2 except for Jacob's, mostly since when you're trying to say you're not interested, femshep still comes across as sounding like she has a vibrator in her pants while Jacob sounds like he's reciprocating to what should be the wrong signals.



Shepard: Oh, Jacob! I just want to be friends! (heavy panting)



Jacob: That's fine, baby. (Has a giant erection that goes down to his knee)



Shepard: Uhh, Jacob, I'm think that you're a good friend but I'm just not interested in you. (shoves hand down pants)



Jacob: Oh yeah! That's fine, you're still the prize. Besides, Miranda is cooler than you even though I'll take what I can get. (Smiles constantly as he says all of this)



Shepard: I can't take it anymore! I'm in love with Kelly but I need you to (boshtet) me so hard in my (boshtet) with your hard (boshtet).



Jacob: Oh yeah. You are so the prize! (Normandy music switches to Bootsy Collins. Jacob gets a large sticky wet patch in his pants.



Kelly Chambers: Hi Shepard! What are you up to?



Shepard: I'm having a "just as friends" conversation with Mr. Taylor.



Jacob: Yeah. The prize and I are talking.



Kelly: Carry on then.

[Dasher10]

3 minutes later and it's at the bottom of the page. bump

[Raanz]

Xaijin wrote...

And your problem becomes rather clear:

1. You're on a very specific deadline, to get a character through the pipline, the character has to have both purpose and gameplay/thematc value

see: Thane.

2. Character design has to be symmetric with game play goals, or you end up with Jacob, which is precisely why you don't let focus groups determine content. Tali and Garrus were modified to suit user requests, but not at the expense of their core attributes. Not as easy as you think.

3. All of the above that you've set out as criteria doesn't cover the PURPOSE of the character, just what he should do in your presence. That's only half of the equation, you've only got half a character with NO backstory that complements gameplay purposes.

4. Having arrived to pore over 2 and 3, as Character Design Lead, I'm immediately going to kick this one to the curb. There's no way I'm going to cut into outlay $$$ without a from the ground up template that covers every angle succinctly and in a manner I can implement in the deadline strictures.

5. Good news is I got Larry Fishburne, bad news is I have him for a day in a 9 hour block and then for two hours on callback the next day for clean up and fixing and revision/alternates and then he has somewhere to be. You better have all his dialog DOWN, with enough coverage for everything relating to two distinct outcomes and incidental environment commentary.

6. You haven't given me single visual cue, much less cues that DO NOT overlap with existing SMs and GNNPCs. I need a workup, I need a color profile, I need a silhouette workup, I need a glamour model, I need a real person to hire for both capture and template, I need non overlapping SM skills and a progression matrix; I need a two paragraph backstory that is both completely complete and covers both gameplay value and personal nuance for the VDL and VA.

7. You haven't even given me as much as Kelly needs, so I'll throw you a bone, He's half Castillian, half Moroccan, He's a book seller that use to work as an N7 until he tired of the bureaucracy and moved to the Citadel. Because I threw you a bone, I now expect character specific dialog that references what I gave you, and you better not make Larry sound like an ass, because I will come out of this office and find you.

8. I need romantic progression cues that don't overlap with anyone else, else there's no point in even starting this endeavor.

9. The clock is ticking....

10. Why are you still here?

Good post, good points.

[Dasher10]

And nobody finds my post funny... sad

[Peppard]

Xaijin wrote...

And your problem becomes rather clear:

1. You're on a very specific deadline, to get a character through the pipline, the character has to have both purpose and gameplay/thematc value

see: Thane.

2. Character design has to be symmetric with game play goals, or you end up with Jacob, which is precisely why you don't let focus groups determine content. Tali and Garrus were modified to suit user requests, but not at the expense of their core attributes. Not as easy as you think.

3. All of the above that you've set out as criteria doesn't cover the PURPOSE of the character, just what he should do in your presence. That's only half of the equation, you've only got half a character with NO backstory that complements gameplay purposes.

4. Having arrived to pore over 2 and 3, as Character Design Lead, I'm immediately going to kick this one to the curb. There's no way I'm going to cut into outlay $$$ without a from the ground up template that covers every angle succinctly and in a manner I can implement in the deadline strictures.

5. Good news is I got Larry Fishburne, bad news is I have him for a day in a 9 hour block and then for two hours on callback the next day for clean up and fixing and revision/alternates and then he has somewhere to be. You better have all his dialog DOWN, with coverage two distinct outcomes and incidental environment commentary.

6. You haven't given me single visual cue, much less cues that DO NOT overlap with existing SMs and GNNPCs. I need a workup, I need a color profile, I need a silhouette workup, I need a glamour model, I need a real person to hire for both capture and template, I need non overlapping SM skills and a progression matrix I need a two paragraph backstory that is both complete and covers both gameplay value and personal nuance for the VDL and VA.

7. You haven't even given me as much as Kelly needs, so I'll throw you a bone, He's half Castillian, half Moroccan, He's a book seller that use to work as an N7 until he tired of the bureaucracy and moved to the Citadel. Because I threw you a bone, I now expect character specific dialog that references what I gave you, and you better not make Larry sound like an ass, because I will come out of this office and find you.

8. I need romantic progression cues that don't overlap with anyone else, else there's no point in even starting this endeavor.

9. The clock is ticking....

10. Why are you still here?

The only thing clear to me, after reading that, is that you have  problems  with the idea that some fans aren't  totally thrilled with the LI's.    You pushed Sagequeen to try to give some specific examples of what she might like better in an LI. In response, you then invent a kind of  role-play  as developer scenario where you evaluate her ideas not on their general concepts, but for some specific scenario you invented in your head of some random stage in the development process.   Well, if you're imagining and inventing things, you could make the result whatever you want.       Your "manager" seemed awfully motivated to make the writer give up on incorporating those off-the cuff generic suggestions, which were never written or intended to be full-fledged character proposals in the first place. So why did you write it that way?  Why even ask her in the first place? Was it just to shoot down her ideas  or because you really were curious what might, to her, have been more appealing for the male LI's?

Obviously (and I've said this before) game designers have constraints and can't always do everything they might initially want to do.  Things get cut, edited, and watered down.  They only have so much of a budget, and odds are, most of it will be spent on the things that they think will please the biggest part of their target audience.   All true, but none of it a reason for WHY BW cannot do better or even, should not try to do better within that budget.  You seem to be arguing they shouldn't even try.  Is that what you meant to say? 

Some people liked planet scanning and thermal clips, some people liked romancing Jacob.   For my part, I'd rather scan planets and pick up clips than romance Jacob.   I know 2 of f those game elements  are on the board for change in ME3.    It's not clear, whatever they intend to do with LI's in ME3, whether the developers have even thought that maybe there's something to 'fix" or improve with the LI's in general, the same way they've acknowledged thermal clips and scanning as issues.   I think I've seen a lot of people say they want more interaction, but for all we know, they'll think fans want the opposite, and just give us Zaeed- like levels of interaction.


 



 

[Tlazolteotl]

Oh, I'm sure they'll "fix" Jacob.

[Sad Dragon]

@Xaijin: Have to say, I'm with Peppard on this.

[kglaser]

Dasher10 wrote...

And nobody finds my post funny... sad

Actually, your post made me laugh so hard my chest hurt.  Well done

[Mallissin]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Oh, I'm sure they'll "fix" Jacob.

Snip snip?

[Dasher10]

kglaser wrote...

Dasher10 wrote...

And nobody finds my post funny... sad

Actually, your post made me laugh so hard my chest hurt.  Well done

Thanx XU

Modifié par Dasher10, 06 avril 2010 - 09:02 .

[Xaijin]

Peppard wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

And your problem becomes rather clear:

1. You're on a very specific deadline, to get a character through the pipline, the character has to have both purpose and gameplay/thematc value

see: Thane.

2. Character design has to be symmetric with game play goals, or you end up with Jacob, which is precisely why you don't let focus groups determine content. Tali and Garrus were modified to suit user requests, but not at the expense of their core attributes. Not as easy as you think.

3. All of the above that you've set out as criteria doesn't cover the PURPOSE of the character, just what he should do in your presence. That's only half of the equation, you've only got half a character with NO backstory that complements gameplay purposes.

4. Having arrived to pore over 2 and 3, as Character Design Lead, I'm immediately going to kick this one to the curb. There's no way I'm going to cut into outlay $$$ without a from the ground up template that covers every angle succinctly and in a manner I can implement in the deadline strictures.

5. Good news is I got Larry Fishburne, bad news is I have him for a day in a 9 hour block and then for two hours on callback the next day for clean up and fixing and revision/alternates and then he has somewhere to be. You better have all his dialog DOWN, with coverage two distinct outcomes and incidental environment commentary.

6. You haven't given me single visual cue, much less cues that DO NOT overlap with existing SMs and GNNPCs. I need a workup, I need a color profile, I need a silhouette workup, I need a glamour model, I need a real person to hire for both capture and template, I need non overlapping SM skills and a progression matrix I need a two paragraph backstory that is both complete and covers both gameplay value and personal nuance for the VDL and VA.

7. You haven't even given me as much as Kelly needs, so I'll throw you a bone, He's half Castillian, half Moroccan, He's a book seller that use to work as an N7 until he tired of the bureaucracy and moved to the Citadel. Because I threw you a bone, I now expect character specific dialog that references what I gave you, and you better not make Larry sound like an ass, because I will come out of this office and find you.

8. I need romantic progression cues that don't overlap with anyone else, else there's no point in even starting this endeavor.

9. The clock is ticking....

10. Why are you still here?

The only thing clear to me, after reading that, is that you have  problems  with the idea that some fans aren't  totally thrilled with the LI's.    You pushed Sagequeen to try to give some specific examples of what she might like better in an LI. In response, you then invent a kind of  role-play  as developer scenario where you evaluate her ideas not on their general concepts, but for some specific scenario you invented in your head of some random stage in the development process.   Well, if you're imagining and inventing things, you could make the result whatever you want.       Your "manager" seemed awfully motivated to make the writer give up on incorporating those off-the cuff generic suggestions, which were never written or intended to be full-fledged character proposals in the first place. So why did you write it that way?  Why even ask her in the first place? Was it just to shoot down her ideas  or because you really were curious what might, to her, have been more appealing for the male LI's?

Obviously (and I've said this before) game designers have constraints and can't always do everything they might initially want to do.  Things get cut, edited, and watered down.  They only have so much of a budget, and odds are, most of it will be spent on the things that they think will please the biggest part of their target audience.   All true, but none of it a reason for WHY BW cannot do better or even, should not try to do better within that budget.  You seem to be arguing they shouldn't even try.  Is that what you meant to say? 

Some people liked planet scanning and thermal clips, some people liked romancing Jacob.   For my part, I'd rather scan planets and pick up clips than romance Jacob.   I know 2 of f those game elements  are on the board for change in ME3.    It's not clear, whatever they intend to do with LI's in ME3, whether the developers have even thought that maybe there's something to 'fix" or improve with the LI's in general, the same way they've acknowledged thermal clips and scanning as issues.   I think I've seen a lot of people say they want more interaction, but for all we know, they'll think fans want the opposite, and just give us Zaeed- like levels of interaction.

I think we both know that's semantics.

1. BioWare's top brass have echoed that extended romance is both doable and desirable.

2. I am addressing several issues and points at once, I have no desire/time to make a post the size of the thread to delineate each individual concern, kinda like what Bw has to do for real, right now.

3. Of course it's simplified, we haven't covered modeling or workpath, legal clearance, overseas cultural/religious sensitivity, placement and relevance to story, editing for space/time/XBAWKS.

4. I haven't pushed anyone in particular, hence the lack of quoting. Some people, more than one, are attempting to cram right brain analog into left brain digital, which is logistical suicide past the design phase.

5. I'm accused of attempting to be "right" when I haven't even made an argument or statement about with the hell "right" is supposed to be, defensive much; see also: missing the point.

6. I fully support more slobbery scenes for everyone.

7. If the CDL assigns a project, they damn well expect it to be DONE, and done by the rules set out for characters so all the other folks who DEPEND on that project can GET TO WORK. If you come up and say I need a "this" in the game --> demographic polling + heavy user satisfaction index says so, you goddamn well better have a cogent and workflow ready concept, not "he's like you know all awesome and stuff and kisses real good..." because not only have you added work, you've cut into the part we laid out where Garrus and Wrex kick the **** out of a Reaper with nothing but sticks and a Varren Launcher that I already had laid out which everybody already likes.

"Romances should be like you know, all better and some junk"

k...

How do I make them better, and better so that EVERYBODY agrees they're now better, and all that money I spent was worth it for both me AND you, preferably in bullet points that are engine ready.

Modifié par Xaijin, 06 avril 2010 - 09:21 .

[Steel Dancer]

Mallissin wrote...

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Oh, I'm sure they'll "fix" Jacob.

Snip snip?

Blam blam.

[Sad Dragon]

Xaijin wrote...

How do I make them better, and better so that EVERYBODY agrees they're now better, and all that money I spent was worth it for both me AND you, preferably in bullet points that are engine ready.

Yeah cause thats how it normaly work when trying to find a solution to a problem. DO NEVER THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!!!

While i agree that there have been little indepth discussion of how to exacly make romances better - if they need to be made better - I think that limiting your vision is a moronic thing to do. Brainstorm and see what comes up. If an idea sticks see how it can be implemented and go from there.

We are also the community - we are not bound by any timeframes nor cash, so why limit ourselves to your narrow ideas about creativity while in a creative process. If we where making stuff however limitations is your friend but we are not doing so. So for the time being limitations are a hinderance and should not be viewed as your friend but as your enemy.

/TSD

[Xaijin]

We are also the community - we are not bound by any timeframes nor cash

*Ring ring*

"Hello?"

"Hi, this is unrealistic expectational disappointment calling; I'll be right over."

Modifié par Xaijin, 06 avril 2010 - 09:42 .

[Grunt420]

check this out



http://social.bioware.com/brc/1326930

[c0rps3f4ctory]

well lets see male shep gets smokin hot miranda, emo looking jack, or Tali... personally I don't like 2 out of the 3 as with femshep you get garrus thane and jacob, Jacob isn't that interesting at least to me but garrus and thane are the **** so I don't see the delema here lol. Now that legion... he has a fine ass right there XD jk

[sagefic]

thanks peppard, saddragon. forum posts leave room to be unclear - i am glad someone sees my point...a little...mebbe.

xajin, it was not my intention to be negative about BW. i LOVE their games. heck, i love the romance options in ME. i'm fully happy with how the kaiden story is progressing. i am simply observing that in general, stories have the elements of lead, lead's LI, and lead's best friend. there are classic cues that tell you that a character is supposed to be a LI or just a friend. i see that generally, the male LIs are set up - as in visual, storytelling cues, etc. as best friends. (excepting garrus and thane, i grant you. they got the leading man treatment, BUT they are aliens, and hence they can be awesome and still buddy material for the male shep. apparently human men cannot be sexy, because that would be gay and all). so male LIs start out buddyish the LI bit gets written in later. the females consistently get set up as LIs from the start.

and since you asked for specifics, here's a specific:

when you run into jacob, he's cowering from mechs. if jacob had been a female LI, it would have been more in keeping with BWs trends for her to pulled 3 mechs in a dramatic biotic fashion, nailed their heads, Blam, blam, blam. then she would have dropped behind cover and said, "Shepard? What the hell?" with a suitably i-am-a-sexy-badass edge to her voice. there would have been a sweep of her body at some point in the intial conversation. she would never have said "he needs a better woman than me." but jacob cowers, he tells shep that miranda needs a better man than him (a line that worked if you play a maleshep but leaves you wondering what you're bothering about if playing femshep) and is generally buddy material.

if jacob had an intro like that - biotic display, lingering closeup, it would have signaled him being LI material - and that would not have taken a tremendous amount of time or money more than was spent on him. there are many other things wrong with the jacob romance, but that's just a simple thing that would ahve gone a long way to "Fixing" him. though steel dancer's idea is perhaps the most merciful.

if that's not the kind of specific thing you're looking for, then i'm afraid i do not understanding what you want from me other than for me to leave the discussion. which, ya know, i can do. whatever.

Modifié par sagequeen, 06 avril 2010 - 10:01 .

[sagefic]

c0rps3f4ctory wrote...

Now that legion... he has a fine ass right there XD jk

 ftw

Thank you. That just made my day.

[Tooneyman]

Just being a troll for a minute. =) No good romances for the woman! woohoo. JK! =)

[Xaijin]

Nope, that's a specific start.



Doesn't cover other suggestions for totally new complete content LIs, but as stated I don't think anyone's even gotten that far.

[Collider]

But Thane arguably has the greatest intro in of all squad mates. I think the intro is far less important than the actual meat of the romance, though. But I would assume that may be more affecting for female players to have the male love interest introduced doing something he's really good at, something to draw the attention. That's not really that much to ask. You could conceivably in ME2 instead of Jacob cowering, his intro is him pulling doing badass biotic moves on the mechs.



But maybe you want to rethink the whole intro thing, sage. Maybe it is not so bad as you think.Thane and Garrus have pretty badass intros, that's 2 of the 4. I might also add that Alistair's intro is just him talking to some mage. Yet many women loved his romance. Granted, you are not "many" women but I don't necessarily think it is supremely important that the male LI does something aggressive or flashy. I do think that women would want to be pursued a bit more by the LIs, though. Not to the point of ninja romance, not by any means, though.

[enormousmoonboots]

Masticetobbacco wrote...

just chill, Bioware is one of the very few companies that created content for female gamers without appealing to stereotypes (i.e Final Fantasy attracted hordes of fat, ugly, antisocial girls because they involved impossibly beautiful men and dreamy romantic situations). Mass effect 1 was a prototype for female gamers, Mass effect 2 improved on that, and true it was not perfect. As ridicolous as some lines were, Mass effect involved realistic rommances that some women actually liked.

So you've only actually played two Final Fantasy games, right? The only FF games that heavily featured romance were 8 and 10; everything else is people projecting (there is like zero actual Cloud/Aeris or Tifa content in FF7, it's all implied or background).

[Collider]

I thought FFXIII has romance in it?
He is right about the impossibly beautiful men though. Notice I say beautiful due to how ambiguous some of them look like.

Modifié par Collider, 06 avril 2010 - 10:12 .

[Xaijin]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

Masticetobbacco wrote...

just chill, Bioware is one of the very few companies that created content for female gamers without appealing to stereotypes (i.e Final Fantasy attracted hordes of fat, ugly, antisocial girls because they involved impossibly beautiful men and dreamy romantic situations). Mass effect 1 was a prototype for female gamers, Mass effect 2 improved on that, and true it was not perfect. As ridicolous as some lines were, Mass effect involved realistic rommances that some women actually liked.

So you've only actually played two Final Fantasy games, right? The only FF games that heavily featured romance were 8 and 10; everything else is people projecting (there is like zero actual Cloud/Aeris or Tifa content in FF7, it's all implied or background).

*cough* VI. Celes Locke, like best romance ever: via fire and Giant purple Squid.

also, feeding troll; not reccomended, leaves troll smell on pets.

Modifié par Xaijin, 06 avril 2010 - 10:14 .

[Sad Dragon]

sagequeen wrote...

when you run into jacob, he's cowering from mechs. if jacob had been a female LI, it would have been more in keeping with BWs trends for her to pulled 3 mechs in a dramatic biotic fashion, nailed their heads, Blam, blam, blam. then she would have dropped behind cover and said, "Shepard? What the hell?" with a suitably i-am-a-sexy-badass edge to her voice. there would have been a sweep of her body at some point in the intial conversation. she would never have said "he needs a better woman than me." but jacob cowers, he tells shep that miranda needs a better man than him (a line that worked if you play a maleshep but leaves you wondering what you're bothering about if playing femshep) and is generally buddy material.

if jacob had an intro like that - biotic display, lingering closeup, it would have signaled him being LI material - and that would not have taken a tremendous amount of time or money more than was spent on him. there are many other things wrong with the jacob romance, but that's just a simple thing that would ahve gone a long way to "Fixing" him. though steel dancer's idea is perhaps the most merciful.

I for one like this turn in the discussion and i agree with your points about how Jacobs intro. But how about we ramp up the stakes? Jacob seem to be a lot of small problem in one romance. Though some might like the romance why is beyond me - so how about a little thought experiment maybe? How would the perfect romance with Jacob look - without changing his over all character?
Not sure if it will be fun or even have any value but just something to think about if nothing else

/TSD