70 réponses à ce sujet

[asaiasai]

I know this is been done to death but i have 13 complete plays now and i can not reconcile Allister's tantrum in the landsmeet. I just finished my Dwarf Noble origin recruited Loghain and the fact that Allister can not be reasoned with still bothers me. Well more to the point is Allister's romantic notions of what the GW are which flies directly in the face of reality is what bothers me, yes i am begining to beleive he is that stupid. This is more apparent depending on your origin as some are worse than others.

The GWs are a collection of thieves, cut throats, thugs and misfits, who have been cleansed of thier past indiscretions by surviving the joining. I have been tossing this around for months now in my head and today it finally occured to me what my problem with Allister's tantrum is, other than the obvious.

Davith is introduced by Duncan as a "fellow" if you talk to him Daveth is sparse on details, but he does tell you that Duncan saved him from something unpleasant. His skill set pegs him as a rogue so i think it is safe to guess he either stole something he should have left alone, or during the thievery someone wound up dead, so he probably has nothing but either a rope or a cell waiting for him. A city elf regardless of sex has commited a crime against thier lawful lord, morality aside, the CE broke the law and if you killed the Arls son i think it is safe to say that fun time in the dungeon is about to begin. By the law of the land you are a law breaker and an elf to boot. A dwarf noble origin you are accused of your brother's murder, for all intensive purposes i know i did not kill Tirin but that makes no difference, as far as the Deshirs are concerned you murdered your brother. As a mage you either assisted a blood mage while trying to escape the tower or betrayed a friend to the chantry. Neither case speaks volumes of praise for the new mage.

I can see his tantrum having merit if you play either the dalish or the human noble origins as there is no real crime to peg on either. The dalish your only misstep is lack of judgment, you should have ran and got the keeper, of course the game will not allow that option and it is not really much of one, but your truly innocent. The human noble is guilty of nothing more than being a Cousland and in the wrong place at the wrong time, again you are as innocent as a noble can be. These two origins do fit into the romantic notions of the GW that Allister has formed, skill, virtue and all that flowery stuff, but again Daveth's choice as a recruit should at least remind Allister that the GW are flexible in thier recruit choices. Skill matters, getting the job done matters, what crime or lack thereof does not.

This line of thought is further reinforced by Awakenings. Your recruits, again by the law of the land, are a pretty vile selection of individuals. Velena has been murdering merchants because as Nate put it she failed to check her facts. Nate is a Howe enough said there. Sereda (i think that is her name) is a member of the Legion who cut and ran during battle not a stellar recomendation there. Anders is an unrepentant blood mage who by conscription barely escapes the Chanty's justice. Oghren is an obnoxious drunk. Justice is about the only party member who is totally innocent but he is not really a warden either, he just inhabits the body of one so you do not even get to claim him as a tempering example.

When Allister yells in the Landsmeet that being a Warden is an honor, i do agree, but he is conviently forgetting that the wardens will accept help in any form against the blight. All who have skill are welcome provided of course they can survive the joining, and if i gathered it correctly even if you die during the joining you are still honored by the wardens. Loghain while from the perspective of the hunted is a vile human being, we do know that he was doing what he though best for Feraldin, it was just his methods sucked. He was selling elves into slavery to fund his armies, reprehensible fair enough, but it is not like he was linning his own pockets with the coin. Eamon was an obstruction, Loghain had no intention of killing Eamon just moving him out of the way until he could consolidate his position but by your timely intervention you can not even peg that on him.

Accepting Loghain into the wardens is in a lot of ways reinforcing the wardens position, to be able to turn your most hated enemy into an ally by the tip of a cup is an easy win. I do agree that this could be percieved as he wins by some folks. Are the wardens that weak that they needed to ride Loghains coat tails? Yes and because of Loghain's crimes at Ostagar, his prejudice against the wardens we will make you that which you hate the most, tried to destroy, that which you betrayed. Revenge or irony either works for me as to why i will about 75% of the time pick Loghain. I have used Loghain on several occasions once his talents are set up, he is geared up and his tactics are set he is every bit as good in the fight as Allister is. 

I know why the story will not support Allister and Loghain charging Denerim for the final battle, for me it seems that that combination would be way OP. Having selected Loghain to join the wardens my last play, take orders from me, i can not help but smile at the irony of it all. I am not even going to get into the questionably moral choices the PC GW makes during the game. Cheerleader or thug it is always first and foremost about stopping the blight, everything else is insignifigant in comparison. What you feel may temper your decisions but the only crime the GW can commit is fail to use every option and resource at your disposal to stop the blight, when the blight is ended then and only then is it the time for recriminations if any are in order.

Anyway sorry for the wall of text, and i thank those that read this for allowing me to finally get this out of my head so i can fill it up with some other triviality.

Asai

[OneBadAssMother]

Well, at least you used paragraphs. =)

[Sesshomaru47]

Being a warden is an honour to some. My Cousland girl was dragged off by her hair by Duncan and then was rude to everyone at camp when she got there. Yes, he enforced the rite of conscription on me, honour be stuffed. I was nice to Alistair though.

His argument is stupid to some degree, but would you want to fight along side the man who was responsible for the death of a man who looked on as a father? I think that's really what his objections are about, not the honour being a Warden.

[Sabriana]

Duncan and the GW were actually the first 'family' Alistair ever had. He never before felt at home anywhere, as he states.

That said, he does put Duncan on a pedestal, and he is suffering from survivor's guilt. He ascribes qualities to Duncan and the Grey Warden organization that are purely of his own imagination. Had Duncan lived, I'm sure Alistair would have been cured of the "holy, honorable Duncan" notion quickly enough.

I can understand his tantrum. I can even understand his leaving, not wanting to fight side-by-side with Loghain. What none of my PCs can forgive is his abandonment of Ferelden in its greatest hour of need. Disgust with a former friend/organization or not, he betrays the whole country when not showing up in the battle. I know that was done purposely by D. Gaider, because he wrote (somewhere) that Alistair will realize, and come to regret his betrayal of Ferelden.

Btw, Anders is not a blood-mage, he hates malificars. He is an apostate, though.

Modifié par Sabriana, 05 avril 2010 - 09:19 .

[Sesshomaru47]

He is if you make him.

[Big Mikey Mike]

asaiasai wrote...

Anders is an unrepentant blood mage who by conscription barely escapes
the Chanty's justice.

Asai

Just to be clear, he's not a Blood Mage.  He's an apostate who has escaped from the Circle 7 times, but he does not know Blood Magic unless you teach it to him.

He's actually a Spirit Healer when you meet him, which is pretty much the exact opposite of a Blood Mage.

That said, I completely agree with you; Alistair's outburst demonstrates that he doesn't understand what being a Grey Warden is all about.  If you ask me it's totally in keeping with his character though - he himself admits he has led a sheltered life, that he doesn't like taking the initiative, and he's only been in the Grey Wardens for 6 months.  Riordan refers to him as a new recruit alongside you.

He's still childish in many ways, and this is just another of them.  Still, it would have been nice if the option was there for him to develop at that point in time.  Maybe it would require that you hardened him already, and he might break off any romance he has with you and lose 50 points of approval, but the option to have Alistair accept the decision would have been a great little character moment for him.

Modifié par Big Mikey Mike, 05 avril 2010 - 09:53 .

[Sabriana]

Sesshomaru47 wrote...

He is if you make him.

Yeah, but he doesn't like it.
You can even make Wynne a blood-mage, and she says nothing at all.

[Tinnic]

This is like the world's most pointless discussion. People's minds are already made-up and nothing anyone can say will change that. So I am just going to say this once and put it out there and leave it at that.

1. People become Grey Wardens for a variety of different reasons. Some do it out of duty. Some because it is an escape (from execution, from the circle of magi) and some are simply conscripted against their will because they are needed. Those who join out of duty, because they want to not because they have to, would surely see the Grey Wardens differently then those who are conscripted.

Alistair joined out of his freewill. He wanted to be where he was. It was also the first (and probably the last time) that he got to choose what to do with his life. Everything before that, being sent to Redcliff, being turned over to the chantry, being made to train as a Templer, were all decisions that were made on his behalf. Indeed, many things after that, him being put in line for the throne, were also not his doing. Of course he is going to have a different view of Grey Wardens then those who join out of necessity. He isn't wrong either. He simply has a different perspective because of how he joined the order.

2. There are two kinds of Grey Wardens. The first kind believe that duty of the Grey Warden is to stop the Blight at all costs. The other believes that the duty of the Grey Warden is to defend man-kind against the Blight. Both are correct but depending on what kind of a Grey Warden you are, you will behave differently.

3. Alistair wanted justice for his fallen brethren. If Loghain had been in Alistair's place he probably would have behaved exactly the same way.

It is easy to chalk up Alistair's actions as "tantrum". But that is a swallow viewpoint. Devoid of any true understanding of Alistair's character, his history and disregards the magnitude of Loghain's crimes in Ostagar and afterwards! He sold elves to the Trevinta Imperium! He let Howe murder the Couslands! He let Howe take advantage of the unrest and become Arl of Denerim! He let Howe imprison innocent people! He sent a blood mage to poison Arl Eamon! Are we to forget all that?

Indeed, the moment it becomes clear that the choice is between Alistair and Loghain, there is no reason to let Loghain live! Were is possible to keep both Loghain and Alistair then recruiting Loghain would provide an extra Grey Warden, an extra body. But that is not the case. It's either or. At that point, Loghain's crimes > his usefulness. It's as simple as that.

But as I said, peoples minds are set in this matter. So really, I just wasted some time. Meh! Time to get back to work.

Modifié par Tinnic, 05 avril 2010 - 10:15 .

[CalJones]

This topic has been covered very recently in this thread: http://social.biowar...7/index/2023094

Also, David Gaider answers a lot of questions about Alistair: http://social.biowar...dex/650435&lf=8

Modifié par CalJones, 05 avril 2010 - 10:47 .

[BlueMew]

CalJones wrote...

This topic has been covered very recently in this thread: http://social.biowar...7/index/2023094

Also, David Gaider answers a lot of questions about Alistair: http://social.biowar...dex/650435&lf=8

Thanks for that. Not that I actually needed it, Alistair being my favourite character anyway, but it's a good and informative read. And a firm stand against macho idiots, which is also nice for a change.

Also, even without Alistair's personal feelings about Loghain, I always find that it helps when you look at how Loghain behaves at that moment. Sure, he knows how to die on his feet, but he has no regrets whatsoever. And a man with a mind like that, who has no problems with murder and betrayal will most likely continue to murder and betray. If you think you can use that to your advantage, ye-es, but it's not so strange to want to bloody well put him down as one would a mad mabari.

[Mlai00]

Duncan has no problems with murder and betrayal, either. Wow, he says "I'm sorry" before he unhesitatingly does it. Good manners ftw.



They're not so different. Just different mannerisms and different objectives.

[CalJones]

Whereas I find it goes against my own nature to execute a man who has surrendered in front of his own daughter, and it disgusts me when Alistair yells "kill him already!"

I understand Alistair's reasons, but I can't identify with them. At that point, I lose respect for him. The first time it happened, Alistair went from being my favourite character to one I despised. I think he's marvellously well written, as is Loghain - it's testament to them both that they have been central to some of the most passionate arguments on these boards.

[Mlai00]

To Alistair, Loghain is an unabashed evil villain. There is no need for politeness when dealing with one. (Unhardened) Alistair sees the world through a child's eyes.

I didn't exactly lose respect for him. Rather, my MHN PC was struck, blindsided, by this fatal flaw in his friend that he had never truly noticed. My PC realized that he was so busy being the noble leader and big hero, that he never truly understood his friend who had always stood in his shadow and did whatever he was told. It wasn't Alistair's fault, it was my PC's.

[BlueMew]

CalJones wrote...

Whereas I find it goes against my own nature to execute a man who has surrendered in front of his own daughter, and it disgusts me when Alistair yells "kill him already!"
I understand Alistair's reasons, but I can't identify with them. At that point, I lose respect for him. The first time it happened, Alistair went from being my favourite character to one I despised. I think he's marvellously well written, as is Loghain - it's testament to them both that they have been central to some of the most passionate arguments on these boards.

Mmyes. Well, I'd frown at 'Kill him already', but it's not nearly enough to make me despise or disrespect him. 

And while I think Duncan is indeed a ruthless man, to me there is still a difference between him and Loghain. No blind hero worship as Alistair does, which is not so strange since he's never had any family... but there is a streak of caring in Duncan that isn't there (or not enough) in Loghain. Even his own daughter has to keep silent or be imprisoned... very manly and brave to be sure, but also wrong.

[Sabriana]

My PC should have seen it coming as well, Mlai00. Very early on, there was the writing on the wall, so to speak:



PC: "We need to stop this blight!"

Alistair: "We NEED to bring Loghain to justice!"



That dialogue can be called up at Flemeth's hut after the PC and Alistair's rescue. It is unfortunate that there is no way to pursue that angle. If it had been possible, a whole lot of bad things could have been avoided.

My PCs don't lose respect when he walks out. They understand him, and they are very sad it came to this. He's a friend all through, and they hate losing his friendship. All (except my first PC) see the practical side of Loghain's recruitment, and they don't know that they didn't gain a GW, but that it was a trade off. Tbh, I kept waiting for Alistair to show up during the final battle as an uncontrollable NPC (like Teagan, Eamon, Irving, etc).

That was when they lost respect. Not the anger, not the walkout, but the abandonment of the country that needed him the most just then was the absolute reason they are thoroughly disappointed in him.

[Mirthadrond]

Alister is not a leader, especially if unhardened, nor is he a tactical thinker.



Recruiting Loghain is a smart move, both for ferelden and the GWs.

But then again our PCs are leaders and able to make these decisions.



Personally - I consider Loghains crimes too great. Yes, I'll recruit criminals and such forth, but seriously, Loghains crimes go WAY beyond redemption.

His death is his redemption.



From an RP standpoint, only my dwarf could see otherwise.



Human - Howe did the crime, but Loghain knew, so Loghain dies.

Elf - plenty of reasons to hate Loghain.

[CalJones]

Sabriana - I wish so too. I would have liked to have said something along the lines of "How do you figure that out? We were late lighting the beacon - perhaps he had no other choice."

Not debating whether Loghain was right or wrong to leave the field as we simply don't know, in game or otherwise. Butl, given that we can't see the state of the battlefield once the beacon is lit, it would have been nice if the character could have had the chance ot bring it up with Alistair.



BlueMew - It was Howe who imprisoned Anora. Whether he planned to kill her is debatable - I wouldn't put anything past Howe, though.

However, Loghain clearly cares about his daughter. If you talk to him about her, he speaks of her with great affection and clearly states that he did not at any time try to remove her from the throne. She might have said as much, but Anora was, at that point, playing all the angles and trying to win sympathy from the Warden. Loghain certainly wasn't planning on killing her.



Shale: It could have won its battle. It knows this, surely?

Loghain: I am to be subjected to the golem's ruminations, now? Charming.

Shale: It said that it did what it had to do in order to protect its nation, but that is not true, is it?

Loghain: I have no idea what you're talking about, golem.

Shale: It could have slain the woman, Anora. Then it would have been made king long before any challenge could have been made.

Loghain: You are speaking of my daughter, if you are not aware.

Shale: I am aware. It said, however, that it would do anything that it had to. But this was not true.

Loghain: I was unwilling to kill my own daughter. Yes, that is true. You think me weak for it?

Shale: I am uncertain. Had it known then what it knows now, would its decision have been different?

Loghain: (Sigh) No. No, I would not have killed her. Even had I known.

Shale: Then... I am content.

[Mirthadrond]

Were we really that late lighting the beacon?



Seems to me we arrived only slightly behind schedule.

Fighting my way to the top barely took more time than walking the distance.



Had things gone according to plan, it would have been lit only a few minutes after we got there without fighting the entire way.



Of course, I thought the plan was stupid, personally. No need for the beacon when a simple horn will do.

[Raiil]

While my character begins becoming disenfranchised with the Grey Wardens when Riordan intercedes with Loghain, she also agrees with Alistair. Loghain must die.



Without metagaming knowledge (basically going off my first playthrough), Loghain abandoned a lot of fundamentally good, brave people to die. Not just the other Wardens and his king, but there were civilians at Ostagar, and the king's men and the mages who were there. His actions led to the near destruction of the tower, and whilst my mage has no great love for the tower, again there are innocents. Redcliffe was almost destroyed, and the Arl almost killed. From speaking with the dwarves, she has a general idea what darkspawn can do to an entire frigging civilisation, and Loghain almost brought that on their head. From a personal standpoint, my PC cared a lot about Alistair and agreed with him that Loghain had to be brought to justice. I doubt any previously conscripted Warden who escaped punishment that way had the severity of his crimes.





Alistair leaving is the logical choice imho, because if Riordan had tried to push that matter and conscripted him right under her nose, she probably would have left too, and taken her treaties with her. She probably wouldn't abandon Ferelden but fight on her own terms, and tell Riordan what he can do with his conscript. :/

[Sabriana]

Mirthadrond wrote...

Were we really that late lighting the beacon?

Seems to me we arrived only slightly behind schedule.
Fighting my way to the top barely took more time than walking the distance.

Had things gone according to plan, it would have been lit only a few minutes after we got there without fighting the entire way.

Of course, I thought the plan was stupid, personally. No need for the beacon when a simple horn will do.

When my PC asked Duncan how much time they had, he told her "You have less than an hour".
In-game time != real time.

Consider that the PC and her allies have to fight literally from the front gates, upward to the top of the tower. that's a 3 tier court-yard and 4 stories up. Every which way they went, they had to face enemies, including emissaries and alphas.

[errant_knight]

I have zero problems with anything Alistair says at Landsmeet or his level of anger. I played it out once to see what all the fuss was about, and agreed with him entirely. One quick reload later and Loghain met the Maker.

[R-F]

Personally I sympathized with Alistair, sure he might have been a bit of a drama king (see what i did there) but I hated Loghain a lot by the end of the game. I only let him live once for the achievement, and unfortunately that file got uploaded to Awakening instead of my other one. I was pretty upset when the option to bring Loghain into the wardens popped up, but i shut Riordan down and then let Alistair finish the job, since he earned it.

[Daerog]

I understand Alistair's view, but he is still a fool. A fool who is a friend with all my wardens so far, but anyone who holds his/her revenge above everything else is a fool.

However, I have executed Loghain in every one of my playthroughs because Loghain is worse by putting his hatred/pride/paranoia above everything else.

[Addai]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

I understand Alistair's view, but he is still a fool. A fool who is a friend with all my wardens so far, but anyone who holds his/her revenge above everything else is a fool.
However, I have executed Loghain in every one of my playthroughs because Loghain is worse by putting his hatred/pride/paranoia above everything else.

*head twists with the irony*

[Suron]

well personally I think he's being immature and whatnot..and he's one of my favorite chars OTHER then his response to saving Loghain.



but if you think about it....at least to Alistair Duncan was like a father and the wardens a family he never had.....Asking him to spare Loghain would be similar to asking the Noble Human PC to spare Howe....and fight alongside him as a brother.



but from a logical standpoint it's infuriating...Alistair is a whiny, contradicting, little baby....He places the wardens so high...KNOWS and AGREES that they do "whatever is necessary"...to the point he doesn't bat an eyelash when Duncan MURDERS Jory.....and wants to argue that he was a "good man"...psh Duncan's a pretty cool character...but he's anything but honorable or a "good man." Read "The Calling" and you see more of what a tool Duncan really is.