70 réponses à ce sujet

[Merilsell]

I know this is been done to death but i have 13 complete plays now and i
can not reconcile Allister's tantrum in the landsmeet.

And you still can't write Alistair's name right?

However to the topic, which wants to run away upon handling so often it has been abused by now. People are using meta-game knowledge to judge Alistair's behavior or fail to understand his character in a whole and why he acts like that. Alistair doesn't know at this point to what a Grey Warden is needed when it comes to the archdemon, he doesn't know that using Loghain would be a grrrrreeeeeat master redemption plan the player for Loghain *can* have. He just sees the murder of the closest thing to family he __ever__ had and gooooes all Raaaaawr.

And rightfully so.

I think everything else is very, very good covered by Mr. Gaider himself.

[Raiil]

Suron wrote...

well personally I think he's being immature and whatnot..and he's one of my favorite chars OTHER then his response to saving Loghain.

but if you think about it....at least to Alistair Duncan was like a father and the wardens a family he never had.....Asking him to spare Loghain would be similar to asking the Noble Human PC to spare Howe....and fight alongside him as a brother.

but from a logical standpoint it's infuriating...Alistair is a whiny, contradicting, little baby....He places the wardens so high...KNOWS and AGREES that they do "whatever is necessary"...to the point he doesn't bat an eyelash when Duncan MURDERS Jory.....and wants to argue that he was a "good man"...psh Duncan's a pretty cool character...but he's anything but honorable or a "good man." Read "The Calling" and you see more of what a tool Duncan really is.

Eh, my like for Duncan increased from reading the Calling, actually. It gives you an idea of how he's grown, and where he came from.

[Sarah1281]

Not sure that's really a fair comparison. I mean, Loghain felt the battle was unwinnable (whether it was or not or he was just trying to subconsciously justify his decision notwithstanding) and Duncan probably didn't factor into his calculations at all aside from maybe relief that the Orlesian order was out of the way. He might have done horrible things in the name of protecting the country, but that was what he was trying to do.



Howe had the Couslands killed despite the fact they'd been lifelong friends because he, personally, was jealous and overly ambitious and then he spent the rest of the game doing horrible things for no other even remotely implied reason than that he's a sadist.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Not sure that's really a fair comparison. I mean, Loghain felt the battle was unwinnable (whether it was or not or he was just trying to subconsciously justify his decision notwithstanding) and Duncan probably didn't factor into his calculations at all aside from maybe relief that the Orlesian order was out of the way. He might have done horrible things in the name of protecting the country, but that was what he was trying to do.

Howe had the Couslands killed despite the fact they'd been lifelong friends because he, personally, was jealous and overly ambitious and then he spent the rest of the game doing horrible things for no other even remotely implied reason than that he's a sadist.

Loghain outlawed the Wardens, however, so regardless of what he intended at Ostagar, he would no doubt have executed Duncan if he'd had the chance.  Blaming the Wardens for the defeat rubs salt in the wounds.  I think the comparison to Howe vis a vis the HN character is very apt.

And he profited from and supported Howe's actions, so he's complicit in them, even if he wasn't aware of the Highever massacre until after the fact.  If Howe is a sadist, Loghain is worse for being an opportunist willing to keep a sadist as his right-hand man.

As errant_knight said, I happen to agree with Alistair completely, so I've never spared Loghain.  I do sometimes respond differently to Anora, however, so I get to see her conniving turns, and I think everyone should get to hear Loghain pronounce your execution at least once.  Might put his "surrender" in a different light.  The only thing that has ever induced me to want to spare him is this comic.  Loghain is right about one thing- it's fortunate Maric didn't live to see his closest friend betray his son.

[Daerog]

Addai67 wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

I understand Alistair's view, but he is still a fool. A fool who is a friend with all my wardens so far, but anyone who holds his/her revenge above everything else is a fool.
However, I have executed Loghain in every one of my playthroughs because Loghain is worse by putting his hatred/pride/paranoia above everything else.

*head twists with the irony*

 There is irony with my post? I don't kill Loghain out of revenge, I just kill him because he is a danger. I would jail him if I had the choice, but no way am I going to give him a free pass. My character doesn't know about killing the darkspawn = GW dies, yet.
Please state where the irony is, I'm feeling really stupid right now and I want to know if I'm being hypocritical or not. I'm not the brightest person on the internet.

Edit: nevermind, I think I'm seeing it...

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 06 avril 2010 - 03:50 .

[LadyDamodred]

"Loghain is right about one thing- it's fortunate Maric didn't live to see his closest friend betray his sons."
^ fixed 

[Suron]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Not sure that's really a fair comparison. I mean, Loghain felt the battle was unwinnable (whether it was or not or he was just trying to subconsciously justify his decision notwithstanding) and Duncan probably didn't factor into his calculations at all aside from maybe relief that the Orlesian order was out of the way. He might have done horrible things in the name of protecting the country, but that was what he was trying to do.

Howe had the Couslands killed despite the fact they'd been lifelong friends because he, personally, was jealous and overly ambitious and then he spent the rest of the game doing horrible things for no other even remotely implied reason than that he's a sadist.

Loghain outlawed the Wardens, however, so regardless of what he intended at Ostagar, he would no doubt have executed Duncan if he'd had the chance.  Blaming the Wardens for the defeat rubs salt in the wounds.  I think the comparison to Howe vis a vis the HN character is very apt.

And he profited from and supported Howe's actions, so he's complicit in them, even if he wasn't aware of the Highever massacre until after the fact.  If Howe is a sadist, Loghain is worse for being an opportunist willing to keep a sadist as his right-hand man.

As errant_knight said, I happen to agree with Alistair completely, so I've never spared Loghain.  I do sometimes respond differently to Anora, however, so I get to see her conniving turns, and I think everyone should get to hear Loghain pronounce your execution at least once.  Might put his "surrender" in a different light.  The only thing that has ever induced me to want to spare him is this comic.  Loghain is right about one thing- it's fortunate Maric didn't live to see his closest friend betray his son.

it's funny...The Stolen Throne made me respect Loghain more..I like him much better after reading that book.....and while I still stand by Duncan being a murderer and anything but a "good man"...I did like him...overall..however The Calling is doing the reverse...I'm liking him less and less....it's cool in a sense cause you can see how he grew into the Warden Leader from a punk..but still..he was a punk..a huge punk..and while I'm not done with The Calling yet it's so far caused me to respect Duncan and even the Wardens themselves less and less....whereas TST made me respect Loghain more (but not enough to spare him....treason and causing the deaths of so many for a power trip is inexcusable)

[Sarah1281]

"Loghain is right about one thing- it's fortunate Maric didn't live to see his closest friend betray his sons."

Well, of course not. If Maric were alive then Cailan-the-questinably-competent wouldnt be in charge and Loghain would't have cut and run.



That's what always annoyed me about Loghain's 'how fortunate Maric did not live to see his son willing to hand the country over to the Orlesians' bit. Does he not understand cause and effect at all? Maric alive = Cailan not in a position to hand country over.

[Addai]

Suron wrote...

it's funny...The Stolen Throne made me respect Loghain more..I like him much better after reading that book.....and while I still stand by Duncan being a murderer and anything but a "good man"...I did like him...overall..however The Calling is doing the reverse...I'm liking him less and less....it's cool in a sense cause you can see how he grew into the Warden Leader from a punk..but still..he was a punk..a huge punk..and while I'm not done with The Calling yet it's so far caused me to respect Duncan and even the Wardens themselves less and less....whereas TST made me respect Loghain more (but not enough to spare him....treason and causing the deaths of so many for a power trip is inexcusable)

Heh, I had the opposite reaction.  Reading the books made me dislike Loghain all the more.  It's inconceivable that he would betray Maric's son, but really inconceivable that he would betray Rowan's.

I don't think you're supposed to consider the Wardens a group of white knights.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

"Loghain is right about one thing- it's fortunate Maric didn't live to see his closest friend betray his sons."

Well, of course not. If Maric were alive then Cailan-the-questinably-competent wouldnt be in charge and Loghain would't have cut and run.

That's what always annoyed me about Loghain's 'how fortunate Maric did not live to see his son willing to hand the country over to the Orlesians' bit. Does he not understand cause and effect at all? Maric alive = Cailan not in a position to hand country over.

Maric had a tendency to overcommit himself, too.  And if he had continued on the course laid out in The Calling, where he was planning to meet with the empress of Orlais, it probably would have come out much the same- Loghain betraying him instead of Cailan.

[jpdipity]

Sarah1281 wrote...

"Loghain is right about one thing- it's fortunate Maric didn't live to see his closest friend betray his sons."

Well, of course not. If Maric were alive then Cailan-the-questinably-competent wouldnt be in charge and Loghain would't have cut and run.

That's what always annoyed me about Loghain's 'how fortunate Maric did not live to see his son willing to hand the country over to the Orlesians' bit. Does he not understand cause and effect at all? Maric alive = Cailan not in a position to hand country over.

Not to mention, Maric was already in negotiations with Orlais at the end of The Stolen Throne.  It seems to me that Cailan was simply following in his father's footsteps by continuing talks with Orlais.

[Thor Rand Al]

Addai67 wrote...
As errant_knight said, I happen to agree with Alistair completely, so I've never spared Loghain.  I do sometimes respond differently to Anora, however, so I get to see her conniving turns, and I think everyone should get to hear Loghain pronounce your execution at least once.  Might put his "surrender" in a different light.  The only thing that has ever induced me to want to spare him is this comic.  Loghain is right about one thing- it's fortunate Maric didn't live to see his closest friend betray his son.

I can't help but think about the words Flemeth said to Maric that one night when Loghain and Maric met her. "Keep him close, and he will betray you.  Each time worse than the last."

Loghain letting Cailan die on the battlefield was the worst betrayal possible. For Maric and for Rowan.




I've never been able to let Loghain live, (except for that stupid achievement lol).  Not because of Alistair (well ok some lol) but because this is my country that Loghain has destroyed.  Being a Cousland, one of your father's last words, "Our family... always does our duty first." 
I don't look at it nessarily as Alistair's point but as my PC's.  What she's seen while traveling, all the distruction and chaos that could of been avoided.  All of the needless deaths, the suffering that can be laid at Loghain's feet.  That's why I've never been able to keep Loghain alive.  I emerse myself into the game and sometimes I wonder what would my father Bryce Cousland think,  what would he do if he was in my situation? 
And then I think about it from Alistair's point, him losing Duncan.  When he goes back to Ostagar he makes that comment about "this wound cutting deeper."  Yes it's because of Duncan but a part of me deep down wonder's if any of it's Cailan.  I know at the Landsmeet he says forget Cailan Maric this is for Duncan when he takes off Loghain's head but I still can't wonder when were in Ostagar if he's grieving for Cailan too.


EDIT:

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 06 avril 2010 - 04:50 .

[Sarah1281]

He says 'forget Maric' because he doesn't want his personification of evil waxing poetic about the father he never met when for Alistair it's all about Duncan.

[Thor Rand Al]

Sarah1281 wrote...

He says 'forget Maric' because he doesn't want his personification of evil waxing poetic about the father he never met when for Alistair it's all about Duncan.

Lol that's right, it was Maric,  my bad.  Been awhile since I've played that scene lol.

[CalJones]

There are valid reasons to both kill Loghain and spare him. Despite Ostagar, he still is Fereldan's greatest general (if you listen to the various gossips, there are numerous discussions about how his army is kicking ass, sometimes with inferior numbers to the bann they've defeated), and that's something you'd want when you're facing a horde. But it isn't the reason I spare him. I spare him out of mercy. I won't kill in cold blood. In the heat of battle, yes, but when someone has surrendered? Hell no. The fact that Loghain would kill you were the positions reversed does not make it right. It's not something I do, and it's not something I can tolerate from a friend, either.
The moment when Alistair screams "kill him already" is the moment he (Alistair) becomes dead to me.
I am not suggesting my view is the correct one or that my morals are better than anyone else's, but it's how I roll.

Modifié par CalJones, 06 avril 2010 - 06:39 .

[asaiasai]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

[BlueMew]

CalJones wrote...

There are valid reasons to both kill Loghain and spare him. Despite Ostagar, he still is Fereldan's greatest general (if you listen to the various gossips, there are numerous discussions about how his army is kicking ass, sometimes with inferior numbers to the bann they've defeated), and that's something you'd want when you're facing a horde. But it isn't the reason I spare him. I spare him out of mercy. I won't kill in cold blood. In the heat of battle, yes, but when someone has surrendered? Hell no. The fact that Loghain would kill you were the positions reversed does not make it right. It's not something I do, and it's not something I can tolerate from a friend, either.
The moment when Alistair screams "kill him already" is the moment he (Alistair) becomes dead to me.
I am not suggesting my view is the correct one or that my morals are better than anyone else's, but it's how I roll.

I understand, I suppose it's meant ot be the dilemma that it is. Kill someone who's at your mercy or let him live while he is clearly only sorry about the fact that his plans failed. I usually can't find it in myself to let him live, though only my somewhat-morally-debatable-rogue ever let Alistair be the one to kill him. If you make the judgement, you should also be the one to wield the sword, methinks. But there's another personal opinion for you

[shedevil3001]

i let alistair kill him i think he needs to get it out of his system to beable to move on even though i want to kill loghain for everything he did to the grey wardens but i cant be selfish so i leave it to alistair and watch him decapitate loghain with satisfaction

[nos_astra]

shedevil3001 wrote...

i let alistair kill him i think he needs to get it out of his system to beable to move on even though i want to kill loghain for everything he did to the grey wardens but i cant be selfish so i leave it to alistair and watch him decapitate loghain with satisfaction

tosavemoretimeyoushouldconsiderleavingoutallthespacesbetweenthewords
thatwayyourtextwillbeevenhardertoreadandbeevenmoreannoying

Modifié par klarabella, 06 avril 2010 - 04:50 .

[Walina]

asaiasai wrote...

I know this is been done to death but i have 13 complete plays now and i can not reconcile Allister's tantrum in the landsmeet. I just finished my Dwarf Noble origin recruited Loghain and the fact that Allister can not be reasoned with still bothers me. Well more to the point is Allister's romantic notions of what the GW are which flies directly in the face of reality is what bothers me, yes i am begining to beleive he is that stupid. This is more apparent depending on your origin as some are worse than others.

The GWs are a collection of thieves, cut throats, thugs and misfits, who have been cleansed of thier past indiscretions by surviving the joining. I have been tossing this around for months now in my head and today it finally occured to me what my problem with Allister's tantrum is, other than the obvious.

Davith is introduced by Duncan as a "fellow" if you talk to him Daveth is sparse on details, but he does tell you that Duncan saved him from something unpleasant. His skill set pegs him as a rogue so i think it is safe to guess he either stole something he should have left alone, or during the thievery someone wound up dead, so he probably has nothing but either a rope or a cell waiting for him. A city elf regardless of sex has commited a crime against thier lawful lord, morality aside, the CE broke the law and if you killed the Arls son i think it is safe to say that fun time in the dungeon is about to begin. By the law of the land you are a law breaker and an elf to boot. A dwarf noble origin you are accused of your brother's murder, for all intensive purposes i know i did not kill Tirin but that makes no difference, as far as the Deshirs are concerned you murdered your brother. As a mage you either assisted a blood mage while trying to escape the tower or betrayed a friend to the chantry. Neither case speaks volumes of praise for the new mage.

I can see his tantrum having merit if you play either the dalish or the human noble origins as there is no real crime to peg on either. The dalish your only misstep is lack of judgment, you should have ran and got the keeper, of course the game will not allow that option and it is not really much of one, but your truly innocent. The human noble is guilty of nothing more than being a Cousland and in the wrong place at the wrong time, again you are as innocent as a noble can be. These two origins do fit into the romantic notions of the GW that Allister has formed, skill, virtue and all that flowery stuff, but again Daveth's choice as a recruit should at least remind Allister that the GW are flexible in thier recruit choices. Skill matters, getting the job done matters, what crime or lack thereof does not.

This line of thought is further reinforced by Awakenings. Your recruits, again by the law of the land, are a pretty vile selection of individuals. Velena has been murdering merchants because as Nate put it she failed to check her facts. Nate is a Howe enough said there. Sereda (i think that is her name) is a member of the Legion who cut and ran during battle not a stellar recomendation there. Anders is an unrepentant blood mage who by conscription barely escapes the Chanty's justice. Oghren is an obnoxious drunk. Justice is about the only party member who is totally innocent but he is not really a warden either, he just inhabits the body of one so you do not even get to claim him as a tempering example.

When Allister yells in the Landsmeet that being a Warden is an honor, i do agree, but he is conviently forgetting that the wardens will accept help in any form against the blight. All who have skill are welcome provided of course they can survive the joining, and if i gathered it correctly even if you die during the joining you are still honored by the wardens. Loghain while from the perspective of the hunted is a vile human being, we do know that he was doing what he though best for Feraldin, it was just his methods sucked. He was selling elves into slavery to fund his armies, reprehensible fair enough, but it is not like he was linning his own pockets with the coin. Eamon was an obstruction, Loghain had no intention of killing Eamon just moving him out of the way until he could consolidate his position but by your timely intervention you can not even peg that on him.

Accepting Loghain into the wardens is in a lot of ways reinforcing the wardens position, to be able to turn your most hated enemy into an ally by the tip of a cup is an easy win. I do agree that this could be percieved as he wins by some folks. Are the wardens that weak that they needed to ride Loghains coat tails? Yes and because of Loghain's crimes at Ostagar, his prejudice against the wardens we will make you that which you hate the most, tried to destroy, that which you betrayed. Revenge or irony either works for me as to why i will about 75% of the time pick Loghain. I have used Loghain on several occasions once his talents are set up, he is geared up and his tactics are set he is every bit as good in the fight as Allister is. 

I know why the story will not support Allister and Loghain charging Denerim for the final battle, for me it seems that that combination would be way OP. Having selected Loghain to join the wardens my last play, take orders from me, i can not help but smile at the irony of it all. I am not even going to get into the questionably moral choices the PC GW makes during the game. Cheerleader or thug it is always first and foremost about stopping the blight, everything else is insignifigant in comparison. What you feel may temper your decisions but the only crime the GW can commit is fail to use every option and resource at your disposal to stop the blight, when the blight is ended then and only then is it the time for recriminations if any are in order.

Anyway sorry for the wall of text, and i thank those that read this for allowing me to finally get this out of my head so i can fill it up with some other triviality.

Asai

There is no real reason the game has just been designed that way : you can't have both Loghain and Alistair that's all. The proof ? Loghain just stand at the place as Alistair, he also a warrior with a shirld like Alistair, etc...

I've got over it and alistair became friendlier again at the end of the battle when I thrown Loghain at the archidemon

[Caldarin V]

Addai67 wrote...


Loghain outlawed the Wardens, however, so regardless of what he intended at Ostagar, he would no doubt have executed Duncan if he'd had the chance.  Blaming the Wardens for the defeat rubs salt in the wounds.  I think the comparison to Howe vis a vis the HN character is very apt.

And he profited from and supported Howe's actions, so he's complicit in them, even if he wasn't aware of the Highever massacre until after the fact.  If Howe is a sadist, Loghain is worse for being an opportunist willing to keep a sadist as his right-hand man.

As errant_knight said, I happen to agree with Alistair completely, so I've never spared Loghain.  I do sometimes respond differently to Anora, however, so I get to see her conniving turns, and I think everyone should get to hear Loghain pronounce your execution at least once.  Might put his "surrender" in a different light.  The only thing that has ever induced me to want to spare him is this comic.  Loghain is right about one thing- it's fortunate Maric didn't live to see his closest friend betray his son.

In response to your first point, about Loghain outlawing the Wardens...
My friend and I were talking about it, and if you think about it, from where Loghain stands/sees the battle, the Wardens did betray Ferelden; they were supposed to light the beacon and didn't until it was too late, resulting in the battle being unwinnable even with the support of Loghain's troops

[CalJones]

I think it more likely he outlawed the Wardens because he didn't want any "Orlesians" entering Fereldan. But it does seem that he considers the Wardens to be involved in some sort of Orlesian plot, given what he says at the Landsmeet, so we could both be right.

[Caldarin V]

I think the two could be related; Loghain is convinced the Orlesians want Ferelden back, and the Grey Wardens betray Cailan to weaken Ferelden's army.



Plus, the tower was overrun but you and Alistair survived. It sounds far more reasonable that you simply did not do your duty and fled than "the Flemeth of legend turned into a giant bird and picked us up off the tower before the darkspawn could kill us"

[SurelyForth]

Caldarin V wrote...

I think the two could be related; Loghain is convinced the Orlesians want Ferelden back, and the Grey Wardens betray Cailan to weaken Ferelden's army.

Plus, the tower was overrun but you and Alistair survived. It sounds far more reasonable that you simply did not do your duty and fled than "the Flemeth of legend turned into a giant bird and picked us up off the tower before the darkspawn could kill us"

Except your duty was to light the beacon and the beacon was lit. We know Loghain saw it, so he can't use that excuse.

He also knew there were tunnels under the Tower. I don't recall if it was explicitly stated that they were concerned that darkspawn could get in, but it was heavily implied. So unless he decided to completely forget that (and the fact that Cailan hand-selected the PC and Alistair to go) he has no reason to expect that the PC and Alistair failed their task, purposely or otherwise.

[Caldarin V]

the beacon was lit well after the signal to light it was given. It would be an easy jump in the logic, given his paranoia, that you intentionally didn't like the beacon until it was too late, after killing the men he had stationed there (there were no survivors, and I doubt anybody went back to check the tower to see the darkspawn, so I guess he might not have known the tower was overrun)



if he assumes you're working for the Orlesians, and if he had charged when the signal was lit, the vast majority of Ferelden's army would have been gone completely