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[Xandurpein]

SurelyForth wrote...

Caldarin V wrote...

I think the two could be related; Loghain is convinced the Orlesians want Ferelden back, and the Grey Wardens betray Cailan to weaken Ferelden's army.

Plus, the tower was overrun but you and Alistair survived. It sounds far more reasonable that you simply did not do your duty and fled than "the Flemeth of legend turned into a giant bird and picked us up off the tower before the darkspawn could kill us"

Except your duty was to light the beacon and the beacon was lit. We know Loghain saw it, so he can't use that excuse.

He also knew there were tunnels under the Tower. I don't recall if it was explicitly stated that they were concerned that darkspawn could get in, but it was heavily implied. So unless he decided to completely forget that (and the fact that Cailan hand-selected the PC and Alistair to go) he has no reason to expect that the PC and Alistair failed their task, purposely or otherwise.

I think that there is ample evidence that Loghain can be somewhat selective in his memories. This is also more or less what Anora says too about him. He makes up his mind, sets a course and is then blind to any evidence to the opposite.

[Caldarin V]

yes he does, but at the same time, from where he was standing, with the knowledge he had, a majority of the actions he took were the correct choices (not necessarily morally right ones, but the best thing for Ferelden)



and then we get to the part about the Tevinter slavers and I get really confused...

[Xandurpein]

Caldarin V wrote...

yes he does, but at the same time, from where he was standing, with the knowledge he had, a majority of the actions he took were the correct choices (not necessarily morally right ones, but the best thing for Ferelden)

and then we get to the part about the Tevinter slavers and I get really confused...

Not really. He has made up his mind about the player, the Grey Wardens and the Blight. He thinks he must win the Civil war quickly to unite Fereldan and so he must quickly make cash. He convinces himself that the ends justifies the means and so he does it. It's really just more of the same. His original intentions maybe good, but he gets stuck in his mindset to the point of obsession. He is almost the proverbial example of how the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

[Caldarin V]

agreed, I guess I just didn't see it in his personality to condone outsiders taking citizens of Ferelden in exchange for money (even if they were second class citizens)

[CalJones]

I tend to think that was more likely Howe's idea, given that he was (by that point) Teyrn of Denerim and Soris was in his dungeon. Having said that, that fact Loghain authorised it was definitely not cool (and more so given that he had lead a company of elves during the Orlesian war).

The Alienage is already in a mess thanks to the rioting post-Vaughn's rape spree, and the disease, so he probably does genuinely believe it can't be saved and thus agree to make some money to fill the empty war chests. But whichever way you cut it, it's a dick move.

[Caldarin V]

I tend to agree that most of the greater evil was howe's doing, not that it excuses Loghain's actions



I've taken to sparing him for those reasons, Alistair be damned

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

His original intentions maybe good, but he gets stuck in his mindset to the point of obsession. He is almost the proverbial example of how the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm not sure I would grant him good intentions, either.  No doubt he thinks he is serving a larger good, but despite his words it's clear to me that his motivations are not protecting Ferelden but hatred of the Orlesians that blinds him to all else.  Maric is able to move on from his crisis moments with his mother's murder and Katriel's betrayal, but Loghain only continues downward in a consuming spiral.

[Xandurpein]

I think that there simply is no 'good' or 'evil' choice in how you judge Alistair's tantrum or the issue of sparing Loghain for that matter. At first I thought Alistair's tantrum was out of character, but now that I have spent a lot more time musing it I think it's in keeping with his character, I simply failed to notice just how much of a blind spot he had for Loghain.



The issue is sufficiently grey to go either way, at the same time it touches some very deep currents in our view on justice, crime and punishment so that any choice you make is going to be a very strongly emotional question. I guess why people still debate the issue so heatedly on this forum.

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

His original intentions maybe good, but he gets stuck in his mindset to the point of obsession. He is almost the proverbial example of how the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm not sure I would grant him good intentions, either.  No doubt he thinks he is serving a larger good, but despite his words it's clear to me that his motivations are not protecting Ferelden but hatred of the Orlesians that blinds him to all else.  Maric is able to move on from his crisis moments with his mother's murder and Katriel's betrayal, but Loghain only continues downward in a consuming spiral.

But to me 'he thinks he is serving a larger good' is really the same as good intentions. It's in fact the very definition of it I think.

He thinks he is protecting Fereldan from the Orlesians. Note that there is no real mention of him hating individual Orlesians. He isn't spitting foam at Riordan for example. It's the thought that Orlesian troops can once again be let into Fereldan that makes him loose it.

[Caldarin V]

agreed

plus I think it's a waste to let your best tactical mind AND a very competent warrior be executed when there's still use for him



then again, during the court proceedings in Awakening, I told everybody involved to "join the army, make yourself useful"...



I tend to be a bit more pragmatic with people who I think of as misguided

[Costin_Razvan]

About the Alienage. I do think the slave traders moved in before Loghain gave them any authorization. I just think that Howe simply made a deal with them once he found, and Loghain agreed to it.

It surprised me as well that he agreed to it after I read the Stolen Throne. But well, a good general must ALWAYS treat everyone around him as tools, and he did exactly that.

I'm not sure I would grant him good intentions, either. No doubt he thinks he is serving a larger good, but despite his words it's clear to me that his motivations are not protecting Ferelden but hatred of the Orlesians that blinds him to all else.

Orlais tried to murder Maric several times, as stated in the Calling. The whole thing with the Orlesian Wardens and First Enchanter in the Calling also did little to help things. He has very good reasons to be paranoid of Orlais.

Don't even think for a second that Orlais wouldn't invade Fereldan if they knew they could take it. 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 avril 2010 - 10:08 .

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Don't even think for a second that Orlais wouldn't invade Fereldan if they knew they could take it. 

You know, the Blight and it's aftermath would have been an excellent moment to invade and take Ferelden. They didn't. What does that tell you?

[Costin_Razvan]

The aftermath of the Blight? When Fereldan had just defeated it by ITSELF with some help of dwarves and elves/werewolves and when the entire nation had mobilized its full army?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 avril 2010 - 10:17 .

[Caldarin V]

and some golems maybe? I wouldn't mess with Ferelden at that point- and yeah, all of it's armed forces are marshaled to fight against the blight. I think immediately post blight would be the worst time, since the army would take a bit of time to disband.

As it stands, Ferelden in peace time seems rather undefended, since each individual lord must call his banners (not to harp on the comparison, but again, very much like in Game of Thrones)

Modifié par Caldarin V, 06 avril 2010 - 10:20 .

[Caldarin V]

delete

Modifié par Caldarin V, 06 avril 2010 - 10:20 .

[Herr Uhl]

Caldarin V wrote...

and some golems maybe? I wouldn't mess with Ferelden at that point- plus, all of it's armed forces are marshaled to fight against the blight. I think immediately post blight would be the worst time, since the army would take a bit of time to disband.

As it stands, Ferelden in peace time seems rather undefended, since each individual lord must call his banners (not to harp on the comparison, but again, very much like in Game of Thrones)

I don't think that the dwarves give a hoot about the fate of Ferelden, they are not part of it. Neither would the Dalish, since they live as well in Orlais as Ferelden.

So it's the humans fending for themselves.

[Costin_Razvan]

So it's the humans fending for themselves.

The dwarves most likely would not fight for the humans. But the Dalish would, especially if Anora/Alistair promised them land at Ostagar. The werewolves wouldn't need much incentive to fight either.



And even IF ( and I mean big if ) the elves/werewolves would not help the humans. You must remember that the vast majority of the army you take to Denerim is human, the one you gather from Orzammar/Brecilian Forest/Mage Circle/Redcliff, only forms a small part of your grand army.

[Caldarin V]

that would depend on who you made king- if you put Behlen in charge, I wouldn't be surprised if they'd help drive out the Orlesians. Harrowmont on the other hand is an isolationist



still though, all the human forces in Ferelden would be enough

[Herr Uhl]

If the Orlesians wanted to invade, they could probably occupy, but they probably wouldn't gain much by it. And I don't imagine it to be Celene's style anyways.

[Caldarin V]

also very true

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

klarabella wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Don't even think for a second that Orlais wouldn't invade Fereldan if they knew they could take it. 

You know, the Blight and it's aftermath would have been an excellent moment to invade and take Ferelden. They didn't. What does that tell you?

Bingo.

The dwarves and elves would most likely not fight to drive out the Orlesians. What's in it for them? The Magi would probably be conscripted to help. Beyond that, it's a human affair. The Grey warden treaties compell only said groups to fight the Blight, hence why they wouldn't be used to sort out Loghain and the civil war.

And the human forces aren't that great, either. Throught the game, we are reminded that ostagar had heavy losses. The King's army in medieval societies was usually bigger than everyone elses.  Plus, the losses incurred during the civil war. Listening to the rumor mill at the bars, we keep hearing updates about several different battles between Loghain and rebel nobles. And alot of losses.

So, no. There really isn't squat in terms of defenses for Ferelden, and it's quite ripe for the plucking. It's still unsettled. The mage circle is still recovering from it's own heavy losses. Parts of Ferelden have been Blighted and are not livable for a while. Yet Orlais does not attack or invade. Why not? They haven't lost squat from the Blight, their Circle is still intact, as are all their armies.

Perhaps because, Ferelden simply isn't worth it anymore, and the Orlesians have cast their eyes toward other possible conquests. Invading Ferelden would be counterproductive. it's a backwaters country that's recovering from a Blight, and broke as hell to boot. There really wouldn't be anything to gain.