The Morality Game.
Débuté par
Wozza78
, avril 05 2010 12:34
#1
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 12:34
Wozza78
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I've played through DA:O several times now with each of the Origin storylines. There are so many little choices that can change the whole flavour of the game on each play through. I do have a problem however. Even though it is just a game I still find it difficult to make "evil" choices even when I have intentionally created an "evil" character. To date I have almost left Redcliffe to the undead... and failed, and almost convinced the werewolves to go after the Dalish but changed my mind, and came very close to persuading Gregoir to carrying out The Annulment of The Circle Tower... and failed again... what is wrong with me? Why can't I just be evil? Has anyone else struggled with morality in this game?
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#2
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 12:41
soignee
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Yeah I can't play a **** either. I've tried. I can be pragmatic- sacrificing Isolde, for example- but I can't actually make "ebil for the sake of ebil" decisions like defiling ashes, leaving redcliffe... Because it MAKES NO SENSE. Unless you are completely unhinged.
#3
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 12:41
sylvanaerie
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I can't play evil. Though out of curiousity I have done all those things just to see what happens. Well not the werewolf thing I just can't kill elves even snotty Dalish. And its never on any playthrough its just a 'Let's see' and then reload when I satisfy my curiousity.
Ultimately considering your 'evil' PC ends up doing a LOT of good in the world regardless of what choices he makes getting there if you finish the game and destroy the Archdemon...did you really play 'evil'? I guess it depends on what you define evil as?
Ultimately considering your 'evil' PC ends up doing a LOT of good in the world regardless of what choices he makes getting there if you finish the game and destroy the Archdemon...did you really play 'evil'? I guess it depends on what you define evil as?
#4
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 12:46
Mlai00
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I understand that this game is very immersive, so it becomes difficult to willingly make people suffer when you stop seeing them as just pixels. Ppl who really get into the roleplaying, can have a hard time willing themselves to do cruel things.
However, immersion *can* help you become more evil. I have no problem with being (semi-)evil, because the Origin put me in the right frame of mind. If I work out my PC's motivations, I can carry out what she feels is right/beneficial. It's like acting, you have to let yourself be.
--I saved Redcliffe this time, but I won't if 1 of the townsmen even looks at me wrong, when I play City Elf in the future.
--I sided with the Werewolves because Zathrian tried to manipulate me. My DC chara despises ppl who think they're so high and mighty that they can just use her like a tool. But in the end she still gave Zathrian one final chance, but he didn't take it and decided to fight. His choice doomed his clan. Her conscience is clear.
--I totally annulled that damn tower. Like Gregoir said, even 1 escaped secret abomination can devastate villages. My chara went thru Warden's Keep and Redcliffe and Honnleath; those are the only circle mages she's ever known. She does not trust circle mages at all. Whatever those circle mages are teaching in that tower, makes every single one of them want to go play with demons.
However, immersion *can* help you become more evil. I have no problem with being (semi-)evil, because the Origin put me in the right frame of mind. If I work out my PC's motivations, I can carry out what she feels is right/beneficial. It's like acting, you have to let yourself be.
--I saved Redcliffe this time, but I won't if 1 of the townsmen even looks at me wrong, when I play City Elf in the future.
--I sided with the Werewolves because Zathrian tried to manipulate me. My DC chara despises ppl who think they're so high and mighty that they can just use her like a tool. But in the end she still gave Zathrian one final chance, but he didn't take it and decided to fight. His choice doomed his clan. Her conscience is clear.
--I totally annulled that damn tower. Like Gregoir said, even 1 escaped secret abomination can devastate villages. My chara went thru Warden's Keep and Redcliffe and Honnleath; those are the only circle mages she's ever known. She does not trust circle mages at all. Whatever those circle mages are teaching in that tower, makes every single one of them want to go play with demons.
#5
Guest_Maviarab_*
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 12:52
Guest_Maviarab_*
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Depends on your definition of evil i think...
With regards to redcliffe village, why is it actualy evil? They are of no importance to you, not your problem, and have nothing to do with your treaties (which is actually what you have to do)....your only at Redcliffe because Alistair suggests it....
As the dialogue goes, why should you risk getting yourself killed for some villagers, you have more important things to be doing and worrying about.
As for the Elves, well yeah they all very nice I guess, but remember Zathrian started the curse, and purposely kept the curse alive, because he is a bitter and twisted individual....so really...how is helping the Werewolves....actually really evil?
Again, depends on your definition and views of what is evil and what isnt, its not always as black and white as you might like to think....
With regards to redcliffe village, why is it actualy evil? They are of no importance to you, not your problem, and have nothing to do with your treaties (which is actually what you have to do)....your only at Redcliffe because Alistair suggests it....
As the dialogue goes, why should you risk getting yourself killed for some villagers, you have more important things to be doing and worrying about.
As for the Elves, well yeah they all very nice I guess, but remember Zathrian started the curse, and purposely kept the curse alive, because he is a bitter and twisted individual....so really...how is helping the Werewolves....actually really evil?
Again, depends on your definition and views of what is evil and what isnt, its not always as black and white as you might like to think....
#6
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 01:12
Mirthadrond
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Aye, some things I just can't bring myself to do.
Although, defending redcliff as an evil bloke is not a good deed, it's practical.
You need the Arl and his troops. If redcliff is destroyed he won't be able to field much of an army.
Is it practical to sacrifice talented Elf warriors, for virtually uncontrollable beasts?
They might serve, but in the end will cause more problems than they solve.
Saving the tower? Well... Techically you save a couple of kids, 2 mages and Irving.
Everyone else 'in' the tower is dead or an abomination.
Irving declares the tower safe, but according to the codex it still takes time to actually finish the cleanup.
Btw - you can get the achievement without actually killing Irving.
Just tell gregor you need to be cautious, when he and Irving speak.
They'll throw him in jail for observation, and the Templars will help instead.
Which of course gives you no choice but to put the righteous smackdown on Isolde, for being a stupid selfish byotch. Watching her die for her own stupidity is almost worth cleansing the tower.
For elves, you could try to rp a character that hates them? Maybe they killed some friends of yours? In the dalish origin, you get a chance to murder 3 shems.
Side note: I prefer to be the good guy, as well. None of my evil characters have made it past lothering.
Although, defending redcliff as an evil bloke is not a good deed, it's practical.
You need the Arl and his troops. If redcliff is destroyed he won't be able to field much of an army.
Is it practical to sacrifice talented Elf warriors, for virtually uncontrollable beasts?
They might serve, but in the end will cause more problems than they solve.
Saving the tower? Well... Techically you save a couple of kids, 2 mages and Irving.
Everyone else 'in' the tower is dead or an abomination.
Irving declares the tower safe, but according to the codex it still takes time to actually finish the cleanup.
Btw - you can get the achievement without actually killing Irving.
Just tell gregor you need to be cautious, when he and Irving speak.
They'll throw him in jail for observation, and the Templars will help instead.
Which of course gives you no choice but to put the righteous smackdown on Isolde, for being a stupid selfish byotch. Watching her die for her own stupidity is almost worth cleansing the tower.
For elves, you could try to rp a character that hates them? Maybe they killed some friends of yours? In the dalish origin, you get a chance to murder 3 shems.
Side note: I prefer to be the good guy, as well. None of my evil characters have made it past lothering.
#7
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 01:17
Mirthadrond
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Mavirab- makes an excellent point: as 1 of 2 remaining gw's, will you risk the future of ferelden for 1 village?
If you die, ferelden falls.
If you die, ferelden falls.
#8
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 01:24
mousestalker
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The problem with helping the werewolves kill the elves is that isn't what the werewolves really want. They want to be released from the curse. Killing elves is fun and all, but it doesn't solve their problem.
#9
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 01:27
mousestalker
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Mirthadrond wrote...
Mavirab- makes an excellent point: as 1 of 2 remaining gw's, will you risk the future of ferelden for 1 village?
If you die, ferelden falls.
Maybe. If both you and Alistair die, then maybe Ferelden falls. That's the sort of thinking that got Loghain where he is and Anora where she is. When you think that you, personally, are indispensable, then you're being a bit too full of yourself. Or applying metagaming knowledge. Remember, your character doesn't find out why Grey Wardens are necessary to stop the Blight until after the Landsmeet.
#10
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 01:27
Wozza78
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Ah, the ages old quandry. Heart or brain? Then again my first character had a relationship with Morrigan which I believe had nothinh to do with either heart or brain.
#11
Guest_Maviarab_*
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 01:34
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Mouse..
True, but if you play it right with the dialogue, if you do nothelp the village....Alistair says nothing, Morrigan approves wholly (but then she says, why are we doing this,a lot think she being a cow, but she isnt, she is being sensible) and Leliana will actually get a small approval hit too...
Now that says to me that it really is the right thing to do, its not a case of being too full of yourself, if you take the game literally, your job is to get the army that the treaties require.....Redcliffe has nothing to do with it...again, your only there on Alistairs advice....
Take the game is it is, pretend its real, you have treaties to gain an army....where is Redcliffe? The answer is nowhere, its not important.
That may be a cold hard view, but thats war unfortunatly.
True, but if you play it right with the dialogue, if you do nothelp the village....Alistair says nothing, Morrigan approves wholly (but then she says, why are we doing this,a lot think she being a cow, but she isnt, she is being sensible) and Leliana will actually get a small approval hit too...
Now that says to me that it really is the right thing to do, its not a case of being too full of yourself, if you take the game literally, your job is to get the army that the treaties require.....Redcliffe has nothing to do with it...again, your only there on Alistairs advice....
Take the game is it is, pretend its real, you have treaties to gain an army....where is Redcliffe? The answer is nowhere, its not important.
That may be a cold hard view, but thats war unfortunatly.
#12
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 01:37
BlueMew
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Hehe, well, console yourself with the fact that even the morally dubious rarely behave like: Things to Do Today:
1. Eat toast evilly
2. Kick puppy
3. Slaughter the innocent
You can still have a heart and play nasty, you don't have to be a world destroyer
1. Eat toast evilly
2. Kick puppy
3. Slaughter the innocent
You can still have a heart and play nasty, you don't have to be a world destroyer
#13
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 01:44
Mlai00
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The problem with helping the werewolves kill the elves is that isn't what the werewolves really want. They want to be released from the curse. Killing elves is fun and all, but it doesn't solve their problem.
Nah, they just don't know what's good for them.
What's wrong with being werewolves? They've mastered their wills now, not just beasts anymore. Werewolves make them powerful. With power comes freedom. As human peasants, they're just sitting ducks for the next gang of bandits or warlord or group of Darkspawn. We're talking about a medieval world; who's to say which life is harder?
My DC grew up in Dust Town. She knows how pathetic the weak are, depending solely on the meager mercy of others, fodder to the whims of those who are stronger. She's doing the werewolves a favor by helping them retain their power.
Look how happy and proud they are, after the whole Brecilian quest is done. They realize my PC was right.
#14
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 01:51
Wozza78
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Did anyone else notice that in A Paragon of Her Kind, the whole question of morality was turned on its head? Harrowmont was the nicer of the two and Bhelen was an arrogant arse, but in the end one was bad for the dwarven kingdom and the other was good for it. Like the fact that the whole plot of that quest line turned everything on its head.
#15
Guest_Maviarab_*
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 01:52
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Exactly Wozza, why I said, good/evil is not always as black and white as we would like to think or believe....theres a fine line a lot of the times, and sometimes its very subjective.
again, depends on your view point as to what you think is evil.
again, depends on your view point as to what you think is evil.
#16
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 01:55
UpiH
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Oh well, clever people can easily imagine being evil and dumb, for evil and dumb people it's impossible to assume a clever position. /end trolling
#17
Guest_Maviarab_*
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 02:00
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Yes you are a trolll...
Some of the most evil people in history were actually very intelligent, far from dumb.
Some of the most evil people in history were actually very intelligent, far from dumb.
#19
Guest_Maviarab_*
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 02:10
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Some would say they are one and the same....
Define them...
Define them...
#20
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 02:10
HappyStasis
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Good and evil is a matter of perspectives not intelligence or cleverness.
#21
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 02:11
Wozza78
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Is it just me or did what UpiH just say sound dangerously close to what Morrigan said to Alistair outside Lothering?
#22
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 02:16
Nerdage
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Welcome to my world, I've made about 5 characters with the intention of being evil, my last was a mage I made with the intention of being an evil, blood-mage, solo attempt, then I couldn't even bring myself to lie to Irving about stealing that staff from the repository... I suppose it's a compliment to the game itself that you find yourself compelled to make choices that you, presumably, would in real life. Especially the dark ritual, I was supprised that, even on characters who where otherwise benevolent saviours to all, I found it quite difficult to turn it down, quite a few didn't.
Modifié par nerdage, 05 avril 2010 - 02:18 .
#23
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 02:19
soignee
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Mlai00 wrote..
My DC grew up in Dust Town. She knows how pathetic the weak are, depending solely on the meager mercy of others, fodder to the whims of those who are stronger. She's doing the werewolves a favor by helping them retain their power.
Look how happy and proud they are, after the whole Brecilian quest is done. They realize my PC was right.
I agree with this in part. We have the same origins, and if your character is still having the attitude of "survival of the fittest, the weak are pathetic" it means the caste system wins and you're just as bad. Dust Town is a ****ty place, and while Broscas have to hustle and 'hore to survive, it doesn't mean they shouldn't try to better themselves, or see the good in people, just because it's all the life they know.
You'll go around in life expecting to be dust under boots, then you will always see and expect the worse in people. There is only so much you can do with that frame of mind before you're consumed by it; if you make your experiences and traumas a cage you'll never move on from them.
It's actually a common theme in the Origins, to be fair. Being a Grey Warden gives you a second chance. For Brosca your cage is poverty, for the Mages it's the opression of the tower, for the City Elves it's escaping the Alienage. Now, you can RP that you don't see it as a cage- a mage might be a loyalist to the Chant and really, really does see magic as a sin- but, regardless; they're given a chance to see the other side of the world for a change.
Modifié par soignee, 05 avril 2010 - 02:20 .
#24
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 02:20
HappyStasis
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Wozza78 wrote...
Is it just me or did what UpiH just say sound dangerously close to what Morrigan said to Alistair outside Lothering?
Which one of the conversations are you referring to? They are difficult to separate because all of them mostly revolve around Morrigan being a **** and calling Alistair an idiot. Besides the comment from UpiH is hard to take as personal as whatever insults Morrigan spat out. That does not prevent the comment from having the same short sighted arrogance about it though.
#25
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 02:28
Sabriana
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As far as Redcliffe is concerned, Duncan, Cailan, as well as Alistair mention that the Arl of Redcliffe has an army at his disposal. An army that is still intact because they never made it to Ostagar.
Even an evil player can assume that Eamon would not be favorably disposed toward someone who abandoned his whole village/castle.
It is also not hard to assume that if the village becomes a ghost-town, many things that are/could be beneficial to the Warden would become unavailable - such as the smithy, and the tavern/shop.
There is a difference between psychotic evil (kill, kill, blood, muahahah), and "How can it get the most out of it for me, no matter how I can achieve it" evil.
Even an evil player can assume that Eamon would not be favorably disposed toward someone who abandoned his whole village/castle.
It is also not hard to assume that if the village becomes a ghost-town, many things that are/could be beneficial to the Warden would become unavailable - such as the smithy, and the tavern/shop.
There is a difference between psychotic evil (kill, kill, blood, muahahah), and "How can it get the most out of it for me, no matter how I can achieve it" evil.
