166 réponses à ce sujet

[UpiH]

If equating survival of the fittest to survival of the best isn't blatant sociobiology, I stand corrected.

There is a large difference between nature's survival of the fittest and what the people in this topic were doing.

What Darwin coined as survival of the fittest is an inanimate natural proces. It has little to do with ethics or what is right or wrong. Like the laws of gravity, evolution is just there.

In the past some people thought that a similar proces was happening between human nations or races. But I haven't come across any mention of social darwinism in this topic.

What the people in this topic were doing is rationally analyse a situation, weigh the pros and cons, and decide what would save more people in the end; defending Redcliffe or abandoning it.

Agreed, but in my books some justifications (may be on the other threads as well) come dangerously close to blatant sociobiology. As a rule of thumb: people defend their solutions and sometimes that may take quite a streth, doncha think?

Modifié par UpiH, 05 avril 2010 - 04:26 .

[UpiH]

HappyStasis wrote...


I think I should intrude upon the discussion here. I believe it is my statements that UpiH is commenting on. With regards to that, UpiH, I was merely trying to inform you about the underlying definitions of "survival of the fittest" because you seemed to use the term in a field where it did not belong.

In that case, thank you. I just happened to see that used in an earlier post, so it wasn't me who was using it in the first place.

[Herr Uhl]

Maviarab wrote...

And so what exactly? Its Alistair who wants to bring down Loghain....Eamon who suggests confronting him....your a Grey Warde....do not deal in politics....your job is to get your army (treaties, remember of which the Arl and Redcliffe are not part of) and fight the blight. Logahin really should be incidental.

And thats where it all goes south, the storyline arc makes you see Eamon, makes you confront Loghain, when really, neither are that important to you.

Loghain has the bulk of the armed forces in Ferelden and outlawed the GW, it's either confrontation or just going off to Orlais and wait.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Maviarab wrote...

And so what exactly? Its Alistair who wants to bring down Loghain....Eamon who suggests confronting him....your a Grey Warde....do not deal in politics....your job is to get your army (treaties, remember of which the Arl and Redcliffe are not part of) and fight the blight. Logahin really should be incidental.

And thats where it all goes south, the storyline arc makes you see Eamon, makes you confront Loghain, when really, neither are that important to you.

Loghain has the bulk of the armed forces in Ferelden and outlawed the GW, it's either confrontation or just going off to Orlais and wait.

Yep.

Eammon on the otherhand is not worth the PC going on some myth hunting that even Zealot templars find  stupid. He is very easily replaceable (Teagan, his superior in everything).  

[Apophis2412]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Maviarab wrote...

And so what exactly? Its Alistair who wants to bring down Loghain....Eamon who suggests confronting him....your a Grey Warde....do not deal in politics....your job is to get your army (treaties, remember of which the Arl and Redcliffe are not part of) and fight the blight. Logahin really should be incidental.

And thats where it all goes south, the storyline arc makes you see Eamon, makes you confront Loghain, when really, neither are that important to you.

Loghain has the bulk of the armed forces in Ferelden and outlawed the GW, it's either confrontation or just going off to Orlais and wait.

Yep.

Eammon on the otherhand is not worth the PC going on some myth hunting that even Zealot templars find  stupid. He is very easily replaceable (Teagan, his superior in everything).  

Eamon might not be as capable as Teagan (and what evidence do you have for this notion?), but is far more popular. And you'll need that popularity to get more nobles on your side, so you can confront Loghain.

[Wozza78]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Maviarab wrote...

And so what exactly? Its Alistair who wants to bring down Loghain....Eamon who suggests confronting him....your a Grey Warde....do not deal in politics....your job is to get your army (treaties, remember of which the Arl and Redcliffe are not part of) and fight the blight. Logahin really should be incidental.

And thats where it all goes south, the storyline arc makes you see Eamon, makes you confront Loghain, when really, neither are that important to you.

Loghain has the bulk of the armed forces in Ferelden and outlawed the GW, it's either confrontation or just going off to Orlais and wait.

Yep.

Eammon on the otherhand is not worth the PC going on some myth hunting that even Zealot templars find  stupid. He is very easily replaceable (Teagan, his superior in everything).  

I agree. It's always been a bone of contention with e that in the midst of this race to gather a Darkspawn bashing army the PC is expected to run off on a quest that could take god knows how long or lead him to god knows where whilst the Arch Demon is busy gathering it horde in the wilds.

[HappyStasis]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Maviarab wrote...

And so what exactly? Its Alistair who wants to bring down Loghain....Eamon who suggests confronting him....your a Grey Warde....do not deal in politics....your job is to get your army (treaties, remember of which the Arl and Redcliffe are not part of) and fight the blight. Logahin really should be incidental.

And thats where it all goes south, the storyline arc makes you see Eamon, makes you confront Loghain, when really, neither are that important to you.

Loghain has the bulk of the armed forces in Ferelden and outlawed the GW, it's either confrontation or just going off to Orlais and wait.

Yep.

Eammon on the otherhand is not worth the PC going on some myth hunting that even Zealot templars find  stupid. He is very easily replaceable (Teagan, his superior in everything).  

However, because the rest of the world is just as narrow-minded when it comes to the blight as Teagan is, you have to run around doing silly stuff if indeed you want to assemble an army. And that goes for the dwarves, elves, humans, werevolves and everybody else. Perhaps with the exception of the mages guild as they really are in no condition to go fight unless you help them out.

OR

Screw your pride and join Loghain anyway. I mean if you send an envoy saying we are two greywardens and we just wish to give our lives in an attempt at defeating the blight he really shouldn't care that much. But ofcourse, with that descision there would hardly be a game to play.  

[UpiH]

Yeah, why not just take a toothpick and boldly go where no man have ventured? All the Darkspoon will fall before your might. I mean, usually I do not need the armies in the final battle anyway, heck, they are just on the way. Much energy wasted just trying to heal them.

[CalJones]

Yes, quite. It would be interesting if you could say sod Eamon and let Teagan take his place (as Ser Perth suggests, in fact). Even more interesting if you could side with Loghain. Getting to him without getting thrown in jail or executed might be tricky, but it would be funny to do it at Arl Eamon's estate when Loghain calls Eamon reckless.



Warden: Actually, Loghain's right.

Eamon: Eh...?

Alistair: What?!!

Warden: It's true. Besides he has the strongest forces and the best strategic mind here. And his daughter's hot.

Alistair: I can't believe you're saying this! After all we've been through together!

Warden: Deal with it, cheese-head. You'd suck at being king as much as you suck at being a warden. Loghain, any spare rooms in the palace? I'm coming with you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Apophis2412 wrote...
Eamon might not be as capable as Teagan (and what evidence do you have for this notion?), but is far more popular. And you'll need that popularity to get more nobles on your side, so you can confront Loghain.

Nothing indicates that Eammon is that more popular, especially since the game tells us that Teagan is fairly popular himself. If he inherits his brother's position, then whatever popularity Eammon had would mostly go to Teagan.
Furthermore, Eammon's popularity is useless. The landsmeet would still stand against us, if it weren't for the PC uncovering Loghain's deeds. Eammon's popularity is mostly irrelevent.

And let's assume that Eammon is that popular, is he worth you going on some grail hunt that makes even zealous templars (aka brainwashed to be chantry lackeys) raise an eyebrow?
Not for me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 avril 2010 - 04:55 .

[HappyStasis]

CalJones wrote...

Yes, quite. It would be interesting if you could say sod Eamon and let Teagan take his place (as Ser Perth suggests, in fact). Even more interesting if you could side with Loghain. Getting to him without getting thrown in jail or executed might be tricky, but it would be funny to do it at Arl Eamon's estate when Loghain calls Eamon reckless.

Warden: Actually, Loghain's right.
Eamon: Eh...?
Alistair: What?!!
Warden: It's true. Besides he has the strongest forces and the best strategic mind here. And his daughter's hot.
Alistair: I can't believe you're saying this! After all we've been through together!
Warden: Deal with it, cheese-head. You'd suck at being king as much as you suck at being a warden. Loghain, any spare rooms in the palace? I'm coming with you.

Isn't the reason that you can't **** over Eamon, that Teagan actually won't help you if you don't help Eamon?
 
As for the dialogue: Check mate

[Sabriana]

Unless Loghain is either brought into line, or the PC can side with him, there is little she can do. What is she supposed to do? Fight on two fronts? The country has to be united, the Bannorn is already in revolt, there is a civil war going on.

The GWs are outlawed, and accused of treason. Neither armies are able to fight the Blight alone. The rebelling nobles don't have enough soldiers, Loghain doesn't have enough soldiers, and the armies the GW is supposed to collect are also not enough. They're not interested in fighting in any civil war. The treaties compel them to fight the Blight, nothing else. You don't really think the dwarfs and/or the elves would give a rat's ass about the Ferelden human nobility and their petty squabbles, do  you?

If the PC just gathers the armies, she is still sitting between two chairs. Hence, she needs a uniting force in the nobility. Eamon is the only choice she has.

Else, it's either:
Side with Loghain
Go to Orlais and wait it out with the other GWs

Modifié par Sabriana, 05 avril 2010 - 05:04 .

[UpiH]

Isn't it implied that you need Eamon to call the Landsmeet in the first place or could Teagan replace him? I have yet to take a route without Eamon, so I'm curious. What happens after that, however, is a different thing entirely.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sabriana wrote...
If the PC just gathers the armies, she is still sitting between two chairs. Hence, she needs a uniting force in the nobility. Eamon is the only choice she has.

Teagan can replace him, as the only relative to Eammon capable of assuming the Arlship.

Eammon is not the only choice. It's the only choice presented to (forced upon) us. Even to a diehard atheist PC who should just laugh at the idea of Andraste's ashes being preserved, let alone being capable of curing anything.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 avril 2010 - 05:08 .

[Wozza78]

UpiH wrote...

Isn't it implied that you need Eamon to call the Landsmeet in the first place or could Teagan replace him? I have yet to take a route without Eamon, so I'm curious. What happens after that, however, is a different thing entirely.

That's a good point. If you defile the ashes does Eamon die and Teagan take over and call The Landsmeet or does the game decide for you that you take a pinch of the ashes before defiling them?

[HappyStasis]

Sabriana wrote...

 You don't really think the dwarfs and/or the elves would give a rat's ass about the Ferelden human nobility and their petty squabbles, do  you?

Nope, but if they had a figment of imagination they would be able to see what the consequences of a blight running rampant due to these squabbles would be. And that would, incidentally, happen to be the downfall of both the dwarves and the elves. Along with everything else along the way to the gates of Orlais.

[Sabriana]

Yeah, the game won't let the Warden put Teagan into Eamon's place. More's the pity.

If the PC defiles the ashes, she automatically takes a pinch first, no matter what dialogue choice you pick, Wozza.

HappyStasis, the dalish could skedaddle to Orlais/whatever, and the dwarfs actually catch a break if the darkspawn assemble top-side. At least that's what my PC was told numerous times while in Orzammar desperately trying to make them see that fighting the Blight is more important than political squabbles.

[UpiH]

I don't think it's possible to be an "atheist" in such a world filled with magic. Morrigan has an explanation, though.



I'd regard "magic" as science in that setting; clearly it just replaces science. So, ignoring the possibility of the Ashes being able to cure Eamon would be equivalent to denying stem cell research being able to help cure diabetes.

[Sabriana]

If you take Oghren with your PC to the Gauntlet, he has some interesting things to say in regards to the mountain and the ashes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

UpiH wrote...

I don't think it's possible to be an "atheist" in such a world filled with magic. Morrigan has an explanation, though.

I'd regard "magic" as science in that setting; clearly it just replaces science. So, ignoring the possibility of the Ashes being able to cure Eamon would be equivalent to denying stem cell research being able to help cure diabetes.

Huh? How do you explain Qunari technological advancements? Magic? They hate it.
The Qunari have science, and they don't need magic. The Dwarves too have some euivalent to science and they don't need magic. And both those races are better than the rest in terms of development.

Magic is not the replacement of science at all.  

A very weak analogy.
A, you don't even know if the ashes exist.
B, you don't even know that magic is involved. (unless you go there and take Oghren with you) 
C, even the goddamn Chantry thinks it doesn't exist.
D, it isn't studied and researched , in order to ascertain the possibility of it curing anything.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 avril 2010 - 05:24 .

[Wozza78]

Sabriana wrote...

If you take Oghren with your PC to the Gauntlet, he has some interesting things to say in regards to the mountain and the ashes.

*Sigh* I can feel another playthrough coming on. I'm running out of veins for my introvenus coffee drip...

[UpiH]

Our ancestors ate willow bark and got some help in their pains. They didn't know, they ate acetylsalicylic acid, yet it worked wonders.

[Herr Uhl]

UpiH wrote...

Our ancestors ate willow bark and got some help in their pains. They didn't know, they ate acetylsalicylic acid, yet it worked wonders.

They also drained people of blood to drive out the spirits.

[KnightofPhoenix]

UpiH wrote...

Our ancestors ate willow bark and got some help in their pains. They didn't know, they ate acetylsalicylic acid, yet it worked wonders.

But they saw the results and came to the conclusion that it's useful.

You don't know that the ashes can cure, unless you go find them. Which is a huge leap of faith considering the time you are wasting and the big possibility that it would all be for nothing. And that's the only option being forced down our throats.