166 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

UpiH wrote...

Our ancestors ate willow bark and got some help in their pains. They didn't know, they ate acetylsalicylic acid, yet it worked wonders.

They also drained people of blood to drive out the spirits.

My ancestors personally did no such things. My ancestors seem to be smarter than my current people today *sigh*

[Sabriana]

Oh ugh, now I have leeches in my mind's eye. Thanks Herr Uhl. No. Really. Thank you

Intravenous coffee drip? Wow, that's dedication.

[soignee]

I love reading arguments on the internets.

Just pretend I've posted an awesome popcorn.gif and it was lulzy, everyone.

[Herr Uhl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

UpiH wrote...

Our ancestors ate willow bark and got some help in their pains. They didn't know, they ate acetylsalicylic acid, yet it worked wonders.

They also drained people of blood to drive out the spirits.

My ancestors personally did no such things. My ancestors seem to be smarter than my current people today *sigh*

I thought it was a more apt analogy, considering the supposedly divine nature of the ashes. Every culture has some weird rituals. And what ancestry is yours?

[HappyStasis]

Sabriana wrote...

HappyStasis, the dalish could skedaddle to Orlais/whatever, and the dwarfs actually catch a break if the darkspawn assemble top-side. At least that's what my PC was told numerous times while in Orzammar desperately trying to make them see that fighting the Blight is more important than political squabbles.

I suppose the Dalish could, but the Dwarves couldn't. The live in bloody breeding grounds of the blight. Besides, just because they tell you so does not make it true.
I was not under the impression that the Dwarven Realm would be all empty when the blight moved out. Ofcourse that could be true. For a time. After which the Dwarves would really be in trouble if the nobles failed to destroy the blight. They have an interest in the survival of the surface realm. If for nothing else then the stability of the region. It would be a strategically critical error to let your allies fall alone when it has been recorded by history that it takes more than a single nation to defeat the blight. It isn't the first time they suffer from it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...

They also drained people of blood to drive out the spirits.

My ancestors personally did no such things. My ancestors seem to be smarter than my current people today *sigh*

I thought it was a more apt analogy, considering the supposedly divine nature of the ashes. Every culture has some weird rituals. And what ancestry is yours?

Arab.
Well they were pretty ignorant before the 7th century in Arabia proper.
But if we count the Amorite, Akkadian, Aramaic, Assyrian (Semites in general) in my ancestry, then they were not bad themselves. Or maybe I am just biased

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 avril 2010 - 05:37 .

[UpiH]

Basically I agree with Phoenix. However, denying magic's role in the DAS is just putting you head in the sand. What's the essence of lyrium? Weapon runes? The Qunari hate magic, that doesn't exclude it. Aren't there branches in science? I, for one do not regard theology a science, yet it has faculties in the universities all over the world. The creationists deny evolution theory, yet they rely on science while at the doctor. I could go on and on. Our cellphones would be seen quite magical or even demonic from a medeival viewpoint.

[Herr Uhl]

UpiH wrote...

Basically I agree with Phoenix. However, denying magic's role in the DAS is just putting you head in the sand. What's the essence of lyrium? Weapon runes? The Qunari hate magic, that doesn't exclude it. Aren't there branches in science? I, for one do not regard theology a science, yet it has faculties in the universities all over the world. The creationists deny evolution theory, yet they rely on science while at the doctor. I could go on and on. Our cellphones would be seen quite magical or even demonic from a medeival viewpoint.

There is *nothing* known of the ashes. Not even if they exist.

[UpiH]

Seem was a son of a mythological character Noah in an other setting. There have been people some 100 000 years before Noah and his children.

[Herr Uhl]

Your point being?



People doubt that the ashes even exist, and it's a legend. It's like looking for the elixir of life to become immortal. But admittedly more plausible.

[UpiH]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Your point being?

People doubt that the ashes even exist, and it's a legend. It's like looking for the elixir of life to become immortal. But admittedly more plausible.

I've usually done the Ashes right after Lothering. Brother Genitivi, I'm told, is a remarkable scholar (scientist, if you like) in the setting and his research suggests differently, goes against common beliefs.

[KnightofPhoenix]

UpiH wrote...

Basically I agree with Phoenix. However, denying magic's role in the DAS is just putting you head in the sand. What's the essence of lyrium? Weapon runes? The Qunari hate magic, that doesn't exclude it. Aren't there branches in science? I, for one do not regard theology a science, yet it has faculties in the universities all over the world. The creationists deny evolution theory, yet they rely on science while at the doctor. I could go on and on. Our cellphones would be seen quite magical or even demonic from a medeival viewpoint.

How do you even know that the ashes are magical? You don't know that. Even the Chantry sees any research about the ashes to be borderline heresy.
You only know that it's magical if you go there and take Oghren with you. Otherwise, you don't know if it's magic.

Not all creationists deny evolution theory. It was Muslim scientists who came up with it (Al Jahez and Ibn Khaldun) way before Darwin (their theory has some differences with Darwin's however, but the concept is the same).

And I fail to see the point of your other statements.

The point is, I think going after the ashes is a huge leap of faith. You don't know if the ashes exists, even the chantry is skepical about that (all the less reason to believe it exists if you were a non-Andrastrian). You do not know if they can actually cure anything or if they are magical in nature (and seeing how magic is hated by the Chantry, it would be a stretch to assume that Andraste was involved in magic, even if it's true).

And perhaps more importantly, all of that shouldn't even be necessary. Eammon is useless or at the very least easily replaceable.

Dragon Age is a great dark fantasy, except in this. It goes to the old cliche of a hero going on some quest to find a relic with no evidence that it exists, in order to cure a sick old man.

[Herr Uhl]

UpiH wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Your point being?

People doubt that the ashes even exist, and it's a legend. It's like looking for the elixir of life to become immortal. But admittedly more plausible.

I've usually done the Ashes right after Lothering. Brother Genitivi, I'm told, is a remarkable scholar (scientist, if you like) in the setting and his research suggests differently, goes against common beliefs.

Oh, how many scholars have not sought the elixir of life/holy grail/[insert legendary object of great power for your culture of choice].

[Wozza78]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

UpiH wrote...

Basically I agree with Phoenix. However, denying magic's role in the DAS is just putting you head in the sand. What's the essence of lyrium? Weapon runes? The Qunari hate magic, that doesn't exclude it. Aren't there branches in science? I, for one do not regard theology a science, yet it has faculties in the universities all over the world. The creationists deny evolution theory, yet they rely on science while at the doctor. I could go on and on. Our cellphones would be seen quite magical or even demonic from a medeival viewpoint.

How do you even know that the ashes are magical? You don't know that. Even the Chantry sees any research about the ashes to be borderline heresy.
You only know that it's magical if you go there and take Oghren with you. Otherwise, you don't know if it's magic.

Not all creationists deny evolution theory. It was Muslim scientists who came up with it (Al Jahez and Ibn Khaldun) way before Darwin (their theory has some differences with Darwin's however, but the concept is the same).

And I fail to see the point of your other statements.

The point is, I think going after the ashes is a huge leap of faith. You don't know if the ashes exists, even the chantry is skepical about that (all the less reason to believe it exists if you were a non-Andrastrian). You do not know if they can actually cure anything or if they are magical in nature (and seeing how magic is hated by the Chantry, it would be a stretch to assume that Andraste was involved in magic, even if it's true).

And perhaps more importantly, all of that shouldn't even be necessary. Eammon is useless or at the very least easily replaceable.

Dragon Age is a great dark fantasy, except in this. It goes to the old cliche of a hero going on some quest to find a relic with no evidence that it exists, in order to cure a sick old man.

Almost as cliched as the first encounter in The Human Noble origin being giant rats huh?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wozza78 wrote...
Almost as cliched as the first encounter in The Human Noble origin being giant rats huh?

lol Well that was a harmless joke.

The Sacred ashes quest on the otherhand is painful if you really think about it. Which is why I put my brain on off-mode when doing the quest.

[Sabriana]

HappyStasis wrote...
I suppose the Dalish could, but the Dwarves couldn't. The live in bloody breeding grounds of the blight. Besides, just because they tell you so does not make it true.
I was not under the impression that the Dwarven Realm would be all empty when the blight moved out. Ofcourse that could be true. For a time. After which the Dwarves would really be in trouble if the nobles failed to destroy the blight. They have an interest in the survival of the surface realm. If for nothing else then the stability of the region. It would be a strategically critical error to let your allies fall alone when it has been recorded by history that it takes more than a single nation to defeat the blight. It isn't the first time they suffer from it.

True. But they believe their opinions. The last Blight was 400 years in the past. It makes really no difference if the dwarfs get overrun or not, they still are of the opinion that the blight is a reprieve for them. So it is unlikely that they would involve themselves in topsider unrest and/or civil war.

And let us not forget that the dwarven kingdom stretched the size of Tevinter at one point in time. They even rediscovered Kal Sharok. Nowhere is it mentioned where Kal Sharok actually is, other than the casual "on the other side" by the Shaper. Nobody but the dwarfs know the actual size of the former dwarven kingdom, and the where they could retreat to in a disastrous event.

True again, the Deep Roads are usually overrun by darkspawn, but in a Blight, they usually have the bulk of their horde on the surface. Hence the captain saying "either we've gotten the upper hand, which I doubt, or they are waiting to make their next move."

[UpiH]

Basilcally, I'm saying, what we call "science", could be called "magic" from a different viewpoint. It all comes to beliefs. People believe, what they want to believe...

[Addai]

Wozza78 wrote...
Why can't I just be evil? Has anyone else struggled with morality in this game?

Heh, I am the same way, but why fight it?  I feel no compulsion to do something that's not fun just to say I did everything in the game.

OTOH there have been things that I came to see as not black and white, so what I previously considered an "evil" choice, I could justify on other characters.  For instance, sacrificing Isolde.  There, you really do put the lives of many people on the line if you take the option to go to the Circle Tower.  Or when I unlocked blood magic, my mage character could justify making the deal because of the direness of the darkspawn threat, having seen how paltry Circle magic is stacked up against darkspawn emissaries.

Killing the Dalish or defiling the ashes are two things I've never been able to justify.  My dwarf noble was going to defile the ashes because it seemed pointless to kill Kolgrim just for the sake of ashes.  She changed her mind at seeing that it seemed like a genuine historical monument, however, and because of Zevran's awed "Maker's breath, it IS real!"  I figure she compared it to someone writing graffiti on a statue of a paragon.  She wouldn't like it if an outsider did that.  As for the Dalish, I had my HNF character propose it because I wanted to see Zevran's plea for them.  In my head she was just suggesting to kill Zathrian, and backed down when Zevran objected.

[mousestalker]

Everyone has unfortunate ancestors if you dig back far enough. What we can do is try to make sure our descendants aren't too horribly ashamed about us.



Which is pretty much the error the Dalish have fallen into. By focusing on past wrongs they forget that they need to adapt to the world as it is, not as they imagine it once was.

[mousestalker]

I go to Haven not for the Ashes, but because of a book I find at Brother Genitivi's about dragon cults. Once there, the altars and general inbred behaviour of the inhabitants lead my Warden to hope there's a dragon. Since Archdemons are tainted really big dragons, fighting a non tainted dragon is excellent training for the finale.

[KnightofPhoenix]

UpiH wrote...

Basilcally, I'm saying, what we call "science", could be called "magic" from a different viewpoint. It all comes to beliefs. People believe, what they want to believe...

Science is a method. Based upon research, experimentation and falsifiying theories.
That's not magic.
Rather magic can become a focus of scientific experiments and research.

People can believe whatever they want, it doesn't change the objective definition of a word.
Magic cannot be seen as replacing science. It can be seen as a possible subject of scientific study.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 05 avril 2010 - 06:12 .

[mousestalker]

UpiH wrote...

Basilcally, I'm saying, what we call "science", could be called "magic" from a different viewpoint. It all comes to beliefs. People believe, what they want to believe...

Invoking Clarke's law, I see. But science is grounded upon repeatable, demonstrable results and deriving theories about the results using deductive logic. Magic just is. 

[Wozza78]

Maviarab wrote...

I've usually done the Ashes right after Lothering. Brother Genitivi, I'm told, is a remarkable scholar (scientist, if you like) in the setting and his research suggests differently, goes against common beliefs.

And I can show you as much proof and evidence that the Ark exists....doesnt mean anything....

and thats why as grey Warden, you would never waste your time helping the Arl and trying to find them, its not our problem, and to get back oj topic, is the reason why not helping save the village is not really an evil act.

As I said....depending on dialogue choice, you do not lose any approval from anyone...hell, you even gain approval from Miss goody two shoes Leliana....so it cant be an evil act can it?

I guesse what you are saying is that in the true sense of what a Grey Warden stands for, the risk to oneself in saving Redcliffe is not worth it when it could lead to the demise of the last two free Wardens in Ferelden dieing in battle. Its logical...but is't bloody cold logic

[UpiH]

For the people in the DAS, magic is a method, based on research, trial and error even, has lots of experimentation and contradicting theories...