536 réponses à ce sujet

[enormousmoonboots]

Collider wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I try to see it from their perspective. How would I feel if all my chances at romance were removed from my videogame? Sure, they have Liara, but where is she in ME2? Sidelined, so that the hetero romancers could get a chance to boink some more people.

First of all you are assuming that it was sidelined just for heterosexual players. Liara was sidelined because she could not be a squad mate, so she could survive. Second of all, not all of their chances of romance were "removed" from the video game. Literally, there is lesbian content with Liara, Shiala, Samara, Morinth, and Kelly. That's far from removed.

Character barely in the game (since they effectively removed the only bisexual romance, they should have added one to replace it), one line of flirt dialog if you didn't kill her, get turned down by her, evil murderer who you either kill or are killed by, has a fraction of romance dialog and the game does not even consider it a romance (no Paramour). They're there, but they are by no means equivalent to the heterosexual romances. Also note that all but one of those people are asari, who Bioware tries to say aren't women.

Looking at previous Bioware games where you can have a full-fledged romance with a same-sex character WITHOUT PR bullsh!tting that Silk Fox or Leliana is not actually a woman, it's goddamn insulting. The fact that they keep trying to backpedal that it's all coincidental is even more so.

Like I said before--I don't want everyone to be gay or bi, I just want SOMEONE--who isn't an asari--to be.

[Collider]

rynluna wrote...
Manshep doesn't get any m/m options.  That's terrible.

Neither do 99% of other games. Yet Mass Effect 1 & 2 have lesbian content. If you think a game with lesbian content (as opposed to...?) is terrible for LGBT players I have to go WAT again.

[Maria Caliban]

I'd like to point out that neither Silk Fox, Liara, or Leliana were lesbain, nor were Sky or Zevren gay.

[jlb524]

OK, I'll stop holding this company to any standards as far as these romances go.

[quote]Collider wrote...

I really think you are being too sensitive. Taking offense at that is ridiculous. It's the very same if you're male shepard. It's not PARTICULAR to lesbians, so why would you take special offense? Adn they are clearly not trying to offend you at all. So you are taking offense when no offense was intended?

[/quote]

Straight men have Kelly but then they also have legit straight romances with women.  Lesbian FemShep does not have that option.  That is particular to lesbians.  I'm looking at the Kelly thing in the context of romances in the game as a whole.


[quote]
Why does it matter if it's human or not? It's literally lesbian if both participants are female. I fail to see how it did not get the same respect.

[/quote]

It doesn't really matter.  The asari thing just upsets me b/c they try to hide behind their asexuality and say these relationships aren't 'same-sex'. 


[quote]
More accessible? You have to be kidding. I'm talking about ME2...it was terrible for LGBT players. [/quote]
Wow. Having LGBT content to begin with and yet it's still terrible for LGBT players.
WAT
[/quote]

What decent LGBT content is there that's comparable to any of the six straight romances that can be had with squad mates in ME2?  There's none that's decent in ME2.  There's absolutely no m/m content and the lesbian stuff either doesn't come to fruition (Samara) or is a joke (Kelly).

[Onyx Jaguar]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'd like to point out that neither Silk Fox, Liara, or Leliana were lesbain, nor were Sky or Zevren gay.

This is true

[jlb524]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Yes, that's my point, or am I to stop caring about these romances and just shut up and ride the possible 'no-******' trend?

You shouldn't be so pessimistic.

That's just my nature

After reading that interview, I don't see much reason for optimism.

[Collider]

enormousmoonboots wrote...
Character barely in the game (since they effectively removed the only bisexual romance, they should have added one to replace it), one line of flirt dialog if you didn't kill her, get turned down by her, evil murderer who you either kill or are killed by, has a fraction of romance dialog and the game does not even consider it a romance (no Paramour). They're there, but they are by no means equivalent to the heterosexual romances. Also note that all but one of those people are asari, who Bioware tries to say aren't women.

They aren't women. Literally. They are female, but not women. Also, I never said that they were equal content. Just that it was content.

Looking at previous Bioware games where you can have a full-fledged romance with a same-sex character WITHOUT PR bullsh!tting that Silk Fox or Leliana is not actually a woman, it's goddamn insulting. The fact that they keep trying to backpedal that it's all coincidental is even more so.

Wtf. These games have LGBT to begin with, which many companies would not dare to do, yet people feel it's insulting that they're behaving like a business.
...
And Dragon Age was released after Mass Effect 1.

Like I said before--I don't want everyone to be gay or bi, I just want SOMEONE--who isn't an asari--to be.

Kelly. When you say that you almost seem to appear as if you've forgotten about Dragon Age.

Modifié par Collider, 06 avril 2010 - 01:46 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Shandepared wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...


Pointless is pointless.  With Genetic Engineering sexual orientation is not needed.  By that time Procriation through other methods would be widespread and because of Genetic Engineering that may be preferable.

EDIT:  Worded confusingly, with the original sentence I made it sound like it wouldn't matter how many there were per sex class.  That also sounds strange, well whatever.

I see what you're saying, but when parents are designing their children why would they deliberately have homosexual children? I doubt that homosexuality doesn't exist in Mass Effect, but it is probably an even smaller minority than it is now. With enough people selecting against homosexuality in their children (due to it not being terribly common) it will become even more rare.

Hmm, this is a genuinely difficult question to answer.  It would all depend on the overall society by the time this science becomes widespread.  Also it would depend upon what someone is trying to accomplish by using this kind of Science. 

[DirtyVagrant]

Shandepared wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...


Pointless is pointless.  With Genetic Engineering sexual orientation is not needed.  By that time Procriation through other methods would be widespread and because of Genetic Engineering that may be preferable.

EDIT:  Worded confusingly, with the original sentence I made it sound like it wouldn't matter how many there were per sex class.  That also sounds strange, well whatever.

I see what you're saying, but when parents are designing their children why would they deliberately have homosexual children? I doubt that homosexuality doesn't exist in Mass Effect, but it is probably an even smaller minority than it is now. With enough people selecting against homosexuality in their children (due to it not being terribly common) it will become even more rare.

I don't think there is a 'gay gene' for genetic engineers to include or not include...

[jlb524]

Collider, this isn't about Dragon Age. It's about what is happening with the ME franchise and concerns about things that could be happening with BW in general regarding this romantic content.



I just don't understand how you can say that the LGBT content in ME2 was on par with the six romance possibilities straight characters had in ME2? I played through the Kelly 'romance' and it didn't feel as special to me or meaningful as when I played through the full Jack romance. Gay male Shepards don't even get a crappy easter egg like Kelly.

[Nightwriter]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Nightwriter, some do fear that it will be the start of a trend though.

They do. But would they go on about trends if it were a game that wasn't very good and meant little to them? Would they talk about trends then? Would they care? Would they go on about emerging patterns?

We try to attack the logical side of their argument - that this may become a "trend" - but the logical side is there because of the emotional side. That something has been taken away from a game they care about.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Shandepared wrote...

DirtyVagrant wrote...

I don't think there is a 'gay gene' for genetic engineers to include or not include...

So it's a choice then? Oh boy, here we go.

Psychological studies I have seen state otherwise (stimulation studies, seems to be purely biological based and not a psychological/cultural factor, openess to what sexuality you are factor into those equations).  Whether or not it would be a gene that could be targeted?  Who knows, this is speculation on a science that hasn't been adapted in such a way for humans yet.

[Vhira]

When BW is referring to "defined" characters, I don't believe they are referring to Shepard. Shepard is "your" personal character and his/her sexuality is not restricted. The preferences of the squadmates however, seem to be defined. I don't think it is reasonable or believable to have a crew where each member is potentially bisexual.

It also seems unreasonable to expect a character that may be open for a same sex relationship to resonate with all people looking for that type of encounter. In Mass Effect, the option is limited to Liara, with significant context given that asari can mate with any gender or species. Homosexual or interspecies relationships are core to the advancement of the asari, and I think Bioware should be applauded for creating a setting where these relationships are natural and accepted if not disguised somewhat to avoid media attention.

I can understand that, in a role playing game, not having the option to pursue a character you find interesting may be frustrating. Though, one of my favorite scenes in ME2 was actually being denied by Samara, who was clearly touched and conflicted by paragon FemShep's advances.

However, Bioware can't develop a cadre of compelling squadmates if their personalities are completely malleable. Bioware couldn't evoke the emotional responses they strive for if every squadmate was available as a potential love interest regardless of gender. Bioware has to make calculated decisions for which characters same sex relationships may be plausible.

That being said, I think it's rather unfortunate that bisexual Jack and a potential male/male romance arc were probably cut for marketing.

Anyways, tl;dr - don't take for granted the good, socially progressive elements Bioware has included in their games. I think it would cheapen those inclusions if they became ubiquitous.

Modifié par Vhira, 06 avril 2010 - 01:58 .

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
Straight men have Kelly but then they also have legit straight romances with women.

Lesbian FemShep does not have that option. That is particular to lesbians.

I thought one of your points was that the lesbian content was not depicted "positively"? (which I disagree with, I don't know how you could feel Samara was not portrayed positively in her bisexual romantic lines)

  I'm looking at the Kelly thing in the context of romances in the game as a whole.

It doesn't really matter.  The asari thing just upsets me b/c they try to hide behind their asexuality and say these relationships aren't 'same-sex'. 

I thought you just said that you weren't going to hold them to the same standards. Like I said, Bioware is a business, they're going to cut corners and play with semantics for PR. That's just what businesses do. They BS with everything. If there is another asari to romance as femshep in ME3, would you even care that one dude from Bioware said Asari aren't technically female? The codex says they are all female, female shepard is female, you can fill in the blanks. They had lesbian content to begin with, you should be glad of that. Now, if Bioware games never had LGBT content, and then they said that they disagreed with homosexuality in their games because it was too mature, THEN I would criticize the hell out of them. But not now.

What decent LGBT content is there that's comparable to any of the six straight romances that can be had with squad mates in ME2?  There's none that's decent in ME2.  There's absolutely no m/m content and the lesbian stuff either doesn't come to fruition (Samara) or is a joke (Kelly).

The fact that there is lesbian content to begin with that goes beyond the spam romance actions with the Sims and buying gifts of fable is extraordinary enough. Saying ME2 is horrible for LGBT players is a huge exaggeration, considering that there is LGBT content to begin with and the fact that it goes beyond the LGBT of most other games, if not all mainstream retail games not belonging to Bioware. Maybe you could say lackluster, but terrible? Come on.

[enormousmoonboots]

Collider wrote...

Wtf. These games have LGBT to begin with, which many companies would not dare to do, yet people feel it's insulting that they're behaving like a business.
...
And Dragon Age was released after Mass Effect 1.

I think ME1 was just fine, it's ME2 where the problem lies. And the problem I have is that Bioware games before ME2 consistently have gay and lesbian content equal to heterosexual content--the only one that really doesn't is KOTOR 1, but even that had Juhani. But ME2--

Like I said before--I don't want everyone to be gay or bi, I just want SOMEONE--who isn't an asari--to be.

Kelly. When you say that you almost seem to appear as if you've forgotten about Dragon Age.

??? Dragon Age isn't in Mass Effect, and the game itself doesn't consider Kelly an actual romance. What I'm saying is that I want a Mass Effect squad member who is a bisexual romance with equivalent content to heterosexual romances and not an asari copout.

Modifié par enormousmoonboots, 06 avril 2010 - 01:58 .

[Collider]

rynluna wrote...

Collider wrote...

rynluna wrote...
Manshep doesn't get any m/m options.  That's terrible.

Neither do 99% of other games. Yet Mass Effect 1 & 2 have lesbian content. If you think a game with lesbian content (as opposed to...?) is terrible for LGBT players I have to go WAT again.

I do happen to think it's terrible.

If you want terrible, look at the 99% of games that don't even have same sex content. Please don't say it's terrible for Bioware games. You need to put it into context.

  I'm not a gay male but I am looking at this if I were:  "Man, I'm so excited!  I heard there was s/s romance in Mass Effect!"

Ryn, I HIGHLY doubt that this gay person would hear that it had same sex content instead of just lesbian content.
I don't think for a second you can criticize a game or company because someone erroneously assumed something of their games that they never advertised and said. It's not Bioware's fault if they got erroneous information or believed the lie or false information of hearsay or their friends.

"Well crud, it seems they only have f/f romance in this game and wow they were planning on having m/m romance in it but it got scrapped." 

"Sigh, I guess I'll have to be a gay Commander Shepard who doesn't get to romance anyone while straight males, females, and lesbians get their romances."

OHNOE THE WORLD IS GOING TO END

[Ziggy]

 

Collider wrote...

rynluna wrote...
Manshep doesn't get any m/m options.  That's terrible. 

Neither do 99% of other games. Yet Mass Effect 1 & 2 have lesbian content. If you think a game with lesbian content (as opposed to...?) is terrible for LGBT players I have to go WAT again. 

Why do you keep inferring that because bioware has included little bits and pieces of lesbian (or female bisexual to be more accurate but not gay) romance in mass effect (a shadow of how heterosexuality romance is depicted), people who want same sex romances should be happy and shut up?

[jlb524]

@Collider



One of my points is that there is lesbian content in ME2 that I found offensive, yes. I would feel better about this if there was a decent f/f relationship in the game, on par with the f/m relationships with Thane, Miranda, Tali, Jack, Jacob, Garrus. There wasn't. I don't count Kelly and I don't count Samara as being on par with any of these six.



I'm not pushing for total equality, i.e. that since FemShep has 3 straight romance possibilities she should have 3 lesbian possibilities, and vice versa for MaleShep with m/m possibilities. I'm just asking for one in ME2.

[Mallissin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'd like to point out that neither Silk Fox, Liara, or Leliana were lesbain, nor were Sky or Zevren gay.

QFT

All bisexual.

[Maria Caliban]

Shandepared wrote...

DirtyVagrant wrote...

I don't think there is a 'gay gene' for genetic engineers to include or not include...

So it's a choice then? Oh boy, here we go.

I couldn't splice the 'trunk' gene from an elephant, replace the 'beak' gene of a chicken embryo with it, and end up with a bird that has a trunk. That's because there is no 'trunk' gene.

But that doesn't mean elephants choose to have trunks.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 06 avril 2010 - 02:10 .

[Xaijin]

Shandepared wrote...

DirtyVagrant wrote...

I don't think there is a 'gay gene' for genetic engineers to include or not include...

So it's a choice then? Oh boy, here we go.

Rather strong evidence that there is a slight genetic predilection, but the majority of credible evidence suggests that hormonal levels during fetal development are the primary decider. Such things could easily be controlled when delineated down to factors. As for expansion or collapse, you'd likely get neither. Those who wished their children a certain way would take necessary steps in either direction. Pretty likely you'd still have plenty of gay people, even if by design. with technology deciding childbirth parameters people would do damn well whatever they wanted to. You don't see many ugly people in ME. Wonder why.

Modifié par Xaijin, 06 avril 2010 - 02:06 .