536 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

enormousmoonboots wrote...
I think ME1 was just fine, it's ME2 where the problem lies. And the problem I have is that Bioware games before ME2 consistently have gay and lesbian content equal to heterosexual content--the only one that really doesn't is

Shattered Steel WOW! IT'S ****ING NOTHING
Baldur's Gate WOW! IT'S ****ING NOTHING
Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast 
WOW! IT'S ****ING NOTHING
MDK2 WOW! IT'S ****ING NOTHING
Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn WOW! IT'S ****ING NOTHING
Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal WOW! IT'S ****ING NOTHING
Neverwinter Nights WOW! IT'S ****ING NOTHING
Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide WOW! IT'S ****ING NOTHING
Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark WOW! IT'S ****ING NOTHING
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic WOW! IT'S ****ING NOTHING
Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood WOW! IT'S ****ING NOTHING
Mass Effect Galaxy WOW! IT'S ****ING NOTHING
Mass Effect WOW! IT'S ****ING NOTHING GAY[i]

Indeed.

Modifié par Collider, 06 avril 2010 - 02:09 .

[Collider]

Em23 wrote...
Why do you keep inferring that because bioware has included little bits and pieces of lesbian (or female bisexual to be more accurate but not gay) romance in mass effect (a shadow of how heterosexuality romance is depicted), people who want same sex romances should be happy and shut up?

I'm not saying they should shut up at all. I am disagreeing with some of the people who seem to think that Bioware is giving them the middle finger. I'm fully 100% in support of people wanting same sex romances and I hope gay males get someone to romance in ME3. I am against however the notion that Bioware is being disrespectful or that ME2 somehow creates a trend towards the elimination of same sex romances. Last I checked one single game did not mean a trend.

[Karstedt]

The Angry One wrote...

By the way most of both responses are complete non-answers, tangenting off into insistance that there's still a great amount choice, which has little to do with the actual question.
The only solid answer is that they want to "define" these characters, but no real reason is given for why these characters absolutely must be heterosexual.

I was going to say that... but I'm too late. Groundless yet likely speculation would suggest the answer to lie with the "big boys" degrading the experience to appeal to a wider audiance.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Shandepared wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Psychological studies I have seen state otherwise (stimulation studies, seems to be purely biological based and not a psychological/cultural factor, openess to what sexuality you are factor into those equations).  Whether or not it would be a gene that could be targeted?  Who knows, this is speculation on a science that hasn't been adapted in such a way for humans yet.

I think it would be targeted in many cases. I won't try to guess exactly how many. I do imagine a fair number of people would scan for genetic diseases and nothing else. However at the same time plenty of parents would want to pick and choose many aspects of thier children, and if they're going beyond genetic diseases it seems doubtful to me that they'd decide to neglect sexual orientation.

I don't doubt that there would be some of that, however for the most part it would be one of the least necessary things to write in or write out.

[Sigma Tauri]

rynluna wrote...
I do happen to think it's terrible.  I'm not a gay male but I am looking at this if I were:  "Man, I'm so excited!  I heard there was s/s romance in Mass Effect!"

"Well crud, it seems they only have f/f romance in this game and wow they were planning on having m/m romance in it but it got scrapped." 

"Sigh, I guess I'll have to be a gay Commander Shepard who doesn't get to romance anyone while straight males, females, and lesbians get their romances."

Speaking for myself as a gay male, I've accepted the idea that unless otherwise explicitly stated like Dragon Age, pursuing a m/m relationship is by default out of the question. So, I just capitulate to that fact.

I don't know how other gay males think of it though.

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
I'm just asking for one in ME2.

I realize and I've probably been too aggressive responding to you. If that is all you want and all you're saying now I could never disagree with you.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

 I am against however the notion that Bioware is being disrespectful or that ME2 somehow creates a trend towards the elimination of same sex romances. Last I checked one single game did not mean a trend.

I of course disagree with the disrespectful thing, as I found the interview linked in the OP disrespectful in the way these guys keep dodging the question.  I also found some of the 'lesbian' content in ME2 disrespectful.  Unfortuanely (or maybe fortunately depending on how you look at it) there's no gay male content in ME2 for any one to find disrespectful. 

I do agree that one game is not a trend, but I worry that ME2 will be the starting point for this trend.  I don't want this to happen, of course.  

[Collider]

enormousmoonboots wrote...
??? Dragon Age isn't in Mass Effect, and the game itself doesn't consider Kelly an actual romance. What I'm saying is that I want a Mass Effect squad member who is a bisexual romance with equivalent content to heterosexual romances and not an asari copout.

By your wording in what I responded to you, it almost seemed like you thought there was no lesbian non-asari romances to begin with. I also hardly think that them being Asari matters. At all. Really, it doesn't. Bioware can call say it's not F/F all they want, but it is.

[Agamo45]

Does every game have to have gays in it now to please you people?

[Nightwriter]

Collider, don't you think you're trying to make judgments about a homosexual persons's feelings from a heterosexual person's perspective? And that this might be a bit difficult?

You and I have got no clue what they're feeling. Look, I'm straight, and I walk around in a heterosexual bubble world completely unaware of these things. I didn't even know from her subtle hints that Leliana was bi, until a gay friend told me, and said it was obvious. Face it, straight people are a bit stupid about these things.

We saw nothing in the game to be offended by, of course we're going to look at homosexuals getting upset and think it's over nothing. Because we weren't offended. But you can't compare their experiences to your own. It's different for them. I just try to keep this in mind and keep my mouth shut about it.

[Mallissin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

DirtyVagrant wrote...

I don't think there is a 'gay gene' for genetic engineers to include or not include...

So it's a choice then? Oh boy, here we go.

I couldn't splice the 'trunk' gene from an elephant, replace the 'beak' gene of a chicken embryo with it, and end up with a bird that has a trunk. That's because there is no 'trunk' gene.

But that doesn't mean elephants choose to have trunks.

You actually probably could copy/paste genes like that and get a chicken with a trunk. I don't think they're saying a single gene causes it. A single gene doesn't cause much, actually. It's usually combinations of genes that create traits.

I seem to remember that most turkeys nowadays have chicken genes to increase their chest and thigh sizes. They've been deformed so much that the only way for farmed turkeys to mate now is by artificial insemination.

Edit note: I don't believe homosexuality is genetic, even after reading a number of studies that seem to prove otherwise.

Modifié par Mallissin, 06 avril 2010 - 02:16 .

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I'm just asking for one in ME2.

I realize and I've probably been too aggressive responding to you. If that is all you want and all you're saying now I could never disagree with you.

That is all I wanted.  Straight romancers can have 50 options for all I care as long as there is one s/s option for the female Shepard's and one option for the male Shepard's that is given the same amount of content and treated with the same dignity and respect as the 50 straight options.  

[Xaijin]

Agamo45 wrote...

Does every game have to have gays in it now to please you people?

who?

[Onyx Jaguar]

Mallissin wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

DirtyVagrant wrote...

I don't think there is a 'gay gene' for genetic engineers to include or not include...

So it's a choice then? Oh boy, here we go.

I couldn't splice the 'trunk' gene from an elephant, replace the 'beak' gene of a chicken embryo with it, and end up with a bird that has a trunk. That's because there is no 'trunk' gene.

But that doesn't mean elephants choose to have trunks.

You actually probably could copy/paste genes like that and get a chicken with a trunk. I don't think they're saying a single gene causes it. A single gene doesn't cause much, actually. It's usually combinations of genes that create traits.

I seem to remember that most turkeys nowadays have chicken genes to increase their chest and thigh sizes. They've been deformed so much that the only way for farmed turkeys to mate now is by artificial insemination.

Yes, basically on the biological level something "activates" such growth patterns.

[TeachingFellow]

I'd be curious to know the gender & sexuality make-up of the ME team. The fact of the matter is that the developers have more control over these issues than anyone's willing to fess up to. I mean, they squeezed a bit of lesbianism into KotOR, and you can't tell me that LucasArts isn't deeply involved in looking over every single bit of content created using Star Wars and determining its potential profitability. Bioware has built a great reputation as a company that produces high-quality products and fans of those products who would follow the developers into Hell itself.



That buys creative freedom.



The ME sexuality issue is the result of either two things: the developer caving to pressure rather than wielding their track record or the design team being predominated by straight men. A sexy race of blue women that can--and do--have sex with anything and everything? A hyper-masculine race of dinosaur-men who make 300 look like a Lifetime movie? Just admit it: the design team isn't comfortable with homosexuality beyond a lesbian aesthetic that appeals to their inner frat-boy.



I don't mean this as some sort of rhetoric; I'd just rather the developers just admit that they--or at least those who worked on these titles--aren't gay and don't really get it and/or approve of it. Don't look everyone in the eye and give some BS excuse about authorial control of character development. My Shepard is a lesbian--end of story. Not only that, but the game ALLOWS it AND makes it appalling. I refused to talk to Jacob since every line of dialog involved hitting on him. Really, I can't choose that a bit more? I decided to hit on Kelly, since she seemed nice enough, but the pay off is degrading to women everywhere--she became some kind of call girl, serving me whenever I demanded in a variety of positions (don't get me started on the fact that the relationship is built off of sexual harassment).



ME2 is one of the best games I've ever played. The development team for ME2, however, has proven itself to be one of the leading groups in gaming who insinuate that gay men and women don't deserve the same options and, in the case of gay men, don't even deserve to pretend to be heroes in a video game.

[Collider]

I also found some of the 'lesbian' content in ME2 disrespectful.

Do you think that every game with any amount of sexuality has to portray it in the upmost, most clean fashion? Why should lesbian content be put under a larger magnifying glass? There is plenty of instances in which heterosexual content in games has basically been mindless flings, prostitution, sexist, and plainly stupid. Look at Dead or Alive beach volleyball. If I were so inclined, I could say that the game, clearly aimed towards males, is suggesting that males are superficial pig headed morons who only think with their genitals and will buy a shoddy game just because of some amusing physics pertaining to a particular part of the female body. Actually, it seems they that company does think that way...but my point is that it's not as if heterosexual content as been portrayed in the best fashion either. Hell, as male Shepard, you can casually **** Jack as a one night stand. Why should lesbian or gay content be put under more scrutiny, then?

The ideal world would have it where neither gay or lesbian ANYTHING is considered particularly different than the heterosexual equivalent, or requiring of more criticism and analysis.

I do agree that one game is not a trend, but I worry that ME2 will be the starting point for this trend.  I don't want this to happen, of course. 

You can worry, but that's different from saying that Bioware is going in the wrong direction, when you only have one game to indicate so.

Modifié par Collider, 06 avril 2010 - 02:21 .

[Nightwriter]

Xaijin wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

Does every game have to have gays in it now to please you people?

who?

Do they mean us? They couldn't mean us...

[RyrineaNara]

Worng post!

Modifié par RyrineaNara, 06 avril 2010 - 02:22 .

[WilliamShatner]

Watch any E3 ME video and Hudson will go on about how it's YOUR Shepard and YOUR story, so this pre-defined character claptrap is backtracking BS.

[Onyx Jaguar]

RyrineaNara wrote...

Captain Bailey, Let see THAT NEWS REPORTER, Fai Dan a lot of them I would consider ugly.

Wrong thread?

[Onyx Jaguar]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Watch any E3 ME video and Hudson will go on about how it's YOUR Shepard and YOUR story, so this pre-defined character claptrap is backtracking BS.

Yes, pretty much.  Unfortunately the guy I was having that argument with left it seems.

[RyrineaNara]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...

Captain Bailey, Let see THAT NEWS REPORTER, Fai Dan a lot of them I would consider ugly.

Wrong thread?

Just realized I was posting in the wrong thread lol

[Nightwriter]

rynluna wrote...

Collider,

At the end of the day, I was offended at the way the big wigs of Bioware discussed S/S romance in Mass Effect 2.  I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything, nor am I ready to burn down Bioware's door but I just know that it has left a sour taste in my mouth.  I am very happy that as a female gamer who likes girls, I got the chance to romance Liara.  I feel terrible for being so happy when my gay friends or m/m romance supporters, get zilch.  This is all my opinion, I am speaking on behalf of myself.  I for one do not believe that ME2 is headed in the right direction for LGBT gamers and this is a forum for me to speak my mind on that.  Tis been a long day of school for me and so I hope I have worded things to the best of my ability. 

To be fair, it is not unreasonable to worry that Bioware's recent switch to EA and their subsequent tone-downage of homosexual content might be more than coincidence.

[TeachingFellow]

Games don't have to kiss the gay community's collective ass. Perhaps my favorite game for this is Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines. Throughout the game, you have opportunities to hit on members of both genders, regardless of your own. At times this is met with interest and at times revulsion, but the game allows it to happen and, while the characters may judge you, the game doesn't; it's a perfectly viable path through the game with various rewards and, if you are really pissed off about a character's reaction, you can kill him/her.



The key here? One of the developers was gay! It's not shoved in your face (most of these items are only available with the "Seduce" skill) and it's not candy coated (the first chance to do this is propositioning a guy for anonymous sex in a dark alley so you can drain him). We aren't asking for every game to be a pride rally or anything, but escapist entertainment should--at least in a role-playing game involving personalized characters--let us escape from the entrenched homophobia of our society.