536 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

Do you think that every game with any amount of sexuality has to portray it in the upmost, most clean fashion? Why should lesbian content be put under a larger magnifying glass?

For me, probably b/c I'm a lesbian who is used to seeing far more negative protrayls of my sexuality than positive ones in the media.  That's why I'm putting it under the magnifying glass.  Of course there are despicable portayals of straight sexuality but there are also plenty of positive protrayals around.  As a straight person, did anything relating to your sexuality offend you in ME2?

There is plenty of instances in which heterosexual content in games has basically been mindless flings, prostitution, sexist, and plainly stupid. Look at Dead or Alive beach volleyball. If I were so inclined, I could say that the game, clearly aimed towards males, is suggesting that males are superficial pig headed morons who only think with their genitals and will buy a shoddy game just because of some amusing physics pertaining to a particular part of the female body. Actually, it seems they that company does think that way...but my point is that it's not as if heterosexual content as been portrayed in the best fashion either. Hell, as male Shepard, you can casually **** Jack as a one night stand. Why should lesbian or gay content be put under more scrutiny, then?

Yes, you can casually **** Jack and look like a douche as a DudeShep, or you can listen to her and treat her as more than just a sex-object and have a good hetero relationship with her.  Or, you can just be friends with her and be in a hetero relationship with Tali or Miranda that was depicted positively.   

My point is, again, that there are no s/s relationships in the game on par with these straight relationships that counter-act the negative depictions of lesbian sexuality.  There are plenty of positive straight relationships that can counter-act DudeShep's banging of Jack douchery.

The ideal world would have it where neither gay or lesbian ANYTHING is considered particularly different than the heterosexual equivalent, or requiring of more criticism and analysis.

Of course, but the world we live in is far from ideal and it's not equal regarding depictions of homosexuality.  Again, I'm not necessarily against negative depictions of homosexuals as not everything is sunshine and bunnies in the world.  However, I get upset when positive depictions are lacking and when the negative depictions are used to make a character look 'edgier'.

You can worry, but that's different from saying that Bioware is going in the wrong direction, when you only have one game to indicate so.

I guess we'll just have to sit back and see where this goes then.

Modifié par jlb524, 06 avril 2010 - 02:36 .

[Collider]

rynluna wrote...

Collider,

At the end of the day, I was offended at the way the big wigs of Bioware discussed S/S romance in Mass Effect 2.  I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything, nor am I ready to burn down Bioware's door but I just know that it has left a sour taste in my mouth.  I am very happy that as a female gamer who likes girls, I got the chance to romance Liara.

Be offended at business practices in general, not Mass Effect. And that was one person who said that the Liara romance was not F/F. He also got a few other things wrong so he clearly did not know what he was talking about. In addition, developers on this forum have already stated that Bioware believes the Liara romance was F/F.

I feel terrible for being so happy when my gay friends or m/m romance supporters, get zilch.

Why should you feel terrible? You have nothing to do with it.
It's a video game, feeling terrible over a video game is really, really, over the top. One should feel terrible of human rights violations against homosexuality, not that there isn't gay content in Mass Effect. If need be, there is always Jade Empire and Dragon Age, both of which have fully fleged gay content. And the latter is very moddable so if you want M/M Alistair it's very easy to get.

I for one do not believe that ME2 is headed in the right direction for LGBT gamers and this is a forum for me to speak my mind on that.

ME2 has already been released so that doesn't quite make sense. I hardly think that one game is enough to make someone worry, nor is an indication of a direction.

[Ray Joel Oh]

JLB, I'm curious. As a lesbian, how do you feel about straight guys rooting for lesbian romances? Is it all just more support for a good cause, or does the fetishization cheapen it?

[Xaijin]

Yes, you can casually **** Jack and look like a douche as a DudeShep, or
you can listen to her and treat her as more than just a sex-object and
have a good hetero relationship with her.  Or, you can just be friends
with her and be in a hetero relationship with Tali or Miranda that was
depicted positively.   

My Ass. Jack damn near tears your head off.

"YOU'RE WITH WHO?!"

*zarch*

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...
For me, probably b/c I'm a lesbian who is used to seeing far more negative protrayls of my sexuality than positive ones in the media.  That's why I'm putting it under the magnifying glass.  Of course there are despicable portayals of straight sexuality but there are also plenty of positive protrayals around.  As a straight person, did anything relating to your sexuality offend you in ME2?

No, because I don't equate immoral or negative portrayals of sexuality as necessarily, if at all, a commentary on the orientation involved. Change the roles and make everyone who was heterosexual gay and I would not change my mind. Disrespect is only disrespect when it is INTENDED. Bioware doesn't INTEND to disrespect. Why should other media have to come into it? Does Bioware have an obligation to champion LGBT rights and portray them as would best serve the image of homosexuals? I would say no.

My point is, again, that there are no s/s relationships in the game on par with these straight relationships that counter-act the negative depictions of lesbian sexuality.

It's obvious that there are no lesbian romances of the calibur of the straight romances. That's been established long ago. so what are we really discussing?

Of course, but the world we live in is far from ideal and it's not equal regarding depictions of homosexuality.  Again, I'm not necessarily against negative depictions of homosexuals as not everything is sunshine and bunnies in the world.  However, I get upset when positive depictions are lacking and when the negative depictions are used to make a character look 'edgier'.

There is literally only one "edgy" romance with lesbian content and that is Morinth.
Liara = still loves Shepard. She's also in a powerful position, not many women are.
Samara = Paladin for justice, a pretty good portrayal of a female interested in other females. Even more so, you could say, in that she cuts the romance and sexuality short in favor of righting wrongs in the world. Comic books have plenty of LGBT superheroes in fact, that reminds me.
Kelly = denounce her all you want, the only thing that you could say is "negative" is that the romance may not be as serious as the other ones. For it to be negative you'd first have to establish that casual sexuality is wrong or negative. If you don't think so then I wonder why you think Kelly is a negative portrayal of lesbianism.

I guess we'll just have to sit back and see where this goes then.

Agreed. You will get your Liara in ME3, don't worry. It's very premature to be anxious.

Modifié par Collider, 06 avril 2010 - 02:45 .

[jtav]

I can't believe I'm agreeing with jib on something, but the lesbian (bisexual) options options are atrocious.

1) Samara has sworn off sex and romance.

2) Morinth is a sexual predator who rapes and murders her victims

3) Kelly is a walking "anything that moves" stereotype.

There are no positively portrayed bi/gay/lesbian human characters. Nef is sympathetic, but a victim. This is problematic.

[Collider]

Nightwriter wrote...
To be fair, it is not unreasonable to worry that Bioware's recent switch to EA and their subsequent tone-downage of homosexual content might be more than coincidence.

Only if you for some reason think that Dragon Age's lesbian romance with Leliana and gay romance with Zevran somehow don't count. Their romances are just as graphic as the other ones.

[jlb524]

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

JLB, I'm curious. As a lesbian, how do you feel about straight guys rooting for lesbian romances? Is it all just more support for a good cause, or does the fetishization cheapen it?

That's a good question.  Honestly, it depends on the intent of the straight guys rooting for them.  Some straight guys actually have respect for lesbians and lesbian relationships and don't necessarily like them just for the 'fetish' aspect of it.   Some straight guys don't even like them at all.

I've found that most of the straight guys I interact with on these forums that play and support f/f romances treat them with the same dignity and respect as they do the straight ones.  There's only maybe a handful that don't, but I just tend to ignore them.

[Collider]

jtav wrote...

I can't believe I'm agreeing with jib on something, but the lesbian (bisexual) options options are atrocious.
1) Samara has sworn off sex and romance.
2) Morinth is a sexual predator who rapes and murders her victims
3) Kelly is a walking "anything that moves" stereotype.
There are no positively portrayed bi/gay/lesbian human characters. Nef is sympathetic, but a victim. This is problematic.

Why does it matter whether they're human or not? Asari are basically human females with head tentacles, biotics, mind melding, ears that are not visible, and blue. That's about the only difference.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Collider wrote...

jtav wrote...

I can't believe I'm agreeing with jib on something, but the lesbian (bisexual) options options are atrocious.
1) Samara has sworn off sex and romance.
2) Morinth is a sexual predator who rapes and murders her victims
3) Kelly is a walking "anything that moves" stereotype.
There are no positively portrayed bi/gay/lesbian human characters. Nef is sympathetic, but a victim. This is problematic.

Why does it matter whether they're human or not? Asari are basically human females with head tentacles, biotics, mind melding, ears that are not visible, and blue. That's about the only difference.

Collider I do not exactly see how your question fits in with that comment.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Well there still is no M/M romance in the ME games and that is disappointing.

[Collider]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Collider wrote...

jtav wrote...

I can't believe I'm agreeing with jib on something, but the lesbian (bisexual) options options are atrocious.
1) Samara has sworn off sex and romance.
2) Morinth is a sexual predator who rapes and murders her victims
3) Kelly is a walking "anything that moves" stereotype.
There are no positively portrayed bi/gay/lesbian human characters. Nef is sympathetic, but a victim. This is problematic.

Why does it matter whether they're human or not? Asari are basically human females with head tentacles, biotics, mind melding, ears that are not visible, and blue. That's about the only difference.

Collider I do not exactly see how your question fits in with that comment.

He said it's problematic that there is no "positive" portrayed HUMAN bi/gay/lesbian characters. I'm asking why it even matters. If Bioware made an all male race that looked like human dudes just with bald heads, purple eyes, and red skin, and it would still be gay if male shepard romanced one.

[Onyx Jaguar]

hmm, I seem to have misread that post

[Xaijin]

What I don't get is, if it's COMPLETELY OPTIONAL why does it matter?



As FemShep If I HAD to shack up with Jacob after that hee haw bad sequence, I would be pissed.... but I don't. I don't even have to go there. I don't even have to TALK to him except for loyalty and upgrades if I felt like being a jerk.

[Ray Joel Oh]

Collider wrote...

He said it's problematic that there is no "positive" portrayed HUMAN bi/gay/lesbian characters. I'm asking why it even matters. If Bioware made an all male race that looked like human dudes just with bald heads, purple eyes, and red skin, and it would still be gay if male shepard romanced one.

I think because it's still something they can hide behind with PR.  "Oh, but she's not a woman, she's 'asexual'."  I mean of course that justification is ridiculous, but that they would feel there is a need for a justification at all is a copout.

[SnakeStrike8]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sometimes, in some of our games, we are going to have a defined character with a more defined view. Almost like a third-person narrative — where Mass Effect is more in that vein, Dragon Age isn't in that vein; you could see the differences between the two. It's just part of the design and the choices made for each game. It doesn't mean that we've in anyway changed our philosophy toward enabling choice. We love giving players choice, and we are going to continue to enable that for future games. That's a commitment for some of our franchises. For some other franchises we've had more defined characters and sort of approaches to things, and they've had a more defined personality and a more defined approach to the way they've proceed through the game and the world.

I like this. It's definite and direct; Bioware doesn't want same-sex stuff in this game and Mr. Muzyka comes out and says so in as many words. Great stuff.

[Collider]

Ray Joel Oh wrote...
I think because it's still something they can hide behind with PR.  "Oh, but she's not a woman, she's 'asexual'."  I mean of course that justification is ridiculous, but that they would feel there is a need for a justification at all is a copout.

Business do copouts all the time. You can't expect a business to be deadly honest.

And he was wrong about other things too, it sounded like he did not even play the game.

I still fail to see why it matters what they call it. It's still lesbian, no matter how many times (just one so far AFAIK) some PR dude says otherwise.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

No, because I don't equate immoral or negative portrayals of sexuality as necessarily, if at all, a commentary on the orientation involved.

I agree this is the case when the orientation is heterosexual, but not for homosexual, bisexual, transgendered, etc.  Heterosexuals aren't oppressed anywhere in the world today while the others are.  That brings morality into this discussion, I believe.

Change the roles and make everyone who was heterosexual gay and I would not change my mind. Disrespect is only disrespect when it is INTENDED. Bioware doesn't INTEND to disrespect. Why should other media have to come into it? Does Bioware have an obligation to champion LGBT rights and portray them as would best serve the image of homosexuals? I would say no.

No, but I would hope they wouldn't portray them negatively in lieu of portraying them positively.

I don't know what there intentions were, but I'm just making it known I'm unhappy with the content the did include.  I hope to convice them to intend on doing other things.

There is literally only one "edgy" romance with lesbian content and that is Morinth.

I was actually referring to the point I made about Jack earlier...I guess I wasn't clear with that.

Liara = still loves Shepard. She's also in a powerful position, not many women are.
Samara = Paladin for justice, a pretty good portrayal of a female interested in other females. Even more so, you could say, in that she cuts the romance and sexuality short in favor of righting wrongs in the world. Comic books have plenty of LGBT superheroes in fact, that reminds me.
Kelly = denounce her all you want, the only thing that you could say is "negative" is that the romance may not be as serious as the other ones. For it to be negative you'd first have to establish that casual sexuality is wrong or negative. If you don't think so then I wonder why you think Kelly is a negative portrayal of lesbianism.

None of these are of the same calibur as the straight romances, which we agree on.   About Kelly, I personally don't have a problem with casual sex or Kelly's portrayal, but you see the crap that gets said about it by people on these forums.  Most are disgusted by her.  It seems to me it's pretty bad if it's creating that kind of reaction from people. 

[Ray Joel Oh]

Collider wrote...

Ray Joel Oh wrote...
I think because it's still something they can hide behind with PR.  "Oh, but she's not a woman, she's 'asexual'."  I mean of course that justification is ridiculous, but that they would feel there is a need for a justification at all is a copout.

Business do copouts all the time. You can't expect a business to be deadly honest.

And he was wrong about other things too, it sounded like he did not even play the game.

I still fail to see why it matters what they call it. It's still lesbian, no matter how many times (just one so far AFAIK) some PR dude says otherwise.

Sure, it's not exceptional, but it's still unfortunate, and something that they should be willing to work away from.  Hopefully it won't be long until those sorts of conversations are unneccessary.

[Onyx Jaguar]

The whole situation seems anti-progressive in my opinion and I cannot respect that. If you push the envelope you keep doing it, the moment you stop shows weakness.

[Nightwriter]

Collider wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
To be fair, it is not unreasonable to worry that Bioware's recent switch to EA and their subsequent tone-downage of homosexual content might be more than coincidence.

Only if you for some reason think that Dragon Age's lesbian romance with Leliana and gay romance with Zevran somehow don't count. Their romances are just as graphic as the other ones.

Didn't jlb already say that DA:O was already in production by the time of the switch? The project was already underway, so to speak.

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...

Collider wrote...

No, because I don't equate immoral or negative portrayals of sexuality as necessarily, if at all, a commentary on the orientation involved.

I agree this is the case when the orientation is heterosexual, but not for homosexual, bisexual, transgendered, etc.  Heterosexuals aren't oppressed anywhere in the world today while the others are.  That brings morality into this discussion, I believe.

In some societies homosexuality is encouraged. There is some culture in Africa where homosexual activity is required as a rites of passage.

Just because homosexuality is prosecuted in some societies does not mean that every portrayal of homosexuality is a commentary on the orientation in particular.

No, but I would hope they wouldn't portray them negatively in lieu of portraying them positively.

You realize this is quite subjective...I'm sure you do, but I really don't know how many other LGBT people would say that the lesbian content was portrayed negatively. I'll give you Morinth, but it's not as if you can't sleep with Morinth as male, not mention the Jack renegade ****ing.

I was actually referring to the point I made about Jack earlier...I guess I wasn't clear with that.

? Rejecting female Shepard does not really strike me as positive or negative. I could also totally see people complaining that Jack is bisexual given the fact that's she, on the surface, appears to be the archetypal bad girl who sleeps around and is violent, and butch. Would that be good for the image of bisexuals or women interested in women?

None of these are of the same calibur as the straight romances, which we agree on.   About Kelly, I personally don't have a problem with casual sex or Kelly's portrayal, but you see the crap that gets said about it by people on these forums.  Most are disgusted by her.  It seems to me it's pretty bad if it's creating that kind of reaction from people.

You should decide for yourself. It's just popular to diss on Kelly. It's a meme. Memes aren't known for being logical or the best portrayals of humankind.

Modifié par Collider, 06 avril 2010 - 03:07 .

[Collider]

Nightwriter wrote...

Collider wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
To be fair, it is not unreasonable to worry that Bioware's recent switch to EA and their subsequent tone-downage of homosexual content might be more than coincidence.

Only if you for some reason think that Dragon Age's lesbian romance with Leliana and gay romance with Zevran somehow don't count. Their romances are just as graphic as the other ones.

Didn't jlb already say that DA:O was already in production by the time of the switch? The project was already underway, so to speak.

That does not matter. They could have easily taken homosexual content out. They had roughly 2 years to do so, but look at the game. It's still very gay.

[Mallissin]

jtav wrote...

I can't believe I'm agreeing with jib on something, but the lesbian (bisexual) options options are atrocious.
1) Samara has sworn off sex and romance.
2) Morinth is a sexual predator who rapes and murders her victims
3) Kelly is a walking "anything that moves" stereotype.
There are no positively portrayed bi/gay/lesbian human characters. Nef is sympathetic, but a victim. This is problematic.

Like the bisexual options in Dragon Age weren't a tad weird too. Liliana was a religous nut (crazy chicks make the best loving, amiright?) and Zevran was the "anything that moves" stereotype as well.