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[Raanz]

After discussing this in the other forum, and seeing this thread pop up, I began to wonder if their decision had more to do with the NPC's back stories and less to do with Shepard. Maybe the Mass Effect that the creators envisioned did not include a gay/bi Tali, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, or Thane.

Just musing.

[Halmiriliath]

Raanz wrote...

After discussing this in the other forum, and seeing this thread pop up, I began to wonder if their decision had more to do with the NPC's back stories and less to do with Shepard. Maybe the Mass Effect that the creators envisioned did not include a gay/bi Tali, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, or Thane.
Just musing.

Indeed. And we also need to bear in mind that non-human concepts of relationships and sexuality haven't really been explored in any great detail as of yet, bar the concept of 'purebloods' in Asari culture and Salarian reproduction contracts. Our perception of sexuality is very particular and attitudes toward homosexuality are the result of centuries/millenia of changing opinion regarding non-heterosexual relations, so there is no reason why Turians, for example, shouldn't have drastically different ideas regarding it. I think it might also be worth considering a possible stigma attached to homosexuality in Krogan and Quarian culture, given their small numbers and the importance of reproduction for their survival. Something worth exploring in Mass Effect 3, perhaps?

With that said, there isn't really much reason why there aren't any male human homosexual options, unless we are given a proper justification for it. Maybe the Alliance clings on to that old American 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, but that shouldn't necessarily extend to Cerberus.

Modifié par Halmiriliath, 06 avril 2010 - 04:49 .

[jlb524]

Halmiriliath wrote...

I think it might also be worth considering a possible stigma attached to homosexuality in Krogan and Quarian culture, given their small numbers and the importance of reproduction for their survival.

Right, but then quarian/non-quarian sexual relations would be just as stigmatized and problematic for the reasons you described, but we know that got added to the game.  Or, the krogan/asari relations that clutter the game.  Also problematic.

[Nightwriter]

jlb524 wrote...

Halmiriliath wrote...

I think it might also be worth considering a possible stigma attached to homosexuality in Krogan and Quarian culture, given their small numbers and the importance of reproduction for their survival.

Right, but then quarian/non-quarian sexual relations would be just as stigmatized and problematic for the reasons you described, but we know that got added to the game.  Or, the krogan/asari relations that clutter the game.  Also problematic.

Good point.

[jlb524]

Raanz wrote...

After discussing this in the other forum, and seeing this thread pop up, I began to wonder if their decision had more to do with the NPC's back stories and less to do with Shepard. Maybe the Mass Effect that the creators envisioned did not include a gay/bi Tali, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, or Thane.
Just musing.

The writers dictate the direction the characters go in and their backstories, not the other way around.  It's not like the writers sat down and said, 'Garrus is just a straight guy so I can't write him gay.  Sorry.'  Garrus is fictional.

Given any of these characters, any one of them could have been available for same-sex romance as none of them are clearly 100% straight.  If the writers wanted to include a s/s romance, they could have easily written it in.

[Halmiriliath]

jlb524 wrote...

Right, but then quarian/non-quarian sexual relations would be just as stigmatized and problematic for the reasons you described, but we know that got added to the game.  Or, the krogan/asari relations that clutter the game.  Also problematic.

A good point - I'd forgotten about that. It did come across that Quarian/non-Quarian relationships were accepted, but perhaps there is some resistance to it within the Migrant Fleet - accusations of abandoning/betraying the fleet etc.  Perhaps the individualistic nature of the Krogan means that there is less emphasis on maintaining numbers in the community, with the Krogan with the strongest headbutt deciding what is law. But Wrex's policies of consolidation, rebuilding and breeding could add an interesting dimension to all of this that is well worth exploring, I feel. Anything that adds more depth to the game is welcome, in my opinion, and an understanding of non-human perceptions of sexuality and relationships would be definitely worth it.

[Xaijin]

The writers dictate the direction the characters go in and their
backstories, not the other way around.  It's not like the writers sat
down and said, 'Garrus is just a straight guy so I can't write him gay. 
Sorry.'  Garrus is fictional.

Given any of these characters, any
one of them could have been available for same-sex romance as none of
them are clearly 100% straight.  If the writers wanted to include a s/s
romance, they could have easily written it in.

No.

I never write a character like that. And all you have to do is look at Jacob, people's reaction to Kaidan and Ashley to see why you don't bolt on crap like that.

No.

No.

Writing at its worst.

Modifié par Xaijin, 06 avril 2010 - 05:06 .

[eternalnightmare13]

I could care less about gays and same sex relationships, but Ray's answer is utter bull****. To say Shep is more ''defined'' then the main character in DA? LOL.

[RiouHotaru]

Okay seriously, this is just bugging me. Why does everyone INSIST that Liara is a lesbian romance and that "Bioware isn't fooling anyone"? This has been gone over multiple times. She's not a woman, no matter how many female sexual characteristics or gender labels people use on her. Bioware isn't giving us a wink and a nod and thinking they're being sneaky.



Yes I am aware of the fact you all think the explanation stinks of BS, but is it so hard believe that's what Bioware actually thinks and believes? Kelly might be Getting Crap Past The Radar (I love TVTropes) but Liara isn't.

[GodWood]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Okay seriously, this is just bugging me. Why does everyone INSIST that Liara is a lesbian romance and that "Bioware isn't fooling anyone"? This has been gone over multiple times. She's not a woman, no matter how many female sexual characteristics or gender labels people use on her. Bioware isn't giving us a wink and a nod and thinking they're being sneaky.

Yes I am aware of the fact you all think the explanation stinks of BS, but is it so hard believe that's what Bioware actually thinks and believes? Kelly might be Getting Crap Past The Radar (I love TVTropes) but Liara isn't.

Not this shit again...

[jlb524]

The Liara sex/gender debate really has nothing to do with what's going on with this thread anyways.

[AM50]

I think it doesn't matter. The devs have their minds made up in the ME franchise. It waa like that in ME2 and more than likely it will stay that way in ME3. I am not going to say whether I agree with one side or another, they have the right to craft the game however they want. *Kanye Shrug* Jus sayin..

[WilliamShatner]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Okay seriously, this is just bugging me. Why does everyone INSIST that Liara is a lesbian romance and that "Bioware isn't fooling anyone"? This has been gone over multiple times. She's not a woman, no matter how many female sexual characteristics or gender labels people use on her. Bioware isn't giving us a wink and a nod and thinking they're being sneaky.

Yes I am aware of the fact you all think the explanation stinks of BS, but is it so hard believe that's what Bioware actually thinks and believes? Kelly might be Getting Crap Past The Radar (I love TVTropes) but Liara isn't.

RTFC.

[Yetisan]

the gave in to comeplaints and just spinning some story around it.

Europa says hi!

[RiouHotaru]

I'm just saying Liara can't be used as part of the same sex argument because it's not a lesbian romance.

I'm all for the inclusion of same sex romances myself.  And actually, I understand the OP's article.  It would be a bit cheap if say, the Tali/Garrus romance went the same way with both genders using the SAME romance dialogue.  I mean, there wouldn't be any to distinguish the one romance from the other.  And really, to me, that wouldn't be right.  If one of the existing characters was made into a same sex option, say Garrus (I'll use him because I have a huge mancrush on him), I would WANT there to be different dialogue and a different feel to the romance, rather than a rehash of the FemShep lines.  I'd want something that would be different and unique.

On a more humorous note too, I would never be able to take a ManShep/Garrus romance seriously if Mark Meer said "We could test your reach...and my flexibility." in the same tone of voice as Jennifer Hale.  I would never be able to keep a straight face.  Ever.

[JamieCOTC]

Both have a definite future in politics.

[WilliamShatner]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm just saying Liara can't be used as part of the same sex argument because it's not a lesbian romance.

And what you're saying is wrong, so stop saying it.

[AM50]

To the OP, I liked the interview but this thread is going to degrade the way they always do: into bickering, name calling, trolling, flaming, then it gets locked.



I can understand why people would be pissed about this but its a done deal folks. BioWare is not suddenly going to change ME3 because of it. Casey and Ray have to skirt the question because they don't want to have an explosion about this. Nobody is ever going to say why SS romances aren't in. Ever. It would be best to just move on to be honest.

[jlb524]

AM50 wrote...

To the OP, I liked the interview but this thread is going to degrade the way they always do: into bickering, name calling, trolling, flaming, then it gets locked.

This thread has been civil for 21 pages.  There's nothing wrong with this thread or discussing these issues even if you think it's pointless.

[AM50]

jlb524 wrote...

AM50 wrote...

To the OP, I liked the interview but this thread is going to degrade the way they always do: into bickering, name calling, trolling, flaming, then it gets locked.

This thread has been civil for 21 pages.  There's nothing wrong with this thread or discussing these issues even if you think it's pointless.

Civil for 21 pages so far. I was only pointing out how the trend usually goes. I think its pointless because BioWare isn't going to change it. I can understand why some are upset at the skirting of the issue by Ray/Casey and the exclusion of Same-sex romances but I don't think anything is going to change to be honest. I meant no hate. I was just pointing out my view on it.

[RiouHotaru]

WilliamShatner wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm just saying Liara can't be used as part of the same sex argument because it's not a lesbian romance.

And what you're saying is wrong, so stop saying it.

That's your opinion, that I'm wrong, it's not a stated fact.  Don't act like it is.

[GodWood]

AM50 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

AM50 wrote...

To the OP, I liked the interview but this thread is going to degrade the way they always do: into bickering, name calling, trolling, flaming, then it gets locked.

This thread has been civil for 21 pages.  There's nothing wrong with this thread or discussing these issues even if you think it's pointless.

Civil for 21 pages so far. I was only pointing out how the trend usually goes. I think its pointless because BioWare isn't going to change it. I can understand why some are upset at the skirting of the issue by Ray/Casey and the exclusion of Same-sex romances but I don't think anything is going to change to be honest. I meant no hate. I was just pointing out my view on it.

Well I doubt Bioware would of made Garrus a romance option if weren't for the fan outcry for it.
The fans do hold some power...

[Onyx Jaguar]

RiouHotaru wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm just saying Liara can't be used as part of the same sex argument because it's not a lesbian romance.

And what you're saying is wrong, so stop saying it.

That's your opinion, that I'm wrong, it's not a stated fact.  Don't act like it is.

Biology is biology.  For Liara its possible that it isn't considered a S/S romance because the paramaters for that species don't exist, but for a human Female Shepard it is a S/S romance.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Nightwriter wrote...

Oh no, I wasn't referring to this thread only. Seems like a lot of people ask why they can't have f/f relationships, and I hardly hear anyone saying they want m/m relationships.

But most of the time they're saying this because they want to romance Tali, or even Jack, but can't.

I've been vocal about the lack of M/M relationships in the ME games, and since they still have F/F relationships even if they have been swepped under the rug, the lack of M/M relationships is unfortunate and doesn't seem like it will be reconciled. 

[klossen4]

WilliamShatner wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

I'm just saying Liara can't be used as part of the same sex argument because it's not a lesbian romance.

And what you're saying is wrong, so stop saying it.

Actually did they not say that before.