66 réponses à ce sujet

[asaiasai]

While i am not an atheist as i believe there are many roads to god i do consider any and all religions to be nothing more than toll booths in the road. I can not say i go out of my way to enrage the Chantry but i do make a point of ignoring them as often as i can. I will still do the Chantry Board quests as i want the XP but there are some i will not do at all, like hunt down maleficars in Awakenings. If they seem to be for the betterment of the citizens i will do them. As for being purposely rude to them, i am not purposely rude to anyone even those that deserve it, i find it is much more fun to irritate them by killing them with kindness.



Asai

[Daerog]

Eh, I actually like religions. I enjoyed learning about the Chantry and the Qun. I also like history, so seeing the Chantry gave me many moments of remembering times in European history, which was fun. Creators were okay.

While people are stating their beliefs, I'll toot my own horn as well. I'm Roman Catholic, and I'm still waiting for Benedict XVI to teach us force lightning.

If you did not get that joke, the Pope looks like Emperor Palpatine.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 06 avril 2010 - 11:28 .

[Emerald Melios]

Anakha6 wrote...

Maybe it's testament to the story writing. But anyway, I'm an atheist and I actually found the chantry to be a very oppressive religion, and I actually found myself going out of my way, and loosing leliana approval, to insult it's members. Anyone else get a bit angry with it?

Not exceptionally so, though none of my characters are exactly fond of the Chantry, and usually with a more skeptical look. Although....from a roleplaying standpoint I'd say my City Elves are more ambivalent and open-minded than say, Magi Wardens.

[Seagloom]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I would say the whole goal of the writers is to keep religion mysterious. I remember discussions from the early development phase of the game where they said this was a goal. Several devs. said specifically one of the things they hated most about D & D was the rulebook where the gods had stats and the fact that the gods were killable. Sure the gods were uber-powerful, were lvl 50 fighter/mage/everything with 25 stats in everything, but the problem is they had STATS. That made them very concrete and made religion very .... matter-of-fact. Why worship something with STATS? That could be killed?

I don't know if they really have an agenda to change how people think about religion in our world, but I do think they want to handle religion in their (fantasy) world in a certain way that enables them to write the kind of story they want to write.

I recall this from the old forums as well. I don't remember the exact details, but I think it had less to do with stats and more with D&D gods being known to exist. The idea of gods that grant their priestesses actual powers and meddle in mortal affairs didn't work with the tone they wanted for Thedas. Religion in DA was supposed to be about true faith in the wake of no concrete evidence. After all, if there was undeniable proof of the Maker's existence then being an athiest in Thedas would be willful ignorance. It was something along those lines anyway. That was quite awhile ago.

As far as the Chantry itself goes, I feel a little rage... but no more than I do for many other groups. One of the nice things about Dragon Age is you get to see an ugly side to everything. No belief or culture comes up smelling like roses. We are always presented with both good and bad elements of each, and I like that.

In the Chantry's case I'm irked by the same things a few others here are. They can be stubborn, holier-than-thou and elitist. What keeps me from feeling total rage at the church are that we also meet priestesses and templars that strike me as genuinely good people wanting to do the right thing by others. We also get to see zealots that fly off the handle when they recognize your beliefs are not theirs.

One person brought up the priestess in Ostagar. She is a good example of the intolerant kind of Chantry cleric. But then we see others such as Mother Mallol, who does express worry over a noble character's athiesm but doesn't hate them because of it. We also meet Brother Genitivi, a scholar with a healthy dose of skepticism; and Brother Burkle, who disagrees, but like Mallol, doesn't hate your character over it.

The Chantry as an organization *does* seem corrupt and unjust. There are numerous examples of that in their history and how they keep templars under control. Still, I find it difficult to blindly hate them all, and instead change my feelings based on the attitudes of the individual my character is speaking to.

Modifié par Seagloom, 06 avril 2010 - 01:23 .

[vhatever]

It's a video game.



And you aren't "cool" to be an atheist, nor intelligent, no matter what garbage the lefty TV pumps into your brain pan.

[CybAnt1]

Back to the Chantry....



What strikes me as unusual about Thedas is that people take magic as a matter of fact, but religion is in doubt. Magic isn't "real" in our world either. Of course, it's interesting that the source of magic on Thedas seems to be the world of dreams, the Fade ... isn't a computer game a trip into the world of dreams itself ....



It's the relationship of magic and religion in this world that I find the most troubling. On the one hand, I'm not saying the Chantry & the templars position is totally unjustified. I've seen the horrors that can happen in the tower when mages become abominations, or in the Alienage where maleficars do their worst. There is a legitimate argument that perhaps magic needs to be a bit controlled.



But on the other ... I have to say I find it disturbing the ease with which they will "tranquilize" mages and turn them into emotionless zombies, how "annulment" (i.e. mage genocide) can be invoked so quickly & easily, and how ruthlessly they will hunt down "apostates" (I don't even like the word!) like Anders.



The ability to use magic seems to be genetic. People with the talent seem to give birth to children with it. Of course, it also seems to be a "hidden" recessive gene, that's why it seems to show up "by surprise" in children like Connor. However, there also seems to be increasing evidence that lyrium can unlock magic-like powers in everybody, not just those born mages: and despite the lore that dwarves are apparently magically 'dead' I had no problem giving my dwarf warrior the templar or spirit warrior specializations, which use magic-like powers.



I love the way Justice reacts to things with lyrium; he's drawn like a moth to the flame. We've seen from our visits to the Fade that it exists in both worlds -- there and here. My working theory is somehow the mineral lyrium is something that links the two worlds; therefore making magic possible. Dwarves may have grown "insensitive" to it because living underground they're exposed to the mineral all the time.



Anyway, the danger of magic seems to be that if you can't control your emotions, then your emotions control you - in the form of demons -- notice how they're named, as I've said, after most of the medieval seven deadly sins: desire, sloth, rage. It's interesting that the demons seem to represent mankind's negative emotions, and the benevolent Fade spirits mankind's virtuous ones. I think the "tranquil" process of removing emotion is used for precisely this reason.

[Anakha6]

vhatever wrote...

It's a video game.

And you aren't "cool" to be an atheist, nor intelligent, no matter what garbage the lefty TV pumps into your brain pan.

Excuse me? I am an atheist because I logically analyse religion and compare it to what I have learned about science and find it to not make a lick of sense, cool doesn't play into it. And don't try to claim that you have never gotten angry at a video game, because everyone has.

[CybAnt1]

Frankly, real-life arguments about religion belong in the Off-Topic forum.



How religion is presented within the game, and used as a plot device, is on topic.



And yes, discussing how religion works in a video game, is just as valid as discussing how it's used in a book, a movie, or a work of art. We're not in the era of Pong anymore.



Games are as capable of dealing with it as other media. At least, some types of games, like story-driven RPGs, are.

[k9medusa]

I love when a game or a movie can have many different meanings, like the movie "The Matrix" and religion is one example how did something very close of layering of ideas.... I do know if this was a goal of Bioware, but this is one to get people to talk about some issues of today.

[CybAnt1]

My observation is that the Chantry is clearly based on the medieval Catholic Church but with one strange twist I've noted before.



The leaders are all female! In the medieval Catholic Church, it was mostly dominated by men, women could join nunneries, but that was about it.



Of course, their "Jesus" figure (Andraste) is female. Maybe that's why. I find it interesting that Andraste took on the Tevinter Empire directly. Jesus was crucified by the Roman Empire, but never challenged it as directly as Andraste does.



It's interesting how elves react to the Chantry religion, because we are told one reason Andraste challenged the Imperium was their enslavement of the elves. Yet, on the other hand, the Chantry rebukes them for their "pagan" gods.



One other aspect I find interesting: she was supposed to have had several sons, but the Chantry claims they all died shortly after her without heirs. Yet there are others who still claim descent from her. The Chantry refuses to acknowledge them.

[k9medusa]

Good points and yes that is interesting ... Some might say that "Jesus" had some children as well and that is what the "Holy Cup" is and the "Church" does not see them either...

[Bann Duncan]

k9medusa wrote...

Good points and yes that is interesting ... Some might say that "Jesus" had some children as well and that is what the "Holy Cup" is and the "Church" does not see them either...

I'm not Christian but I'm pretty sure I remember reading that that "historical theory" found in the Da Vinci Code dates back to the 1960s at earliest.

[nikki191]

not to disrespect anyones real world beliefs but the chantry in this game and how everyone assumes you believe, reminds me of what it would be like in europe in the middle ages.

i am impressed with how bioware portrayed the chantry, etc in game. you dont know if the chantry are right, you dont know if andraste really was a prophet or just crazy and charismatic or even if the maker exists

Modifié par nikki191, 06 avril 2010 - 04:41 .

[MarkyBoy147]

me and my demon baby are dismantling the chantry in DA2

[TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain]

@markyboy lol funny XD



But the parallels are very very striking to what christianity is in real life.



Some more parallels can be seen with the Crusades against the Qun and Elven cultures.



Considering the qun is alot like Muslim culture in that everyone has a place and women are kept from roles of war and kept from the sight of others is interesting. The Dalish elves to me seem alot like the Druids and other pagan religions whom worshiped nature and animals and whom soon after were discovered by the roman catholic church were torn assunder and dispursed, all though some Druids still remain, it has lost its influence.



The Avvar barbarians whom were also wiped out by both The chantry and Tevinter are alot like the Vikings whom were forced to convert. Tevinter being Rome, being that their worship of the old gods is alot like the roman and greek worship of the many gods.

[k9medusa]

Is Bioware just retelling our history in the real world or are they telling us something between the lines? If so, what are they saying?

[Cat Lance]

I'm not atheist, but I kind of had it in for the chantry before the game ever even got in my hands. It's fun playing my Dalish elf, because it's totally in character for her to not believe in the chant of light and all that. I think I'll have to save playing a human noble for last. I think only my mage or city elf characters would actively hate on the chantry though. (Or if I made a human hating Dalish.)

k9medusa wrote...

Is Bioware just retelling our history in
the real world or are they telling us something between the lines? If
so, what are they saying?

It isn't a retelling of our own history and from what DG has said on the subject it isn't any sort of commentary on our society either. It's it's own world and things were created to make sense there. So, even though the chantry reminds me of the christian religion, it isn't actually related to it in any way.

Modifié par Cat Lance, 06 avril 2010 - 05:45 .

[Jamie7791]

CybAnt1 wrote...

It's interesting how elves react to the Chantry religion, because we are told one reason Andraste challenged the Imperium was their enslavement of the elves. Yet, on the other hand, the Chantry rebukes them for their "pagan" gods.

One other aspect I find interesting: she was supposed to have had several sons, but the Chantry claims they all died shortly after her without heirs. Yet there are others who still claim descent from her. The Chantry refuses to acknowledge them.

I may be totally wrong about this -- but it was my understanding that Andraste wasn't trying to free the elves.  The elves simply happened to be an oppressed group that joined her cause as a way to free themselves. I thought Andraste stood up to the Tevinter Imperium to stop the mages (i.e. "Magic exists to serve mankind and not to rule over him"). 

Did I totally misunderstand all that?  Was she an elf-lover?

[k9medusa]

Was she human or an elf who married a human chief? If I remember right, she was a slave and escape and marry the war lord and the marker wanted her later on.

[k9medusa]

Cat Lance wrote...

I'm not atheist, but I kind of had it in for the chantry before the game ever even got in my hands. It's fun playing my Dalish elf, because it's totally in character for her to not believe in the chant of light and all that. I think I'll have to save playing a human noble for last. I think only my mage or city elf characters would actively hate on the chantry though. (Or if I made a human hating Dalish.)

k9medusa wrote...

Is Bioware just retelling our history in
the real world or are they telling us something between the lines? If
so, what are they saying?

It isn't a retelling of our own history and from what DG has said on the subject it isn't any sort of commentary on our society either. It's it's own world and things were created to make sense there. So, even though the chantry reminds me of the christian religion, it isn't actually related to it in any way.

That might be true, but what can learn from the "story" anyways?

BTW, I love your sig and it is one of the best ones I have seen....

Modifié par k9medusa, 06 avril 2010 - 06:24 .

[Cat Lance]

Oh, yeah, I didn't mean there wasn't anything of value that could be seen in the story, but that it wasn't intended as a social commentary. *noddles*



And thankee! Which part is it you like?

[k9medusa]

""Death Happens," As we like to say. And when I get paid for it, death happens more often." This made me laughted A lot of my evil char think the same way => I also like "Necros are Green; we Reduce, Re-Use, and Reanimate" I can see graveyard with a sign saying that as one "drive" in and what a great slogan. It is so so true! //I liked it so much, I added to my quotes list I am making



It may not be intended as a social commentary, but still treat as such... I am just wonder what other people are thinking about that idea.

[theczaroftsars]

TheGriffonsShallRiseAgain wrote...

@markyboy lol funny XD

But the parallels are very very striking to what christianity is in real life.

Some more parallels can be seen with the Crusades against the Qun and Elven cultures.

Considering the qun is alot like Muslim culture in that everyone has a place and women are kept from roles of war and kept from the sight of others is interesting. The Dalish elves to me seem alot like the Druids and other pagan religions whom worshiped nature and animals and whom soon after were discovered by the roman catholic church were torn assunder and dispursed, all though some Druids still remain, it has lost its influence.

The Avvar barbarians whom were also wiped out by both The chantry and Tevinter are alot like the Vikings whom were forced to convert. Tevinter being Rome, being that their worship of the old gods is alot like the roman and greek worship of the many gods.

A little off-topic but, you picked the right word when you said culture, but the wrong one when you said Muslim.  In some ARABIC cultures, yes women are kept from the sight of others as well as from roles of war, many Arabic traditions have been mistakenly incorporated into Islam by the Arabs themselves and some of the misunderstandings of Islam by others were orginally confused with Arabic traditions and customs.  In Muslim religion there is nothing that says women should be kept from those things. 

The Qun religion also has little or no similarities to Islam. 

[Cat Lance]

I believe DG once described the Qun as similar to a sort of militant Buddhism.