114 réponses à ce sujet

[Tinnic]

Let us for a moment assume that Loghain did really have to leave Ostagar or rather, had he fought, Feralden's army would have been even more decimated and it really was Alistair and The Warden's fault for not getting to the beacon as soon as possible. However, would Loghain do to Maric what he did to Cailan if it was Maric on the front lines.

Couple of things to consider,

1. Loghain's character was as shaped by Maric as Maric's character was shaped by Loghain. Most importantly, it was Maric who convinced Loghain to put Feralden first. Even before Maric himself, something Loghain had not necessarily been doing before the point in The Stolen Throne, where the conversation took place.

2. Loghain didn't like Cailan. He thought him a fool. An inexperienced and weak warrior, given to flights of fancy and too reliant of the Grey Wardens. An order Loghain did not like. Now given Calain had to leave Maric's sword locked in a chest because it was too powerful for him to use... actually that probably doesn't mean anything but Cailan couldn't use his father's sword.

3. Maric did like the Grey Wardens and allowed the order to return to Feralden based on his experience with the order. An experience during which, I might add, he saw even the less glamorous side of the order that included many of their members willing to do anything, ANYTHING, to stop a blight.

4. Loghain's chief complaint with Cailan was his desire to allow Orlais to send troops and their much bigger contingent of Grey Wardens. Would Maric do that? Not sure, but he certainly didn't have the same hate level for Orlesians that Loghain did.

So remembering these things, do you think Loghain would abandon Maric?

Modifié par Tinnic, 06 avril 2010 - 03:32 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Nah, their bromance was simply too tight for that. Even with Maric's admonishment that Loghain should never put one man above the entire kingdom, I think as far as Maric was concerned, he would disobey that request.



Maric did not trust the Orlesians, though he wasn't as venomous as Loghain was. Maric sure as hell would not have let Orlesian troops into the country, at least not without some major back up plan and insurance policy should they end up overstaying their welcome. He'd probably look elsewhere for Blight allies, and would have been far more cautious as far as tactics and strategy. If Duncan and Loghain told him to wait for reinforcements, he would have done so.

[SaiWisinski]

IMO no since Loghain respected Maric ALOT and after you beat Loghain in a duel he says your the strongest man(or maybe woman) he's seen since Maric(or something along those lines) and then he let's himself get exectuted without another fight because he knows Feralden is in good hands(yours sort off). So if he would die for someone he didn't even know(but says he's the strongest man he's seen since Maric) outside of war. Why wouldn't he die with Maric a well respected friend and father of his step son in war.

[CalJones]

Hard to say. After West Hill, Maric made him promise not to risk everything for one man (even if he was king), though Loghain only reluctantly agreed. I believe that promise shaped his decision not to try and save Cailan.

However, the main difference is that Maric and Loghain respected each other more than Loghain and Cailan did, so I'm not sure that Maric would have ignored Loghain's advice as Cailan did. Maric did pull some crazy stunts but was far more of a realist than Cailan.

If Loghain did leave Maric to die, you can bet they would have discussed the possilibity previously and prepared for it.

[jpdipity]

Maric told Loghain not to risk everything for one man. However, the battle at Ostagar was not lost or hopeless, Loghain simply left.



I think at this point, Loghain's paranoia has reached a high enough level that he would have left Maric, too. He thought Maric a fool many times over. He respected Maric's charisma and ability to lead men, but not his fighting prowess, tactical abilities or even senisibilities. Cailan seemed very much his father's son to me.

[Sarah1281]

When I asked Loghain something about why Maric was a great king he responded that if Maric asked him to, he'd charge into the Fade itself. To me, that sounds like at the very least he'd lead a group to get Maric out of there.

[yellowpride]

I think the main difference is that Loghain respected Maric more than he did Cailan, and vice versa. He considered Cailan to be a "child playing at war," and Cailan didn't give him any reason to think otherwise. Maric, on the other hand, was a man Loghain respected, who would have cooperated with him in coming up with the plan, meaning Loghain would have felt better about it going in.



Also, Loghain saw Cailan as at best expendable and at worst dangerous to the country, while he saw Maric as a vital part of the political and military stability of Ferelden. So, if they had ended up with the same plan, which they likely wouldn't have, Loghain would have sacrificed anything, including himself and his men, to make sure Maric survived.

[Thor Rand Al]

Yes I believe Loghain would of done the same thing to Maric. And it's funny that this thread is here because I just mentioned in another thread about what Flemeth told Maric about Loghain. "Keep him close, and he will betray you. Each time worse than the last."

I wonder if Flemeth foresaw Loghain doing this. It definitely would explain a lot. But this thread isn't about Flemeth so I won't detour from that lol.

But yes if it would of been Maric instead of Cailan, Loghain would of done the same thing. That's how bad his hatred of the Orlesians is. He couldn't see past his hatred. If he even cared remotely about Maric or even Rowan then he would never of done that to Cailan. He saw red and there was no stopping him from seeing past his hatred once he heard that Orlai would be taking a step onto Ferelden soil.

[Tinnic]

I am honestly not certain. I do not think Loghain would have left Maric, no matter what Maric told Loghain to do but I am not 100% certain. I think with Cailan the case was more complicated. Not only did Loghain have zero respect for Cailan, I think Loghain's "Orlesian danger" senses were working overtime with Cailan, remembering that we did find letters in Ostagar that could be suggesting that Cailan was about to divorce Anora and marry Empress Celene of Orlais. So I think the equation is fairly complicated. However, I am inclined to believe that Loghain let Cailan, the Grey Wardens and the half of Feralden's army that was with Cailan die without even trying to turn the tide of battle because he simply didn't like Cailan. Of course, I am not certain. Maybe Loghain isn't either.

Modifié par Tinnic, 06 avril 2010 - 03:34 .

[CalJones]

jpdipity wrote...
Maric told Loghain not to risk everything for one man. However, the battle at Ostagar was not lost or hopeless, Loghain simply left.

We don't actually know this. We can't see the battlefield. All we know is 1) the number of darkspawn had been increasing with each battle, and 2) the beacon was lit late. We don't know how late, but we do know we missed the signal.

Loghain maintains that he made the right choice if you take him back to Ostagar. It's entirely possible that the battle wasn't winnable. It's also possible that Loghain only perceived it as such due to his views on Cailan and the Orlesians.

[Sarah1281]

You know, this thread title is rather misleading.

[Vicious]

We don't actually know this. We can't see the battlefield. All we know is 1) the number of darkspawn had been increasing with each battle, and 2) the beacon was lit late. We don't know how late, but we do know we missed the signal.

No Loghain-hater will agree with you. Ever. They know more about him and his actions and motivations as well as the condition of Ostagar and the battle that occured than even the developers know.



That said, Cailan's bodyguard and friend in RtO says Cailan knew the battle was probably a death sentence, which means he chose to fight on the front lines for morale purposes. Loghain's men might have turned the tide, might not have, but he obviously did not think it was worth it.





Anyway all vitriol aside, I can't blame anyone for hating Loghain. For being a multifaceted character he got bar none the most heavy handed introduction of any Dragon Age character ever.



"Yes Cailan... a glorious day for us all.... MUAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAAAAA" basically.

[Tinnic]

Vicious wrote...
That said, Cailan's bodyguard and friend in RtO says Cailan knew the battle was probably a death sentence, which means he chose to fight on the front lines for morale purposes. Loghain's men might have turned the tide, might not have, but he obviously did not think it was worth it.

In that way you can say that Cailan was following the example of his father. Maric often fought on the front lines, especially in the begining/shortly after his mother's death, as he felt that he was one of the few things he could do. Loghain, Rowen and especially Arl Rendorn at the time being more responsible for strategy and the general day to day running of the rebel army. Perhaps Cailan felt the same. He wasn't as good as Loghain in leading the army or battle strategy. He wasn't as good in running the country as Anora was and to top it all off, his bastard younger half-brother was one of the fabled Grey Wardens, remembering that Cailain idolised the Grey Wardens. King or not, I am sure Cailan felt he had things he needed to prove.

Maybe that alone annoyed the hell out of Loghain. I mean, Cailan was clearly much, much older then Maric was when Maric was thrust into leadership position. Maybe Loghain just felt that Cailan would be more prepared for it. Although one would suspect that Cailan had about the same sort of issue being the son of the larger then life Maric and Saviour as Maric himself had in being the son of Moira the Rebel Queen. But I guess in the end Loghain just decided, fairly or unfairly, that Cailan did not have Maric's strength, his ability to inspire men or even his blind luck!

As for whether Loghain could do something at Ostagar... well we don't really know. All we do know is that Duncan looked up at the moment of his death and saw that the beacons were lit and the impression was given that Duncan died wondering why Loghain's men had not come. Now was it the fault of Alistair and the Warden? If they had been a little quicker with the beacon lighting would Loghain not have left? One can also argue that in the middle of battles, things can and will go wrong. Surely a general of Loghain's experience and talent didn't need the beacons lit or rather, he could have adjusted the battle strategy on the fly should he really wanted to. He choose not to. Thus we get the impression that Loghain did not do all he could to win at Ostagar. Whether that's true or not, we don't know and we will never know.

Modifié par Tinnic, 06 avril 2010 - 09:58 .

[Alyka]

Vicious wrote...


That said, Cailan's bodyguard and
friend in RtO says Cailan knew the battle was probably a death sentence,
which means he chose to fight on the front lines for morale purposes.
Loghain's men might have turned the tide, might not have, but he
obviously did not think it was worth it.

Also the
letters you find in RtO, one of them is forged and guess who did it?
Loghain.Or at least thats what the description hints at. He even admits
it when you bring him along and find them.He goes on about how Cailan
was going to toss aside Anora and marry the empress of Orlais.

Combined
with this and Cailan being his best friends son who is letting the
Orlesians help,that's like a huge slap in the face.Cailan basicly played dumb so Loghain wouldn't be any wiser to what he was planning, but Loghain is smarter than he seems.

In The Stolen
Throne ( I'm only half-way through it), Loghain was forced to watch his
mother being raped and killed by the Orlesians, his father died trying
to defend the rebel camp they traveled with, and Maric's mother was
killed by them.Not to mention Meghren was evil.
Loghain's hatred for the Orlesians runs deep and he has every right to be angry.
I think Loghain would've left Maric in the tower IF he tried to do the same
thing Cailan did.
In Loghains eye, Maric stands for freedom from the Orlesians.If Maric
would've sided with them, Loghain would've seen that as betrayal and him
throwing away all that they worked hard for.
But Maric would have never done such a thing.Then
again, that was another time.Things change.And Cailan believed he was
trying to do the right thing for peace and to stop the blight.
If Maric was late in lighting the beacon, Loghain probably would have thought that something was wrong and he would've saved him.
That's just my opinion.

Modifié par Alyka, 06 avril 2010 - 01:18 .

[jpdipity]

CalJones wrote...

jpdipity wrote...
Maric told Loghain not to risk everything for one man. However, the battle at Ostagar was not lost or hopeless, Loghain simply left.

We don't actually know this. We can't see the battlefield. All we know is 1) the number of darkspawn had been increasing with each battle, and 2) the beacon was lit late. We don't know how late, but we do know we missed the signal.

Loghain maintains that he made the right choice if you take him back to Ostagar. It's entirely possible that the battle wasn't winnable. It's also possible that Loghain only perceived it as such due to his views on Cailan and the Orlesians.

Exactly my point which perhaps I could have worded differently.  Loghain didn't know if the battle was lost or hopeless - he could not see the battefield.  Loghain simply left without knowing one way or the other; so, he quit the field and left Cailan to likely death regardless of how well or poorly the battle was progressing.   He did not leave because he thought the battle was lost was the point I was trying to make.

Modifié par jpdipity, 06 avril 2010 - 01:44 .

[Addai]

imported_beer wrote...

Is Loghain capable of betrayal- yes. But as TC suggests, Loghain did have good reason to be very VERY suspicious of the Orlesians and any trust placed in them.

Maric was also beginning to make overtures to the empress of Orlais, so I would have to say that under the right circumstances, Loghain would have betrayed Maric just as he did Cailan.  In fact, it seems the story was pointing that way with Flemeth's prophecy.  Ostagar is not the only thing to consider- the poisoning of Eamon shows that even prior to Ostagar, Loghain was laying groundwork for treason.

[Maximus741000]

According to Gaider, Eamon's poisoning was just insurance and not designed to actually kill Eamon but make Cailan see sense that his plan on facing the darkspawn with a meager army. I don't think Loghain would have left Maric because he was much more sensible than Cailan and would have heeded the need for more reinforcements, especially if Duncan was there among the Wardens. Essentially, all of what occurred was basically the result of a rather badly engineered back up plan, not to mention the fact that he just did not trust the grey wardens by default, because most of the ones were very new to the Ferelden order and not enough to form a tactically dependable army.

[Costin_Razvan]

No Loghain-hater will agree with you. Ever. They know more about him and his actions and motivations as well as the condition of Ostagar and the battle that occured than even the developers know.

Yep they do. let aside that DG himself that the darkspawn at Ostagar were far more then anyone believed there would. Let aside the fact that Cailan's honor guard, who had ever reason to hate Loghain, agrees that the battle was lost before it begun.

So ye. At that point I stopped arguing with Loghain haters.

IMO Loghain would have NEVER left Maric. Ever. Not in a million years.Not unless expressedly ordered by Maric and even so it would haunt him.

Loghain takes his oaths seriously. If the situation at Ostagar had been the exact same but with Maric king, then you can bet he would have left him. Admittedly he would felt far more regret then he did for leaving Cailan ( if he felt any ) but he would do it.

Why do you think he gave up Rowan? Why do you think he persuaded Maric to confront Kathriel and thus kill her? Because it was what his oath to Maric demanded of him.

I do not think Maric would have been as naive and foolish as Cailan was to accept aid from Orlais. Wardens certainly, but chevaliers? Never. Maric might be inclined to allow ambassadors from Orlais to come in Fereldan, he is even inclined to allow the wardens to come back. But he would never allow another Orlesian ARMY inside his borders.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 avril 2010 - 03:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maric would have never gotten himself into the same situation. And had he, he would have been able to convince Loghain and give him concessions and reassurances.

And I will leave it at that before I am involved in my 192740170th Loghain debate thread.

[Xandurpein]

The whole question really contains a paradox. Would Loghain betray Maric whome he respected so much? One of the reasons Loghain respected Maric so much was in my opinion that he did NOT do the things that Cailan did. Maric had a tendency to let his chivalrous side get the better of him. Leaving the Army on his own at the river Dane was maybe the stuff of Legend, but it was not exactly what a general ought to do, but he had a cooler head and a lot more wisdom than Cailan.

[Addai]

Maximus741000 wrote...

According to Gaider, Eamon's poisoning was just insurance and not designed to actually kill Eamon but make Cailan see sense that his plan on facing the darkspawn with a meager army.

 It doesn't really matter if it was intended to kill him or not.  You don't go around poisoning people to prove a point. 

I don't think Loghain would have left Maric because he was much more sensible than Cailan and would have heeded the need for more reinforcements, especially if Duncan was there among the Wardens. Essentially, all of what occurred was basically the result of a rather badly engineered back up plan, not to mention the fact that he just did not trust the grey wardens by default, because most of the ones were very new to the Ferelden order and not enough to form a tactically dependable army.

The battle plans at Ostagar are really immaterial.  Ostagar was the means Loghain exploited to get rid of Cailan, but if he had pursued diplomatic relations with Orlais, Loghain no doubt would have found another way to take him out.  In that, Cailan was on the same course as Maric, so I really don't see the end result being any different.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 avril 2010 - 03:22 .

[Xandurpein]

Addai67 wrote...

Maximus741000 wrote...

According to Gaider, Eamon's poisoning was just insurance and not designed to actually kill Eamon but make Cailan see sense that his plan on facing the darkspawn with a meager army.

 It doesn't really matter if it was intended to kill him or not.  You don't go around poisoning people to prove a point. 

I don't think Loghain would have left Maric because he was much more sensible than Cailan and would have heeded the need for more reinforcements, especially if Duncan was there among the Wardens. Essentially, all of what occurred was basically the result of a rather badly engineered back up plan, not to mention the fact that he just did not trust the grey wardens by default, because most of the ones were very new to the Ferelden order and not enough to form a tactically dependable army.

The battle plans at Ostagar are really immaterial.  Ostagar was the means Loghain exploited to get rid of Cailan, but if he had pursued diplomatic relations with Orlais, Loghain no doubt would have found another way to take him out.  In that, Cailan was on the same course as Maric, so I really don't see the end result being any different.

You forget that there is lot more to the relationship between Loghain/Maric and Loghain/Cailan than the political views. Maric and Loghain had by virtue of their relationship a communication that would have allowed them a greater chance to reach an understanding. Maric could  possibly find the words to reach Loghain if he thought an alliance with Orlain was necessary, as well as empathize with Loghain enough to find ways to overcome his fears. Loghain respected Maric enough that he would listen better.
Loghain and Cailan could not communicate with each other at all. Loghain was old a fearful, Cailan was young and impetous. Cailan simply dismissed Loghain's objections as irrelevant and Loghain in turn found Cailan immature and dangerous.
I think the conflict between Cailan and Loghain was as much about a total lack of communication as the actual issues and in that respect Loghain would act very differently to Maric and Cailan in similiar situations.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 06 avril 2010 - 03:52 .

[RazorrX]

Yes and no.



Yes because the reasons for Loghain leaving Calain to die are what would drive him to leave Maric to die.



1. Calain had invited Orlais to help. Not only the Orlesian Wardens, but 4 divisions of Lancers.

2. Calain was on VERY good terms with Orlais. In RtO it is shown that he is courting the Emperess and was thinking of dumping Anora for her.

3. Calain was under the 'influence' of the Wardens. Wardens who came originally from Orlais.



See the underlying reason? Orlais. Loghain is pathalogical in his hatred/paranoia over Orlais. Nothing and No one comes before that.



If Maric had done any of the things Calain did (Regarding Orlais) Loghain would have left him to die as fast as he did the son - the only son of the woman he (Loghain) Supposedly loved.





No because Maric would not have been so easily led into that trap. By the end of The Calling you can see that there is a distance growing between Loghain and Maric. Maric is keeping his own council more and more, and going against Loghain's wishes. Maric would either have had Arl Eamon's troops with him OR would have watied for the Orlesian Wardens. Most likely both. Loghain would not have dared to turn back the wardens at the borders if Maric had been alive.



But No more because *if* Loghain had left Maric to die, Loghain would NEVER have been able to become regent, nor lead Ferelden at all. He would not have had any tie to the throne, and he would be seen as the man who let the great king die. Loghain knew this. Maric was the beloved king of the people - The Landsmeet would have called for Loghains head.

[jpdipity]

Xandurpein wrote...

You forget that there is lot more to the relationship between Loghain/Maric and Loghain/Cailan than the political views. Maric and Loghain had by virtue of their relationship a communication that would have allowed them a greater chance to reach an understanding. Maric could  possibly find the words to reach Loghain if he thought an alliance with Orlain was necessary, as well as empathize with Loghain enough to find ways to overcome his fears. Loghain respected Maric enough that he would listen better.
Loghain and Cailan could not communicate with each other at all. Loghain was old a fearful, Cailan was young and impetous. Cailan simply dismissed Loghain's objections as irrelevant and Loghain in turn found Cailan immature and dangerous.
I think the conflict between Cailan and Loghain was as much about a total lack of communication as the actual issues and in that respect Loghain would act very differently to Maric and Cailan in similiar situations.

Maric and Loghain did not have the best communication either.  They discussed things, but I don't think that they ever came to an understanding on anything that had to do with Orlais or the Grey Wardens.  Maric was negotiating with Orlais, had Orlesians in the palace, allowed the Grey Wardens back in Fereldan, left with the Grey Wardens at their request - all of this done against Loghain's wishes. 

I doubt that Loghain and Maric would have come to some sort of understanding if the same circumstances were in place with Maric as were Cailan.

Modifié par jpdipity, 06 avril 2010 - 05:15 .